cat cam 808's

16th October 2007, 00:08

will these pass the mot on emissions?

16th October 2007, 08:36

Heard people struggling with emissions with 708s tbh

16th October 2007, 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulless

Heard people struggling with emissions with 708s tbh

i thought 708's were fine after a map?

16th October 2007, 08:58

Speak to saxo180, he was mapped and 708'd up.

Couldnt pass MOT

16th October 2007, 09:05

oh right. well i'm not looking at cams yet, will be getting it done in the new year hopefully, and will probably go for the newman cams.

16th October 2007, 09:07

My Advice ~ Cam it straight After an MOT, then you have atleast a year of fun.

16th October 2007, 09:09

thats a good point, but i've just had my mot and then after buying a new push bike at the weekend and xmas coming up and renewal of insurance in january, cant really afford it at the moment.

16th October 2007, 12:05

What price do cams start at as i would like some but dont want to spend loads.

Emissions isnt a problem for me as mine is classed as a kit car and can have up to 3% woooooooo.

16th October 2007, 12:06

Kam-Racing sells 708s for approx 330.

16th October 2007, 18:15

do you have to then un - cam it for MOT time then or what

16th October 2007, 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonezy

do you have to then un - cam it for MOT time then or what

no you slip the tester a few quid

708s can have probs. anything higher it aint going through

16th October 2007, 18:22

ahh gotcha, im sure you cant do that these days cos of the computer jobbies that govern MOT's these days

16th October 2007, 18:24

same with my cat. my tester will write down that it got put on for when its tested to cover himself. so everyones a winner

16th October 2007, 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by bullit

same with my cat. my tester will write down that it got put on for when its tested to cover himself. so everyones a winner

Save a lot of hassle eh

Whats the cam profile of 708s? 270?

16th October 2007, 18:41

not that much. 26 something. rush go custom

16th October 2007, 18:48

Thnk rush needs to get his finger out his ass before he goes custom at all lol.

Somebody does 270 cams, think its the piper 285s? I forget.

16th October 2007, 18:51

newman do a close to 270, i know the PH3 is 264.

16th October 2007, 18:53

Not too sure on the qwality of Newman cams. I know Pug1off used them in
their white 16v S2 Rallye..

Will go custom like Bullit said, just need to go out and by a king size twix
then I can grind away!

16th October 2007, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by rushy_23

Not too sure on the qwality of Newman cams. I know Pug1off used them in
their white 16v S2 Rallye..

Will go custom like Bullit said, just need to go out and by a king size twix
then I can grind away!

haha, there was a group buy on here a while ago for newman cams, alot of people went for it i think, ask them and see what they think.

from what i've heard they aren't too bad.

16th October 2007, 18:55

I better be quite before Toad starts moaning at me haha

16th October 2007, 18:57

Custom? {shakes head}

Rush, you looking to double your current budget set for engine modifications???

16th October 2007, 19:07

toad, what cams you got?

16th October 2007, 19:08

Toads got 708s. Im not going custom dude dont worry!

16th October 2007, 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Custom? {shakes head}

Rush, you looking to double your current budget set for engine modifications???

custom cats

16th October 2007, 19:13

no 809's wont pass emissions with a legit mot'er

16th October 2007, 19:29

How much are all the ones listed above?

Sorry im a noob to this lol

16th October 2007, 19:30

just find a dodgy MOT bloke give him 20-30 quid extra job done they are about everywhere

16th October 2007, 19:34

the 809's are about £400?? but dont forgret you have to buy solid lifters and uprated or double vavle springs.
also theres no point in putting these cams in unless your running a very high spec head and throttle bodies.

16th October 2007, 19:38

What would people suggest i fit to mine, emissions arnt a problem as its classed as a kit car hehe.

Will have 421 straight through and filter.

16th October 2007, 19:45

Being honest, I would only consider stupid lift cams when I know I have litterally
thousands to spend on an engine and will be tracking it regularly.
Either that or if I have some real good engine knowhow so I can do most the work
myself.

708s or similar would be more than good enough to put a big grin on your face!

16th October 2007, 20:01

Where can you get 708's from what else is needed when you fit them remap etc?

16th October 2007, 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonVTS

Where can you get 708's from what else is needed when you fit them remap etc?

kam racing. new cambelt. othere things depend on milage,

16th October 2007, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

the 809's are about £400?? but dont forgret you have to buy solid lifters and uprated or double vavle springs.
also theres no point in putting these cams in unless your running a very high spec head and throttle bodies.

Exactly! And don't forget the pistons too. There's just no more room if want a wilder cam that 708s.

