Continued rear axle woes. Any help Williams? ;)

4th December 2007, 12:33

The never ending saga of the rear axle... Urggg, I'm honestly about to give up.

2 weeks ago I had the bearings in the rear axle replaced, as there was a noticeable, yet small, amount of play in each rear arm. Once this was done, there was no noise at all from the rear and everything was peachy.

Alas, just 2 weeks later, and the noise has returned. It's the same noise you would affiliate with knocking the rear beam (yellow tube) with a spanner. I get this when I go over a small but sudden bump...

It seems to be the same old story. The end plates of the rear ARB don't seem to fit flush into the trailling arms. Once you take the 13mm bolt out, you can shake the end plate up and down a few mm, even though it's in as far as it will go. Surely when the end plates are in their fixed position, they shouldn't be able to move so freely? I don't see a simply fix for this scenario, bar actually welding the end plates to the trailling arm, thus they won't be able to move no matter what. Obviously this isn't an ideal fix, but I can't think of anything else. Williams, do you have any suggestions? I would very much appreciate it!

4th December 2007, 12:47

i know how you feel because mine is buggered as well

4th December 2007, 13:33

Are the end plates bent? If so it could be worth replacing them

4th December 2007, 13:40

are the end plates definetly on properly? whack each end with e hammer atthe same time or use the bolt method.

also check the lip the plate locates on isnt damaged.

4th December 2007, 13:59

Yes, the outter parts of the plates sit flush to the tralling arm. As you know, there's a lip to the end plates, which is about 2mm deep, and this lip sits inside the trailling arm. Well, it's this lip that isn't snug inside the trailling arm, as even with the plates fully pressed into the arm, there's movement, mostly in an up and down type of way. My guess is that when the plates are fully pressed to the arm, they should sit very snug, is that correct? Whereas mine can move about, only a small amount, but if you move it hard enough, it creates that very same "spanner on beam" type of sound, which i'm positive is the very same noise generated when I hit a bump.

4th December 2007, 14:02

Yes, I could get 2 new end plates. But the problem could be the inside of the outter edge of the trailling arm... One other issue, is that I can't get one of the end plates of the ARB, lol! had it in a vice, and hammered it to hell, and it wouldn't budge.

4th December 2007, 14:51

are your arb plate bolts done up tight? mine were loose and used to get a clunking and pinging when driving over bumps.

4th December 2007, 15:06

Yes, they are always tight mate. That doesn't seem to make any difference. I'm positive it's the plates knocking against the arm which is causing the noise, I can't see what else it could be.

4th December 2007, 16:01

has whoever replaced the bearings put teh ARB seals back in? the help the plates locate a bit. as they are a water tight fit onto them. and are the in the correct position.

4th December 2007, 16:05

Jack the car up at the back and lever each wheel up and down while you listen for where the noise is coming from.

4th December 2007, 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by williamsvts

has whoever replaced the bearings put teh ARB seals back in? the help the plates locate a bit. as they are a water tight fit onto them. and are the in the correct position.

I haven't checked, but I doubt they would have forgotten to do that. I think the noise is from the small lip on the end plate, not the actual part that sits further inside the arm. The lip I'm on about is the lip that's about 2-3mm in depth, and about 2" in diameter. It's almost as big as the endplate, do you the one I'm refering to? It's that lip which makes contact with the trailling arm, and there's no rubber or anything to cushion the contact. I know about the rubber seal you are refering to, but that's further inside, where the thinner part of the endplate sits...

4th December 2007, 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabbastard

Jack the car up at the back and lever each wheel up and down while you listen for where the noise is coming from.

I can't recreate the noise when the wheel is on and everything is fitted. I can only recreate the noise when I take the 13mm bolt out of the endplate, and I grab the endplate and shake it up and down, even though it's sitting flush to the trailling arm...

4th December 2007, 16:23

i know what you mean. but the seal will help keep the whole endplate still. could the endplates have been bent when the were being hammared off?

4th December 2007, 16:44

I've had the problem long before I got nasty with a hammer!

I think I'll order a couple of new endplates from Pug, I can't see that they would be too expensive? He says... lol

On problem, is that I need to get the current ones off! As I was saying, one seems to be completely stuck! At least new plates will help narrow down what's the problem. So, in theory, the new plates should sit inside the arm very snug is that correct? If they are the same as my current ones, then I will looking at a worn trailling arm!

Not good!!!!

4th December 2007, 16:47

if it turns out to be an ovalled inside of the trailing arm, just weld it up and grind it round again. Had to do that once, wasnt the best Friday Ive ever had LOL

4th December 2007, 17:00

Hehe. I'm tempted to get someone to attack it with a blowtourch!

4th December 2007, 23:29

Mines making noises at the moment, its like a pinging noise as is common with the ARB not being fully tight.

