Tuning a Turbo Diesel

20th November 2007, 15:01

What can you do a turbo diesel, is it just the same as a petrol turbo or what?

Was in my mates car on sat night and was quite impressed by the speed of it, its a 1.9 TD Ibiza.

Cheers

20th November 2007, 15:05

remapping those VAG engines works wonders i hear.

20th November 2007, 15:10

If its an old mechanical diesel you can turn the fuel pump up and also increase the boost pressure. as for a modern deisel a remap is what your looking for. all this does is keep injecters open for longer to get more fuel in. You could also try a tuning box which simply riases the fuel pressure

20th November 2007, 15:11

Its an old S reg ibiza mk1 so I dunno if its an old diesel or new one lol.

Just wondered how easy they were to tune, might consider one as a next car if you can get good power out of them.

20th November 2007, 15:12

basically a massive improvement for modern engines is through a remap...

typically ~25% power and ~35% more torque

massive gains.

much better than that of a petrol

20th November 2007, 15:16

As much as that ads?

Is that on the newer VAG engines though?

20th November 2007, 15:19

Most diesels these days are turbocharged and the re-mapping companies can really do awesome stuff with them... I was looking at a Stilo JTD before my Saxo, its 115bhp standard and Angel Tuning said they could get it upto 160-165bhp easily...

Then if you do other work on it like upgrading the intercoolers etc you can really have a powerful car.

Fabia VRS's are rapid after a remap.

20th November 2007, 15:20

if its a mark 1 is is most deffinatly a mechanical diesel. You wont get as much of an increase as a newer diesel but it will certainly put a smile on your face. Turn the fuel pump rite up to max. it will smoke a fair bit but it will pull like a train

20th November 2007, 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantW

As much as that ads?

Is that on the newer VAG engines though?

was an additional 5% increase for engines built around 4-5 years ago man, only engine manufacturers have started to lower the super wider tolerances they originally had so the margin for gains has become less slightly.

even the older ones are capable or some large tuning potential.

20th November 2007, 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny13_vtr

if its a mark 1 is is most deffinatly a mechanical diesel. You wont get as much of an increase as a newer diesel but it will certainly put a smile on your face. Turn the fuel pump rite up to max. it will smoke a fair bit but it will pull like a train

My mates a mechanic and I know he's worked on his car, but didnt want to sound like a noob asking him what he'd done so thought Id ask on here lol.
What about a 306 HDi, are they mechanical? Are they as responsive as the VAG engines to tuning?
Knowing him he's probably turned the fuel pump up already lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

was an additional 5% increase for engines built around 4-5 years ago man, only engine manufacturers have started to lower the super wider tolerances they originally had so the margin for gains has become less slightly.

even the older ones are capable or some large tuning potential.

Why dont they just build them to their potential then? Or is it to do with emissions etc?

20th November 2007, 15:29

Diesel Tuning is rapidly becoming the "modern" form of tuning and you can see why when a simple remamp can produce such large gains. I'm definitely considering a diesel as my next car. (306 HDI 110 Estate FTW!!)

20th November 2007, 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantW

Why dont they just build them to their potential then? Or is it to do with emissions etc?

they would do if it wasnt for the fact that the manufacturer has to add considerations like:

customer missing services
sticking in crappy fuel
using crappy oil
raggin from cold
etc etc

the company usually offer a certain warranty that they'd rather not honor so by adding a tolerance the car is less likely to destroy itself in the first 3 years of bad ownership.

you've got to be careful from the point of view of the transmission though, the engine might take the tuning but the transmission might not

ads

20th November 2007, 15:35

I was talking to Nigel from Angel Tuning a while back and he said stay away from Pug Diesels if i can, especially the 2.0HDi ones... Basically he said as standard they kick out 90bhp which is far from impressive and there are much better options out there in terms of build quality and potential etc.

He seemed to have lots of praise for the Fiat JTD engines... The Skoda TD's, Golf TDI's and Alfa's are supposed to be very good... They can get a Golf GT TDI to 200bhp no problem.

20th November 2007, 15:37

the old 2.0hdi produced 110hp (8 valver)

the same is now produced from the 1.6HDi 16v

20th November 2007, 15:42

I'm on about the 206 HDi... Should have said sorry... From what he was saying though it put me off Pugs...

20th November 2007, 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by alextoffie

I was talking to Nigel from Angel Tuning a while back and he said stay away from Pug Diesels if i can, especially the 2.0HDi ones... Basically he said as standard they kick out 90bhp which is far from impressive and there are much better options out there in terms of build quality and potential etc.