Rush, WTF. How did you know I was going to moan at you. Here's a moan for telling me I was about to moan! - FFS! Why is the weather so shit!

I wasn't aware someone failed an MOT with 708s. Maybe the mapping is a bit dodge? I think the powerband of 708s is 3000 - 7600 is it not? MOT don't test above 3000 RPM IIRC, so I don't see why the emissions would be excessive. The map might be a little off, running rich low down...

16th October 2007, 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Exactly! And don't forget the pistons too. There's just no more room if want a wilder cam that 708s.

oh yh i forgot about pistons.
with 809's your power band would be from 5.5 to about 8.k and is that usable on the road... i personnaly dont think so.
if its a road car then do what rushy said and bang some 708's in,it would be a lot cheaper and it would still make te car fast as f**k

16th October 2007, 22:14

(watch this guys I will get Toad to screw now)

I still want forged pistons with my 708s/piper 285s, also want new veniers, pulleys
and a new belt fitted...

16th October 2007, 22:16

you may aswell go custom then. with some new springs. so your in between 708s and 809

16th October 2007, 22:17

Even with 708s though, you still feel the rear shift of power around 5500 RPM, and to be fair, that's not stupidly high, so the car still maintains it's driveability IMO. In the high gears you can be caught out if you don't drop it down a gear, but in 2nd, you can happily boot it at 3000 RPM and it will pickup nicely. Also, if you are pulling away in 1st, you have to rev it, or it will bog down quite a lot....

16th October 2007, 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by rushy_23

(watch this guys I will get Toad to screw now)

I still want forged pistons with my 708s/piper 285s, also want new veniers, pulleys
and a new belt fitted...

I feel like Jules from Pulp Fiction, when Vincent tells him he's "about to blow" - Well, I'm a mushroom-cloud-layin' motherfucker, motherfucker! Every time my fingers touch brain, I'm Superfly T.N.T., I'm the Guns of the Navarone! IN FACT, WHAT THE FUCK AM I DOIN' IN THE BACK? YOU'RE THE MOTHERFUCKER WHO SHOULD BE ON BRAIN DETAIL! We're fuckin' switchin'! I'm washin' the windows, and you're pickin' up this nigger's skull!

LOL!

16th October 2007, 22:26

lol toad, you alrite mate

16th October 2007, 22:27

You abusive cunt, this is a family forum, one day my kids will read about catcams
and see this mess of a thread

Custom cams sound pricey! Ive got my spec written down on some toilet paper
somewhere now, cant be changing it!

16th October 2007, 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

lol toad, you alrite mate

Obviously not.

16th October 2007, 22:43

custom cams are pricey.. usually unnecessary too as there are lots of race cams out there that are more than enough for most.
No reason why 708 won't get through an MOT if correctly mapped

16th October 2007, 22:53

Kam maybe you know mate, what profile is the 708s, and is there any out
there that are nearer a 270 profile?

16th October 2007, 22:59

i think the duration is 256
go on camshafts on the side menu, then peugeot then the engine is tu5j4
dunno if link works but if it does look for the part with the number ending in 708

http://www.catcams.be/800x600/mainframe.htm?english

16th October 2007, 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by rushy_23

Kam maybe you know mate, what profile is the 708s, and is there any out
there that are nearer a 270 profile?

have a look here for the breakdown of the cam

http://www.kam-racing.com/product_in...roducts_id/749

they are the equivelent to a '285' cam really.

16th October 2007, 23:20

285 "profile" or piper 285. Piper are gay the way they do cam stuff.

16th October 2007, 23:29

The maximum lift and the duration at 1.00mm is also important when choosing a cam

Although you can't get more then 10mm of lift on standard pistons, beware those with 708's i had 3 bent valves on standard pistons. And this wasnt noticeable untill the engine was apart, so better off changing pistons, as 708's are on the limit of standards

16th October 2007, 23:30

Hehe I like the sound of that mate, only limit! Like my bank account

17th October 2007, 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtr130

The maximum lift and the duration at 1.00mm is also important when choosing a cam

Although you can't get more then 10mm of lift on standard pistons, beware those with 708's i had 3 bent valves on standard pistons. And this wasnt noticeable untill the engine was apart, so better off changing pistons, as 708's are on the limit of standards

Sounds to me like your cam timing may have been dangerously out at some point then, as there's no way the valves would strike the pistons.

What do you mean by the lift and duration at 1mm? 1mm of what?

I think most "fast road" camshafts for out cars are around the 262 degree duration...

17th October 2007, 10:14

Very interested in getting some in the new year now so how much would i be looking to have some 708's fitted with everything needed?