It doesnt happen just going over bumps but more round corners:

turn left- right hand side pings
turn right- left hand side pings

Took off the ARB the other day and the end plates dont look particularly healthy, but changed both of the seals, upgraded ARB to the pug 24mm one anyway and refitted with new bolts.

Tightened up both bolts as much as i dare (Haynes manual doesnt specify a correct torque setting as its deemed not suitable for DIYists to tamper with -my arse!)

Problem was cured for a few days and not its started again so i too am stuck wondering whether to replace the end plates or whether i just need to find out from Citroen what torque setting i need.

Similar problems and worries i guess

4th December 2007, 23:36

it'll be the aarb not in the end plates properly. use my guide.

4th December 2007, 23:49

Tried that and no luck unfortunately. Tried getting someone to hit 1 plate in from 1 side while i hit the other aswel. All that worked for a few days but then reoccured.

Only thing it can be now is worn end plates, maybe even bent from removal, but on the underside they werent exactly smooth

or

ARB end plate bolt not torqued up enough.

Going to replace all these parts tomorrow and see if that helps:

To give you some idea on price toad ive checked out Citroen parts thatll be similar to pug and have the following:

BAR LEVER (LEFT) 30 DTS
Part number 5178 42 (£32.91 inc VAT)
Replacement part number for this part 5178 50 (21.08 inc VAT)

Guessing replacement part is new parts as citroen changed these throughout manufacture- obviously you need pug but these parts are interchangeable between the pug and cit

BAR LEVER (RIGHT) 32 DTS
Part number 5178 24 (£41.88 inc VAT)
Replacement part number for this part 5178 51 (£17.84 inc VAT)

SELF TAP SCREWS
(1 either side to secure the end plates) Part # 6922 C2 (£1.40 each)

SUSPENSION ARM SEAL
1 each side- Part number 5174 07 (£4.04 inc VAT each)

4th December 2007, 23:53

imo its the arb not in the plates properly. unless the endplates have been damaged on removal.

5th December 2007, 00:01

Pretty sure mine are in the end plates properly, did all the usual checks for that.
Not ruling out the end plates being damaged or bent though on removal, slide hammer was applied in numerous places to attempt getting it off.

I think ill be safer and worthwhile replacing the end plates as on the back of them the 2mm lip thats mentioned isnt in great condition and should by judgement on visual appearance be changed.

If yours is of similar age Toad and they look a bit sketchy, for the sake of £50 id replace those bits, with the seals and maybe the bolts aswel to ensure that everythings kept in best condition.

5th December 2007, 00:47

Good reading Willsy, thanks for the prices especially!

The 2mm lip on my endplates is not looking all that healthy, and it's that lip which makes a metal on metal contact if you know what I mean? So if that's not a perfectly snug fit, there HAS to be potential for a knocking noise to occur.

Williams, I know what you are saying, but if both end plates are sitting flush the their respective trailling arms, then you cannot get the ARB to sit any further into them. Hence, there's nothing more that can be done to make sure the ARB is properly in place...

Oh yeah! Almost forgot to mention Willsy... I have taken the rear ARB out a few times, and smacked everything into place, and sometimes, if I'm lucky, the noise will stop! But give it a week, and it comes back. Also, just like you mentioned, it happens when turning at low speeds, like pulling into a driveway etc, etc. It only happens when turning when it's in really bad order. At the moment though, it only happens on bumps, but if i leave it long enough, it will get worse, and eventually start knocking when making the turns... I think we have the very same problem mate.

I thought this problem would be cured when getting new bearings, as I thought the reason it kept coming back was due to play in the rear, but this is NOT the case sadly, as it was only 2 weeks ago I had new bearings fitted, and the noise has just started again. Before the chaps did the bearings, they warned me that the rear axle could be in bad shape and new bearings would be pointless, I would have to seek a new / refurbed rear axle. However, when they took the arms off, the condition was really good, only minor wear which they said would be 100% fine...

5th December 2007, 00:51

Going to order my parts in the morning, will fit them most likely on friday so ill let you know how i get on

5th December 2007, 00:56

Sorry mate, I edited the previous post a few times, you might wanna have another read.

5th December 2007, 01:02

Just read the edited bit Toad:

When i put my axle on the car it was fully taken apart and checked for bearing and pin wear and there was absolutely none atall. Even tried wriggling the trailing arm with and without wheels on the other day and there is no movement atall so i know theyre still in very good shape.

Grease has been applied in plentiful amounts to keep it tip top and seals were fine at the time however i did replace these on Friday along with applying the 24mm ARB.