He seemed to have lots of praise for the Fiat JTD engines... The Skoda TD's, Golf TDI's and Alfa's are supposed to be very good... They can get a Golf GT TDI to 200bhp no problem.

Only problem there is, those cars are expensive lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

they would do if it wasnt for the fact that the manufacturer has to add considerations like:

customer missing services
sticking in crappy fuel
using crappy oil
raggin from cold
etc etc

the company usually offer a certain warranty that they'd rather not honor so by adding a tolerance the car is less likely to destroy itself in the first 3 years of bad ownership.

you've got to be careful from the point of view of the transmission though, the engine might take the tuning but the transmission might not

ads

Good points there, never really thought of it that way.

Rep left lads.

Is there any other ways of tuning the dervs eg dumpvalves, bigger turbos yadda yadda?

20th November 2007, 22:52

Problem with diesel engines is they have a woefully narrow power band and incredible poor throttle response. It makes then very nasty to drive and so much slower than a petrol car hp for hp. But more importantly to many it just makes them annoying to drive. Tuning a diesel tends to just make them even poorer at what there poor at and even reduce there economy. Also over spinning a turbo greatly reduces its life. Though this is contrary to what many diesel tuners would like to have you believe. But just think about it, the only way you get more power is by adding more air and fuel.

If your wanting power for track days, quarter mile, b road blasting, weekend fun and the like. The only think diesel are good for is big cursing miles. Just take the mini, try and drive the diesle fast and it usees virtually the same fuel as the petrol and is slower. When you consider the cost of a diesel car, the extra cost of servicing and the extra cost of fuel you have to do silly miles to even make the fuel economy when cursing to pay back for it self.

You may have guessed I hate driving my diesel and am so happy every time I jump back in a petrol, even a 1.1 saxo is more fun. Its not all about BHP

20th November 2007, 23:46

my mates got the same car and runs a green enclosed filter then increased fuel pressure and a basic remap an it has up'd performance alot.

20th November 2007, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by AXracing

Problem with diesel engines is they have a woefully narrow power band and incredible poor throttle response. It makes then very nasty to drive and so much slower than a petrol car hp for hp. But more importantly to many it just makes them annoying to drive. Tuning a diesel tends to just make them even poorer at what there poor at and even reduce there economy. Also over spinning a turbo greatly reduces its life. Though this is contrary to what many diesel tuners would like to have you believe. But just think about it, the only way you get more power is by adding more air and fuel.

If your wanting power for track days, quarter mile, b road blasting, weekend fun and the like. The only think diesel are good for is big cursing miles. Just take the mini, try and drive the diesle fast and it usees virtually the same fuel as the petrol and is slower. When you consider the cost of a diesel car, the extra cost of servicing and the extra cost of fuel you have to do silly miles to even make the fuel economy when cursing to pay back for it self.

You may have guessed I hate driving my diesel and am so happy every time I jump back in a petrol, even a 1.1 saxo is more fun. Its not all about BHP

Hmm, might have to disagree a little there. Narrow power band? They are full of torque, and can shift muscle from lower revs, and peak power is acheived wayy before a petrol's. This means less time shifting and more time overtaking. Looking at modern diesels, example the Seat Ibiza Cupra 1.9 TDi has 160bhp, 243ft lb torque, in gear acceleration is silly fast, similar acceleration as a 106 GTi/VTS but with 20+ EXTRA miles per gallon. Plus a simple remap would make that car a giant-muncher.

Old diesels are poo, but most 21st century ones kill equivelant petrols for allround ability. Only thing is petrols are fun to rev and play about with.

21st November 2007, 00:52

ive a 206 1.4 hdi thats been remapped and intercooled and i tell ya its alot different to the saxo to drive but it sure is fun to drive. the torque will put a smile on your face every time

21st November 2007, 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazz_360

Hmm, might have to disagree a little there. Narrow power band? They are full of torque, and can shift muscle from lower revs, and peak power is acheived wayy before a petrol's. This means less time shifting and more time overtaking. Looking at modern diesels, example the Seat Ibiza Cupra 1.9 TDi has 160bhp, 243ft lb torque, in gear acceleration is silly fast, similar acceleration as a 106 GTi/VTS but with 20+ EXTRA miles per gallon. Plus a simple remap would make that car a giant-muncher.

Old diesels are poo, but most 21st century ones kill equivelant petrols for allround ability. Only thing is petrols are fun to rev and play about with.

Driven one though?