Will a remap be required as i have already has one lol?

17th October 2007, 10:19

To get the full POW out of the cams yea a remap will be needed. Headwork
is a good mod to go alone side it I hear many many times too. Then obviously
breathing mods.

17th October 2007, 10:29

Indeed...

An exhaust system is THE most important, and ditch the cat too, or get a sports cat. A manifold is very important too. Then there's the air intake. A better, less restrictive filter is required.

All the above are MUST HAVES before installing a set of camshafts like 708s. A remap is vital, as the stock ECU will not be able to make the required changes on its own to handle the increased fuelling required. Also, there's a lot more to it than just fuelling...

Headwork is a good idea, you will see gains, but it's costly. I would recommend headwork if you are planning to change the intake for ITBs or the like.

17th October 2007, 10:31

Toad - The master of organising your finances/responsibilities

17th October 2007, 10:37

toad, you say "don't ditch the cat too, or get a sports cat", what do you mean?

do you mean don't get a rolling road with a de-cat on?!?!

17th October 2007, 10:38

Oops, TYPEO! Thanks for pointing that out. I'll correct it now...

17th October 2007, 10:39

I reckon he means get rid of the cat or fit a sports cat.

17th October 2007, 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by rushy_23

Toad - The master of organising your finances/responsibilities

Sorry mate.

Just trying to help out folk where I have gone wrong in the past...

17th October 2007, 10:46

haha, thats what i thought, then i read the post and became confused, haha.

de-cat ftw.

17th October 2007, 10:52

Yeah, I would have thought trying to map a car on a dyno with a cat would be quite tricky would it not?

17th October 2007, 10:53

yeah i reckon it would.

cat saying be friendly to the environment
cams like fook off mr.cat.

17th October 2007, 10:58

I don't like to think that I'm independantly killing off the enviroment by running my car, I do care for the enviroment, but I'm no tree hugger either. lol

I make sure I do my best to recycle as much as possible, and don't over use electricity, lol! I have a guilty conscience mate.

17th October 2007, 10:59

De-catted already and it can stay that way for the mot to hehe

17th October 2007, 11:05

lmao Toad.

I dont go out my way to destroy the environment either, hate people that litter, isn't hard to stick rubbish in the bin and i also try to recylce all that i can.

but would rather have that extra 2bhp than the cat tbh.

plus, the cat is all but ineffective in the first 8-10 miles, so therefor actually causes you to use more fuel in this distance, than if you didn't have one.

17th October 2007, 11:36

As previously mentioned mine didn't pass the MOT with 708s and a remap, but that may be due to the fact I have headwork by LAD.

With a change back to standard cams and ecu it flew through so can only put it down to cam/map combi it wouldn't pass.

Still have the mapped ecu and cams, and as mine has just passed an MOT I'm going to whack them back in as soon as I can (also have a very handy new MOT contact should I have any further problems

)

17th October 2007, 11:39

woop woop,
what headwork had LAD supposedly done Craig?
Notice much difference if you've ever dragged/drove another VTS?

17th October 2007, 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulless

woop woop,
what headwork had LAD supposedly done Craig?
Notice much difference if you've ever dragged/drove another VTS?

Not driven another VTS so don't know! It was the evo180 conversion

You'll have to lend me yours for a week to rag aroung and I'll report back

17th October 2007, 11:43

lol ~ lend you my el rapid girly color Saxo?

You not taken it to Pod or anything then?

17th October 2007, 11:45

Still, it should pass... It might be the map, but who knows... ?

Did you get good results on any dynos after the work?

17th October 2007, 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Still, it should pass... It might be the map, but who knows... ?

Did you get good results on any dynos after the work?

Was meant to be 180! from LAD. I had a load of teething problems when I bought the car so gave it a good service and check over, changed their cams to 708s and had remap done at same time.

Had consistant 150-152bhp

Was suggested there may be a problem with the ECU so tempted to have the one I have in at the moment remapped when the cams are back in to see if that makes a difference.

Worth noting I paid a little extra and had a live map done and not a static one

Karl - been to York and got 15.2s on standard cams/ecu. Probs quickest non cammed vts of the day

17th October 2007, 11:54

what was that Stripped One seat and no cage?
What wheels?

17th October 2007, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by saxo180

Was meant to be 180! from LAD. I had a load of teething problems when I bought the car so gave it a good service and check over, changed their cams to 708s and had remap done at same time.

Had consistant 150-152bhp

Was suggested there may be a problem with the ECU so tempted to have the one I have in at the moment remapped when the cams are back in to see if that makes a difference.