The noise disappeared for just over a day and has since returned, however it is very minor and nowhere near as bad as it was, similarly its only doing it when turning left (noise on the drivers side) so im certain theres incorrect torque applied to the ARB bolt. (It was happening on both sides before)

The edge (2mm lip) on the rear of both plates was a bit worn, not smooth atall so wouldnt be great for keeping everything firm and the plates do move up and down easier than i imagined them to.

5th December 2007, 01:10

I bet the noise will slowly get worse...

I think I've currently got my ARB the opposite way round at the moment, lol. I was trying all sorts to stop the noise. It lasted about 3 weeks!

5th December 2007, 01:13

lol it will get worse, starts off as a bit of a 'ping' and over time as whatever it is works itself free/looser it turns into more of a 'clunk'. Im back to the occasional Ping at the moment.

If i cant combat it after fridays efforts replacing all the last remaining parts then i shall be getting it sorted at a specialist next week.

Ill also apply some of that 'lock tight' stuff onto the thread of the ARB bolt aswel just to make fully sure that it remains secure under the torque level that i set it at.

5th December 2007, 01:18

You do that... Me on the other hand, well, I'm going at it with a blowtorch!

5th December 2007, 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

You do that... Me on the other hand, well, I'm going at it with a blowtorch!

Angle grinder is my usual weapon of choice, but sadly i cant see it helping me on this one, as upsetting as it may be

Pics of blowtorch in action would be nice of course

Time for sleep anyway, ill keep you updated mate

6th December 2007, 12:11

Bit of an Update for you Toad!

Firstly, and rather annoyingly my ping has now stopped, typical as id ordered the parts yesterday.

Secondly im still replacing them anyway and its only now ive seen the new ones that i realise just how bad a state my end plates and bolts were in.

This is how one should look: That inner lip is actually about 4mm! On my old ones theyre an uneven 2mm or so where corrosion has taken hold (no wonder its noisy with no proper even edge to keep it flush)

Ive also bought 2 new bolts for the end plates aswel as they are supposed to have some of that green lock tight stuff on them.

My old ones didnt, possibly corroded too i would imagine.
And the stainless steel ones id replaced the old ones with werent as high tensile and didnt have lock tight on either- this would explain the reoccurance of the noise after time.

I also found out what the proper torque setting is supposed to be for these bolts and it is 25nm!

Possibly the most boring pic ever below...

6th December 2007, 13:00

Excellent work Willsy!

LOL @ the most boring pic!!!

Could you do me a BIG favour pleeeeease? Can you note down all the product numbers for all the parts shown above, and I will then make the exact same purchase as you. Cheers mate!

6th December 2007, 13:12

much were the end plates?

6th December 2007, 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by willsy

I also found out what the proper torque setting is supposed to be for these bolts and it is 25nm!

Yep thats correct mate, always check haynes for tightness, could be why your's were pinging / others coming loose

6th December 2007, 15:22

Part Numbers

Suspension arm seal: 5174 07 (£3.43 each - 2 needed)

Self tap screw: 6922 C2 (£1.19 each - 2 needed)

Bar lever: 5178 50 (£17.94 - 1 needed)

Bar lever: 5178 51 (£15.18 - 1 needed)

The above are all the prices and part numbers from Citroen.

The parts are exactly the same for the Pug 106 aswel Toad as there are no variences in ARB plate (Bar lever) sizes regardless of ARB size

Also if anyone is interested:

Pug 106 24mm ARB is £79.71 brand new from Peugeot and the part number for that is 5170 98

6th December 2007, 15:23

All above prices are inclusive of VAT aswel

6th December 2007, 15:24

Legend mate.

6th December 2007, 15:34

Just ordered them. Came to just under a nifty...

6th December 2007, 18:31

nice one mate

ill get mind fitted tomorrow morning (hoping for dry weather) expecting a pretty noticeable difference with a nice clean, snug fit

6th December 2007, 18:44

Cool, look forward to hearing about the result.

My issue will be getting one of the endplates off the ARB, as I couldn't do it before.

6th December 2007, 19:43

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/62973/...JFHMCSTHZPCFFA

Piece of cake with one of these, as are torsion bars.

Just make sure you have a good bolt with the same thread size as the hole in 1 of the arb plates and another with an M8 thread for pulling the ARB out of the other plate

6th December 2007, 19:45

Hmm, I'm not so sure about the slide hammer. I locked the ARB to a vice, then took a hammer to it, and even then I couldn't get the endplate to come off.

6th December 2007, 19:51

The good thing with the slide hammer though is that as its in a central point in the thread the force is all even pulling it outwards, whereas with a hammer its focused on a well off centre point which is knocking the plate at an angle rather than directly outwards.

6th December 2007, 19:56

Yeah, but the endplate that's stuck is the one that has no hole in the middle.

6th December 2007, 20:00

saok it in wd40 for a few days (keep spraying them)

7th December 2007, 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Yeah, but the endplate that's stuck is the one that has no hole in the middle.