A greatr derv, a really great durv, pulls between 2k and 5k. My mum's Fabia VRs (which is fucking great) does this, and it's lovely.

A great petrol pulls from 2k and stops over 7k. That's the difference.

Diesels are ALWAYS a compromise. The range isn't there. In the real world however, for a luxury car, there is no compromise. A 7 series BMW with 500ft lb of torque and an auto box will be better with a derv, no one takes a cruiser over 5k and to get that torque out of a petrol, one needs to put up with 8mpg

In a hot hatch, it's less clear cut. Flexibility is important because the hot hatch is generally thrashed within an inch of its life.

Other bits to consider are repair costs. Remapping your BMW 330d is a great way to get "near to M3" performance, right up to the point the fuel pump gets hacked off with providing 200BAR of presure for extended times, implodes and sadles you with a 7k bill for a new engine, fuel system, turbo, etc. For hard tuned motoring, at the moment, Petrol is the way forward

and diesels sound shit.

21st November 2007, 12:29

ive owned two diesels before the saxo and a diesel can take much more abuse than a petrol will. my 206 would leave the saxo once it gets going plus i can get twice as many miles per tank. Even if im thrashing my 206 i still getn 45miles per gallon. 65+ on long runs. Dont be so quick to write off a diesel.
So far ive spend just over £500 tuning my 206 and gained 45 bhp. The gains are unreal compared to petrols

21st November 2007, 12:45

0-60 means sweet bugger all in real life, anyone who thinks that measurement is indicative of a vehilce performance is, well, a nob.

in terms of tuning, you get more hp per £ from a derv than a petrol.

campdave's right about derv being better for larger cars. diesel engines are considerably heavier than an equivalent petrol.

so in a hot hatch with a relatively small weight compared to that of standard vehicle sizes, the increase from having a diesel engine installed is going to cause a significant difference in the mass between the two cars. and so performance is comprimised.

in a large car or something shit like a massive 4x4 the difference in weight between two engines is negligable and so the performance benefits of a diesel outweigh that of petrol.

oh and... when i had my c3 1.4hdi my mate and I did a comparison between that and his c3 1.4i

absolutely no difference in performance. except his fuel gauge dropped faster than mine.

derv for the win.
simply disliking them out of principle makes you a paedo as far as im concerned.

21st November 2007, 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by CampDavid

Other bits to consider are repair costs. Remapping your BMW 330d is a great way to get "near to M3" performance, right up to the point the fuel pump gets hacked off with providing 200BAR of presure for extended times, implodes and sadles you with a 7k bill for a new engine, fuel system, turbo, etc. For hard tuned motoring, at the moment, Petrol is the way forward

and diesels sound shit.

daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaave.... since when does the fuel pump get tweaked in a remap?

i was under the impression the boost and something else i cant remember what got changed only?

21st November 2007, 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by AXracing

Tuning a diesel tends to just make them even poorer at what there poor at and even reduce there economy.

ironing out flat spots in the torque profile caused by a default map at the factory makes them poorer

oooooook then.

economy does drop granted. but also improves if the right foot is controlled.

21st November 2007, 12:57

Fabia VRS rock.

21st November 2007, 13:27

Some tuning companies will take the derv tuning furthur ie raising the fuel pressure but most of the time its only really injector timing. The new diesel engines are not far off the weight of a petrol engine. Theres really no difference between fords 1.4 and 1.6 duratorque engines and the duratech petrol versions.

21st November 2007, 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

0-60 means sweet bugger all in real life, anyone who thinks that measurement is indicative of a vehilce performance is, well, a nob...

...derv for the win.
simply disliking them out of principle makes you a paedo as far as im concerned.

I wholeheartedly agree with both of these statements. I mean in reality when will most people be hammering it hard of the line and accelerating in that way? Unless we're a serious drag racing fan not much really. However we all blat along B roads or even A roads and need that in gear acceleraion to overtake slower moving traffic, and this ks of course where the torque of a diesel comes in.

Everyone gets caught p in how much power everyone has but in reality its torque thats important

21st November 2007, 21:46

I learnt to drive on a 206 turbodiesel. It felt a bit slow at first but it used to pull like a train uphill. Typical diesels develop their peak torque at 3000rpm or some even lower than this making them more driveable as you don't have to rev the nuts off it just to get to the top of the slope. I think diesels are great because they are more economical and driveable, but for out and out fun and raw BHP, I'd always opt for a petrol

Many modern diesels these days are tuned to get plently of power from standard, but nearly all benefit from a remap and as it has been said you get much more for your money for tuning up a diesel engine than a petrol.