Worth noting I paid a little extra and had a live map done and not a static one

Karl - been to York and got 15.2s on standard cams/ecu. Probs quickest non cammed vts of the day

good time that best ive managed is a 15.4, that was at shakespeare raceway which isnt sposed to be very good for road cars due to surface

17th October 2007, 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulless

what was that Stripped One seat and no cage?
What wheels?

No that was 2 seats, carpet, stereo etc. No cage, 205 GTi rims on budget tyres!

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcook

good time that best ive managed is a 15.4, that was at shakespeare raceway which isnt sposed to be very good for road cars due to surface

York is god awful for road cars! I put it down to decent starts and lightning quick changes just off the limiter so I could cross in 3 gears as opposed to using 4th

17th October 2007, 12:12

I wanna do a 1/4 mile day...
did you take all 3 gears deep into the red then Craig?

17th October 2007, 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulless

I wanna do a 1/4 mile day...
did you take all 3 gears deep into the red then Craig?

Crossed the line deeeeep in the red in 3rd. Some of the runs I did I had to use 4th as I got bad starts

17th October 2007, 12:19

Lol at 180 BHP from LAD. They should know better. IMO, that's false advertising and this type of stuff should be clamped down on.

152 sounds like a good figure for 708s, but on a stock cylinder head. I would expect you to see nearer 160 with proper head work, but that depends on so many factors!

180 BHP would only be achievable with a wilder cam, and also a different intake, and ALSO bigger injectors, as the stock injectors will only work for about 165 BHP tops. Not only all of the above, you would need a different intake, as the stock intake would more than likely restrict before 180 BHP is reached.

17th October 2007, 12:21

Sounds like a great time for a standard setup! Impressive!

17th October 2007, 12:24

Just so Im in the know,
Whats a good RPM to launch at in a VTS on a 1/4 mile?
as I presume this is different from an everyday road.

17th October 2007, 12:24

Toad I was naive and obsessed with numbers when I bought it lol

17th October 2007, 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulless

Just so Im in the know,
Whats a good RPM to launch at in a VTS on a 1/4 mile?
as I presume this is different from an everyday road.

York is the only day I've done but I found fluctuating quickly between 2-3k did the trick for me with foot flat to the floor on launch.

Did 1st gear to just under the limiter then 2nd to about 7k then floored in 3rd

17th October 2007, 12:30

nice!
Someone I know run a 15.3 in a backbox/decat/viper'd VTS that was slammed to the floor. This was @ Pod.
Ultra good time tbh

17th October 2007, 12:44

What were your terminal speeds? 3rd gear will take you to over 90 mph at 7250 will it not? I think it's around 95 mph at 7800, but don't quote me!

Launching will depend on the cam setup too. You will bog down more with 708s as opposed to stock camshafts, so a little high rpm will be required. I find launching at about 3000 and getting no wheel spin is a fairly safe way to start. Obviously reving higher would be better, but then you have to ride the clutch a bit, and get the timing right, etc, etc...

Lol at the figures mate, I could see just how tempting that would be to anyone!

17th October 2007, 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulless

nice!
Someone I know run a 15.3 in a backbox/decat/viper'd VTS that was slammed to the floor. This was @ Pod.
Ultra good time tbh

Is somebody wanting to beat Dan?

17th October 2007, 12:45

how are you launching at 3k with no spin?

Saunders: Mate, you know what happened last time

17th October 2007, 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

What were your terminal speeds? 3rd gear will take you to over 90 mph at 7250 will it not? I think it's around 95 mph at 7800, but don't quote me!

Launching will depend on the cam setup too. You will bog down more with 708s as opposed to stock camshafts, so a little high rpm will be required. I find launching at about 3000 and getting no wheel spin is a fairly safe way to start. Obviously reving higher would be better, but then you have to ride the clutch a bit, and get the timing right, etc, etc...

Lol at the figures mate, I could see just how tempting that would be to anyone!

standard limiter in third is about 88mph

17th October 2007, 12:47

is that dials or real speed Sam?

17th October 2007, 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulless

is that dials or real speed Sam?

well i was crossing the line on the limiter in 3rd at shakespeare and thats what the timing slip was reading

17th October 2007, 12:51

Oh okays, i thought you were cammed Sam. Silly me..

17th October 2007, 12:52

Give me a mo, and I'll find the exact details on the gears / speeds...

I can launch at 3000 with no spin because of the 708s. I don't have a lot of power low down, plus I'm using Proxes T1Rs, which are nice and gripy!