Get the other side off first

Then with the side thats got no hole in leave it attached and then connect up the slide hammer to the ARB thread round the other side which has already had the plate removed.
Allows you to pull the ARB out of the blank plate that way.

7th December 2007, 13:52

Further update for you Toad.

Took off the ARB again this morning and this is the state of my old end plates...

Pretty shocking ey, no wonder there wasnt a snug fit and a small gap between the back of the base plate and the trailing arm.

Anyway new seals were placed on the end plates and greased on the back, round the sides, pretty much all over.

I greased the inside of the trailing arm, plentiful application here.

Best to add more than to add less, if you use too much itll just push out when you hit the plates back onto the ARB anyway

Pretty sure the old ARB plates were slightly bent aswel.

Now its all put back together, everything is 100% flush, no gaps or anything and the ARB bolt done up to 25nm with the new bolts with lock tight. Realised that these weren't done up tight enough before either.

About to take it for a drive now to test it, ill let you know the result when i return

7th December 2007, 14:31

And the verdict is........

Success!

Problem solved, completely smooth at the rear now with no rattle, ping or any unusual noise.

7th December 2007, 16:06

The old plates don't look that bad. Well, compared to mine!

Excellent news that it's tip top again. Fingers crossed it stays like that.

My parts are in! I will pick them up tomorrow morning and go to town on that rear axle. Hopefully will have an update for you tomorrow if all goes to plan. The only obstacle is still getting the endplate off...

Questions:

What grease did you use? I've only got some copper grease, so if different grease is more apt for this job, I will get some.

Did you add loctite to the bolts, or are you refering to the green stuff already on them?

Cheers.

7th December 2007, 16:15

The grease i got was one of these (cant remember which one exactly-not at home to check the garage) but it says on the back its for bearings and allsorts, pretty good stuff

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/s...tegoryId_77314

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/s...tegoryId_77314

The bolts came with the green stuff one them, seems to be more than adequate so far

Endplates came off piece of cake again with a slide hammer-they're still on offer from screwfix at the mo.

Best way to do it to get off the plate that doesnt have the hole in the end.

7th December 2007, 16:24

Good stuff mate. Halfrauds in right by Pug, so I'll pick some up tomoz.

I think I have an idea on to get the endplate off. I will use the vice to form almost a ring around the ARB, and then I will pull the ARB really hard in one direction and use the momentum and vice to catch the plate at the end. It will work a bit like the slide hammer, but I will be pulling the ARB with my hands instead...

7th December 2007, 16:27

Worth giving that a try

be careful when yanking it though, firstly that the ARB doesnt get damaged in any way and of course if you're pulling and it comes out, dont fall backwards as this may hurt <- Willsy top tip

7th December 2007, 17:43

I'll do my best not to fall mate! lol

7th December 2007, 18:05

hope all goes well tommoroow and maybe it will be one problem ticked off. off topic but for the pulling to the left problem more than likely master cylinder as you/me said last sat. can you get it serviced? might be worth starting a new thread and finding out wether or not you can swap the pipes over.

7th December 2007, 18:08

You can apparently, but I have no clue how to do it. Plus, I'd need to bleed the system again afterwards as brake fluid would go everywhere!

I'm doing the axle tomoz as you know, so I'll whoop the front pads out too and inspect them to see if there has been uneven wear between the left and right ones.

7th December 2007, 18:18

post the results, yeah you would have to bleed the system/top it up but that isnt too hard to do, a few old rags/pots will colect all of the fluid. it would also confirm the breaks/master cylinder or rule them out

7th December 2007, 18:30

Indeed, but I really don't know how to switch this thing around...

7th December 2007, 18:33

post a thread some one will know

8th December 2007, 11:08

I got the bits!

But it's looking unlikely that I will do this today, as 1) It's pissing it down and the forecast is bleak. And 2) They managed to lose one of the seals... So i've only got 1 seal! If I do tackle it today, I'll inspect both seals and if either of them are in good order, I'll just re-use one of them.

Willsy, did you get the "LM" Castrol grease, or the CL? I enquired about the difference as there wasn't anything written on the tub, and a chap told me that the LM would be better suited for this as it's not as soft as the CL and it will last longer...

8th December 2007, 17:47

lm grease is good and very universal

9th December 2007, 15:40

Bad news. I had a REALLY bad day today!

Things just went from bad to worse... I eventually got the stuck end plate off by using a blow torch. Son of bitch! Remember me saying I only got one seal? Well I thought i'd do the work anyway, and just take out one seal... When I went to take the seal out, it wouldn't come out in one piece. I ended up spending over an hour taking it out, and using a stanley knife too! When I entually got all the pieces out, I went to put the new seal in, and it wouldn't fit. I tried everything known to man to get that seal in, but no joy. It just wouldn't go far enough in to be able to fit the end plate on flush. I have NO idea why... Looking at the side that had the original seal still on, you could clearly see that outside edge of the seal sits a good 5mm inside the hole. Yet when I was trying to put the new seal in, it would sit no more than about 1mm in the hole. Any ideas people? Willsy, did your seal just push in, or is there something I'm missing here? Physically looking at the hole where the seal goes, there a tiny lip inside which is stopping the seal going any further. I had to fix everything up, so now it's all back together, but the near side has no seal.

9th December 2007, 15:54

This it what things looked like as I was taking the ARB out:

Notice the amount of water on the ARB? Doesn't look great eh? You can see that even with the old seal in, there's still plently of room for the lip on the end plate to go into the hole.

Here's what it looked like after I cut everything out:

Notice the lip inside the hole? If the seal I'm trying to fit will just barely fit in the hole, how on earth will it fit past that lip??? Hence why I couldn't fit it...

9th December 2007, 15:57

And just to add... I tried pushing the seal so hard, that the lip I'm talking about actually cut the seal! WTF!!!

9th December 2007, 17:13

Here's a pic of what the seal looks like after trying to fit it.

It's actually changed shape after trying to force it into a hole which is too small for it.

9th December 2007, 18:04

Well you certainly shouldnt have a single drop of water on your ARB, those seals are supposed to stop any water getting in.

As is in my pics i placed the seal onto the end plate first and got that all into place, greased it up and then it was a case of putting it into place and then whacking the ARB plates into place with the seals on.

There wasnt any great struggle to get the seals in, it was very tight, but then again its supposed to be as tight as a camels arse in a sandstorn, but it wasnt at the point where nothing was happening.

were your ARB plates (the old ones) all fully flush to the end of the traling arm before- ie none of that inner lip was showing and you couldnt get a fingernail between the arb plate and the traling arm end?

9th December 2007, 18:23

Yeah, the plates were in postion before, no issue at all. For some reason mate, I just can't get that seal in. You can see that the seal has been cut towards the outter edge, all because of the lip inside the arm. It's as iff the seal as a tiny bit too big... I don't get it at all.

I tried everything... I put the seal on the end plate, and hammred the end plate in for England! But I couldn't get the seal to go in, it just wouldn't budge past that inner lip. As you can see from the pic above, there's a lip which is about 1mm thick, and this lip sits at about 5mm inwards of the edge of the arm. Now, if the seal is say 4mm thick, and the lip on the end plate is 4mm thick, that would mean I would need a gap of about 8mm in total to get the end plate to sit flush on the arm, correct? However, when I fitted the seal in, there was only about 1mm (if that!) from the seal to the end of the arm. So this clearly wasn't in enough to fit the lip of the end plate in as well. If I went to the other side, and looked at the old seal, you could clearly see that the seal was well pushed into the arm, an there was about 4-5mm gap left for the end plate's lip to sit nice and tidy in...

I need to understand what I was doing wrong when trying to fit the seal. When I took the seal out after giving up hope, I could (and still can) see a cut around the outter edge of the seal, which was done by the inside lip, as the seal was just too damn big for the hole!

On the brighter side of things, there's no more knocking, lol. The new end plates have fixed it.

Obviously not ideal though, I need to fit a seal in there ASAP! ...But how?

9th December 2007, 18:35

Right Willsy, here's a "Paint" job special to help describe what I'm on about...

The yellow arrow points to the main are from the outter most point of the hole, all the way until you reach the lip I'm on about. The red arrows all point to lip which seems to be causing the issue.

Now, from the outter most point to the lip, is roughly around 5-6mm in length. If the total length of the end plate lip and seal is around 8mm, then the seal will HAVE to fit past that lip (not all of the seal, but enough...) for there to be enough room for the end plate to sit nice and flush against the arm. Hope that helps clear the situation up a bit...

9th December 2007, 18:44

if there is water on the arb then i'd seriously suggest pulling the trailing arms off and making sure they have no pitting in the stubb pins what so ever,

Let me know, ill try and keep my eye on this thread

9th December 2007, 18:45

Some more red arrows!

Take a close look at this pic, and you can see where the inside lip has cut into the seal. So rather than the seal slipping inside the inner lip area, it's just too damn big, and the lip has cut into the seal, hence why I couldn't get the damn seal in far enough!

9th December 2007, 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsaxo

if there is water on the arb then i'd seriously suggest pulling the trailing arms off and making sure they have no pitting in the stubb pins what so ever,

Let me know, ill try and keep my eye on this thread

I think the water in there is because of a flood i went though a few month back. It hasn't cleared out since. The flood came up to the tops of my wheel arches. I was lucky I didn't flood the engine!