17th October 2007, 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulless

Oh okays, i thought you were cammed Sam. Silly me..

nah not yet lol

17th October 2007, 12:55

I just have got a brand new set of T1-S, they feel better for grip than my Michelin Pilots..

Will have to try it, lol

*await need new box thread*

17th October 2007, 12:55

There's a big hit when you come into the max torque range though! For example, even with the T1Rs on and running nice and warm, if the tarmac is even slightly damp, if I put the boot down in 2nd gear at say 2000 rpm, as soon as I hit 5500 rpm, the wheels will spin. In the dry, if I steer only slightly, the wheels will spin in 2nd and 3rd at that rpm, hence why a LSD is a great tool for track use.

17th October 2007, 12:55

From what I remember my terminal speed was about 90-92mph. The limiter on my car is about 7250

17th October 2007, 12:56

I thought LSD was bad for cornering?

17th October 2007, 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by saxo180

From what I remember my terminal speed was about 90-92mph. The limiter on my car is about 7250

Prob slightly different measuring equipment or something is to blame.

17th October 2007, 12:58

Here's a superb link: http://www.saxosportsclub.com/Forums...c/t=17814.html

Looks like it's 89 mph...

17th October 2007, 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulless

I thought LSD was bad for cornering?

No man, it's awesome for cornering.

17th October 2007, 13:00

Just remembered I was on 195/50 15 tyres, that'll be where the extra few mph came from!

17th October 2007, 13:01

Nice to this this topic has gone of track lol

Where are we up to lol?

17th October 2007, 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by saxo180

Just remembered I was on 195/50 15 tyres, that'll be where the extra few mph came from!

Your speedo is probably running pretty much spot on with those tyres then, cool.

Leeroy, it makes you laugh doean't it. How often to these threads ever stay on track.... ?

17th October 2007, 13:08

That was more than likely my bad. sorry guys.

17th October 2007, 13:14

I don't see anything wrong with side tracking, as long as it remains interesting.

17th October 2007, 13:15

Quote:

Leeroy, it makes you laugh doean't it. How often to these threads ever stay on track.... ?

Ha ha agreed

just couldn't be bothered to read the fulll 80000000000000000000 pages lol

17th October 2007, 13:17

So anyways, LSD's, theres no disadvantage other than cost?

17th October 2007, 13:18

stop your wheels spining

17th October 2007, 13:18

...Whys that a disadvantage?

17th October 2007, 13:22

It's not, unless you are interested in other things I suppose.

Some of the older type of LSDs, use a plate version, and you could easily lock them up when down shifting for example. On a rear wheel drive car, you could sit and wave to your fellow races as you do a number of 360s on the tarmac after downshiting and not bliping the throttle.

17th October 2007, 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Sounds to me like your cam timing may have been dangerously out at some point then, as there's no way the valves would strike the pistons.

What do you mean by the lift and duration at 1mm? 1mm of what?

I think most "fast road" camshafts for out cars are around the 262 degree duration...

That is the cam duration at 1.00mm + clearance, instead of 0.01mm mate. Check www.catcams.be!! Or speak to matt at qep for advice. As this is where the duration of the cam is more important, as for 708's its only around 230 degrees. On 809's its around 255/242.

No my timing wasnt out at all mate, it was just that 10mm of lift at tdc is the maximum of a standard engine for valve to piston clearance, so a bit of over reving, piston slap what ever and you could be looking at a rebuild. But im not sure if anyone else has had a problem with this?? Or it may just be my agressive driving style!? I did do well over 100 1/4's on that engine. pmsl!!

So annoyed it only got to 14.03, not into the 13's.. But the new engine is going to be one to watch

17th October 2007, 23:15

OK, I see where you're coming from. I still need to read up more on this matter to get a better understanding.

I still don't see how the valves could strike pistons, there should be enough clearance if the timing is correct. Maybe the valve springs were causing the issue? Were you getting valve bounce or something?

18th October 2007, 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

OK, I see where you're coming from. I still need to read up more on this matter to get a better understanding.

I still don't see how the valves could strike pistons, there should be enough clearance if the timing is correct. Maybe the valve springs were causing the issue? Were you getting valve bounce or something?

You can never tell what was causing it buddy, anything can go wrong with these engines, lol... But the pistons in all 4 cyclinders had marks on them where the valves had been clashing.. But the new pistons have 25 thou clearance with the 809's. But measuring each of them has aparently taken a long time.

Hopefully i should have my car back by the end of next week, and then i can give you an update about the 809's... Can't wait!!

18th October 2007, 14:27

I bet you can't wait! Are you gonna give me a ride? Please... hehe