I don't think it matters how good seals are, if you submerge the rear axle in water, something is bound to give. If you peek through either side of the arm, you can see there's a few water droplets sitting in the bottom of the axle. Anyway, that's another issue...

9th December 2007, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

I think the water in there is because of a flood i went though a few month back. It hasn't cleared out since. The flood came up to the tops of my wheel arches. I was lucky I didn't flood the engine!

I don't think it matters how good seals are, if you submerge the rear axle in water, something is bound to give. If you peek through either side of the arm, you can see there's a few water droplets sitting in the bottom of the axle. Anyway, that's another issue...

In that case you should have stripped the beam down a few months ago mate

9th December 2007, 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

I think the water in there is because of a flood i went though a few month back

Going to have to agree with Josh on that one then, if theres water in and it would have been to the extent that the inner axle flooded then theres a high chance the water would have washed the lubrication away from your bearings and could (if not already) have started to cause some prety bad wearing issues on the pins and within the trailing arms.

If left for much longer, doing who knows what damage, you may be looking at a new axle.

9th December 2007, 19:18

Maybe... Only put new bearings in 2 weeks ago. There's not much I can do now. I'll have a new seal shortly, and I'll take it apart again. I'll try to clear all the water out and then check up on it in a few weeks time. When I got the new bearings fitted, the chaps who did the work told me everything was in good order... So I'm assuming that old water still in there. I won't really know that until I clear it all out and then check back at a later time...

9th December 2007, 19:25

If the bearings were changed then they should have cleaned and regreased it all properly anyway so thats good.

Dry it the best you can and then be generous with that castrol grease to be on the safe side.

Glad that the noise stopped anyway, did you get a pic of the state of your end plates?

9th December 2007, 19:33

I took a few pics, as I had it in my mind that I would update with all the work I had been doing etc, etc. But I didn't expect this crap to happen. All because of some dumb seal. I will get some pics up of the end plates if you like, they're not pretty.

I wanted to ask actually... How did you get your old seals out? Did you have to do anything like I did? It took me over an hour for just one of them. I had to use a stanley knife and all sorts as it had pretty much moulded to the arm!

9th December 2007, 19:43

ive got the same noise you described in the first post on my 206, but ive got the added extra trouble of my passenger side wheels actually going in over at the top. I was told it was the trailer arm bearing so instead of changing it as its suppost to be hard than actually fitting a new axle, so im waiting for my axle to arrive

9th December 2007, 19:49

Some other pics:

End plates

Bit of rubber crap I was carving out with Mr Stanley...

9th December 2007, 20:05

That trailer arm bearing has to be pressed in from all accounts ive heard when getting quotes for myn no one would touch it cause its a biatch to do

9th December 2007, 20:07

The seals came out on mine by putting a small flat blade up behind them and then forcing it out. Mine had all been taken out and done recently (but not replaced) but there was fresh grease in there keeping it all smooth and unseized up.

Much happier now ive changed them though and the end plates. Threw it round a few bends earlier just to check the noise had done and it all appears to be great

9th December 2007, 20:13

I don't know why my seals were so fooked. They look perfect, but once I tried to take that one out, it was almost impossible. The seal had actually become part of the arm, and it was a case of scrape after scrape with a razor. Maybe they have been letting in water after all? Who knows... But I still don't know how I am going to to fit news ones, and also what I'm going to do about the one with no seal in!!!

Stiffler, what you going on about mate? lol

9th December 2007, 20:17

If I still can't get the seal to fit, I might just shove a load of gasket like sealant around the end plate. That should do the trick.

9th December 2007, 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

and also what I'm going to do about the one with no seal in!!!

Dont drive the car untill you have them in... especially with the weather at the minute

9th December 2007, 20:21

No choice mate, gotta use it to get to work...

9th December 2007, 20:28

The next time you see my car it will be in the 4 sale section because I've seriously had enough. Everything that could have gone wrong with this car, has gone wrong. And to top it all off, I can't even insert a fucking seal into the arm. I give up!

9th December 2007, 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

The next time you see my car it will be in the 4 sale section because I've seriously had enough. Everything that could have gone wrong with this car, has gone wrong. And to top it all off, I can't even insert a fucking seal into the arm. I give up!

I'm sure its worth it when you fly past things

Dont be put off by the problems - not new cars anymore.

As long as they are water tight then it wont be a problem - dont drive it untill then

9th December 2007, 22:09

wo wo wo dont sell it is desting t be a track toy.

9th December 2007, 22:17

I have to use it, as it's still used to get me back and forward to work. I will have Thur and Fri to work on it, or tomorrow night I suppose. Don't fancy doing stuff in the dark, but I don't have a lot of choices.

I don't know how to get a the seal in, so what can I actually do?

9th December 2007, 22:21

I was wondering... Is it possible something has been damaged, causing that inner lip area to be smaller than normal?

9th December 2007, 22:32

only possible thing i can think of is that it has become bent/mishaped from you whacking the hell out of it maybe

9th December 2007, 22:42

Thanks, lol. Nah, it would have gone in OK the first time... Maybe if there is still some remains of the old seal lurking, it would stop the whole thing from going in? It just seems so damn tight though. It's tight even getting the seal into the first area of the big hole, so it seems impossible to get it to go into an even smaller area...

9th December 2007, 22:44

check with peugeot that they have given you the correct ones

lots of grease will help

can you not put the seal on the end plate and tighten it up and it should squash it in there

9th December 2007, 22:55

You say that you tried it with putting the seal onto the end plate first aswel?

Now did it slide onto the end plate easily or was it a really really snug fit? snug as it took a good push to get it to go down the shaft as though it would be water tight?

is the outside edge diameter the same as the lip part of the end plate as it is in this pic?

10th December 2007, 08:16

Yep, exactly the same as yours Willsy. Ben, I've checked the part number, seems spot on...

When i put the seal on the end plate, it was nice and snug, yep, and the outter edge of the seal was the same diameter of the end plate's lip. It matched yours in the pic above mate. Reading what you wrote, I wouldn't say it was REALLY tight putting it on the end plate, it went down fairly easily, but it seemed like a snug fit...

I'm going to have another crack at this tonight. I will get a lamp or something, as I'll be working in the dark!

No kidding mate, when i was hitting the end plate in, I had a big piece of wood, and a massive mallet, I was hitting so hard I was worried I might break the whole axle off the car!!! Bit even with all that battering, I could only get the seal to sit about 1mm inward of the outter edge of the arm. It needs to go in leaving a space of about 5mm, not just 1mm!

As I was saying before, the seal just wouldn't go into the hole where it it gets slightly narrower... So I've got no seal in there now. I took the seal out, and one or 2 small smacks, and the end plate went on lovely. It doesn't make sense why that seal won't fit. I took and image of one of the pics above, which shows the hole are after I cleaned all the old seal out, and popped it in Photoshop. I then re-sized the image until it was the same size as a CDROM, lol! I then placed the CD over the screen, and I could see that the inner lip area was perfectly circular, so there's not been any damage to the inner area from what I can see. I was thinking that the seal might need to be properly "pressed" in with a special tool. But when I saw that you have just whacked yours in, it scratched that idea completely. I wonder why my seal was so hard to get out? Did you see the pic earlier, where I showed bits of rubber? I was honestly cutting it out with a razor. The rubber seal had become part of the arm...

10th December 2007, 08:20

Just to add, when I have another go tonight, I will use some tool to tap around the inner lip area in the hole, and make sure the lip is pressed to the outside as much as possible. I will then take a little bit of sand paper, and smooth the lip down a bit, just to give every little bit of extra chance for the seal to slide into it. If that lip is just a teeny bit in the way, there's no way that the seal can pass through it.

10th December 2007, 10:35

make sure you have removed all of the old seal. it may look like you hvae but they can sometimes peel away and it will just look like the arm. use a small screw driver and a hammer to get it off. you should be able to put the sel in the arm with just your hands, should easily push in.

10th December 2007, 10:39

just looked at the pic, thats part of your old seal your trying to put the new seal onto.

10th December 2007, 10:44

Really? OMG. Are you sure, how can you tell? You mean that lip I'm talking about is actually part of the old seal??? Wow.

10th December 2007, 10:47

yeah.

when i first done mine i thought i had it all out and the new 1 wouldnt fit in. i didnt try as hard as you to force the new 1 in though

use a small flat screw driver to prize it off. time and weather will off made it go hard and stick to the arm.

10th December 2007, 10:52

You're my hero.

As come to think of it, when I pulled / scraped all the bits of old seal out I never pulled a big ring of metal out, the same size as the outter edge of the new seal! Awesome mate, thanks for spotting that, you've just possibly saved me from selling the car!

10th December 2007, 10:55

lol, dont worry whenthings like this happen man!!!! these cars are simple so theres never a serious problem

just buy me some beer if you ever meet me anywhere

10th December 2007, 11:06

I'm sure I owe you a beer already... from another time you gave me advice about the rear axle! haha. So, 2 beers it is then.

I've had word from pug that the other seal won't be in till tomorrow morning, so I won't be able to do this tonight. I'll have to go another day of driving with no seal!

I've ordered another seal, as the first one is a little messed up now. I should everything back together tomorow evening. I'm hoping the other seal on the other side will come out a little easier than the first one!!!

10th December 2007, 12:12

One other thing Williams mate...

Something that's worrying me a bit. Bare in mind that I only had new bearings put in 2 weeks ago... Doing the usual check for play, twisting the wheel, is all fine. It's nice and solid. However... With the wheel off, if I grab the trailling arm, and push it back and forward, it doesn't exactly move, but instead, I can hear a dull knocking type of sound from the axle area. If I go to the other trilling arm, I get the same noise. It doesn't seem to be coming from each arm, it seem to be coming from a central point somewhere on the axle. Do you have any idea what this could be? It can't be the bearings, as they are brand new... I remember doing the same test before I had the new bearings, and it made the exact same noise.

Just to go over it again... You can't twist the trailling arm, it's seems pretty nice and tight. But if you try shaking it back and forth, I.e., away and towards the axle, there's a dull thud / knock type of noise coming from the axle. Oddly enough, you get the same noise when doing the same thing on the other trailling arm. It's as if something is loose?

10th December 2007, 13:53

is the beam on the car tight? is it not the ARB in the beam?

10th December 2007, 14:17

I don't think it's the ARB, as it was out at the time IIRC. I will double check... How can I check if the beam is on tight? Do I need to check the clamp things that house the bushes?

10th December 2007, 14:21

it just bolts to the car using 4 bolts. you can get to these from under the rear bench.

10th December 2007, 14:28

Those 4 bolts are the ones that house the bushes though right? Or have I got this wrong in my head? I'm sure it will make sense when I get underneath and take a good look.

So, if the bearings are good, and the ARB is good, any knocking still occuring can only be the whole axle not quite fitted tightly? Are there any other parts that might be worn that couse cause an issue? When the chaps did the bearings a few weeks back, they said everything looked fine.

10th December 2007, 20:50

no i think he means the axel bolts are accessed form inside the car so nice and easy for you

10th December 2007, 20:54

Oh right... I wondered what he meant by "rear bench"

10th December 2007, 21:57

yeah, they are the ones that have the bushs on aswell. nut 1 side, bolt on the other

11th December 2007, 09:24

Cheers again mate. I'll get tightening then!

11th December 2007, 23:12

Good news chaps. I spent over 2 hours tonight in the sub-zero climate! But I think it's going to pay off. I managed to get 2 new seals pressed in everything is looking good.

Here's some pics:

I didn't go easy on the grease! lol

I used a long thingiemabob, and spread LOADS of grease all the way inside, real deep down the tube. There's still remains of water in there, but not a lot I can do really. I've put so much grease from the end to about 30cm in, so that should keep the bearings well protected.

I noticed the new seals didn't go in quite as far as the old ones, making me realise that the old ones weren't doing any good at all!

I think that's how water was getting in. When I was hammering in the end plates, I could feel the springyness of te plates pushing against the new seals. SO fingers crossed it should be all gravey.

Thanks again Williams, you were right on the money. I chisled those old metal rings out no problem.

11th December 2007, 23:19

So have you got it all back together now then mate, and is there a marked improvement?

11th December 2007, 23:34

Haven't driven it yet, but it's all back together, yes mate. Will let you know tomorrow. I'm still worried about this noise I get when I shake either trailling arm though. Oh uh...

12th December 2007, 10:13

Seems to be OK for now... Haven't really given it a true test, but fingers crossed!

Oh yeah, just me being totally anal! But I after I finished putting the end plates in, I went around the outter parts of the end plates with silicone sealant. I know I didn't have to, but it just makes it less likely for stuff to get in there.

2nd June 2008, 09:25

Gotta bump this up.

Had my back wheels off the other day and noticed that the bolt that holds the ARB plate on the drivers side was not there. So i replaced this and now i am starting to get the same sort of problem.

Getting a ping when going over bumps and around corners, seems strange that it is only happening since replacing that bolt.

What would i need to do? Does replacing the parts stated on this thread actually cure this problem?

2nd June 2008, 10:11

arb end plate bolt hole is worn, and chances are there's water in your beam depending how long the bolt has been missing

7th June 2008, 11:50

Problem all sorted.

Took end plates off, no sign of water or anything in beam, 0% play in arms. Replaced with new seals, end plates and bolts. Now no noise what so ever, result.

3rd October 2010, 08:49

I just crowded a bolt into the arb plate where the 13mm one should be and welded it in and also welded the plate to the arm so it cant go anywhere.

11th January 2014, 19:36

Hi guys, very informative thread, I have been having similar axel problems for over a year now, please help.

If the bolt hole in my radius arm (Drivers side) is oval shape (ish) is it stuffed? My mechanic has already put two new bolts in and cleaned out the threads but both times the bolt seems to 'work its way out' and im back to square one. My ARB end plate hole is clearly worn which is fine I can replace all those bits.

Any advice is greatly appreciated! I cant seem to insert an image without it being on a webpage??

Josh