Headwork

  1. Infrequent Poster Joined: Jun 2006 Moira United Kingdom (Northern Ireland) Posts: 130 Some German scrap
    #1
    Hi all,

    I know this varies for different areas but i was looking to get the head of my VTR skimmed and ported. What sorta price am I looking at and what possible gains befall me? And if any NI folks know of any good places for the work id be grateful.

    Thanks in advance
  2. L-plater Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 60
    #2
    i heard of a g40 polo getn port n polished for 400? hope this may help kinda price range
  3. Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802
    #3
    The cylinder head is the core of your engine. Your gains will be related to how well you match your complimentary engine components to the work carried out.

    There are gains to be made on the VTR head around the exhaust port, massive gains.

    You'd be looking at around £400-£600 for *everything* if you wanted RCD to do headwork for you.

    Andy
    RCD Performance
  4. Infrequent Poster Joined: Jun 2006 Moira United Kingdom (Northern Ireland) Posts: 130 Some German scrap
    #4
    Well the saxo in question will have a full SSprint system, enclosed air filter yada yada. A high lift cam will also be used later on. Spose its best gettin this done at the same time?
  5. L-plater Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 60
    #5
    what power gains we get out of this?
  6. Established Member Joined: Dec 2007 Southampton Posts: 2278
    #6
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by paul_vtr666 View Post
    Well the saxo in question will have a full SSprint system, enclosed air filter yada yada. A high lift cam will also be used later on. Spose its best gettin this done at the same time?
    Makes practical sense too do just that mate

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Yeti View Post
    what power gains we get out of this?
    Depends on what cams are used etc etc, but the head on its own, best to let Luthor1 answer that as i've never come across a standard engine with a PnP head lol

    Ross
    RCD
  7. Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802
    #7
    Paul - what plans do you have in place for engine management?

    Andy
    RCD Performance
  8. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2003 United Kingdom (England) Posts: 7064
    #8
    Whats your budget & plans?

    Vts transplant may give more bhp per £££!
  9. Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2007 dublin Posts: 768 saxo vts- r5 raider
    #9
    lad if ur genuinly interested pm me and ill get onto a lad who is very good at it but hes down in the dublin area.

    top notch work cant fault the prices he charges either
  10. Established Member Joined: May 2006 Posts: 2279
    #10
    Qep big valve heads are always raved about but they will set you back big bucks!! But unless your going for cams and boddies i would say leave the headwork and put the money to better use on suspension and brakes!
  11. Established Member Joined: Dec 2007 Southampton Posts: 2278
    #11
    I disagree with the bit where you say money spent of head is better spent elsehwere, people tend to forget that the head is the centre of the engine.

    And no matter how much money you throw at an engine if the head is not up to scratch, its pointless.

    Ross
    RCD Performance
  12. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Aug 2007 blandiago Posts: 4483 Hondaaaa
    #12
    i got quoted 350 by ktec for my vtr head to be be done in bmouth im gunna get it done just saving up so far got 200 saved , need to save another 300 tho cos of the amount of things i want done get it all done at once i say
  13. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RCD-Performance View Post
    I disagree with the bit where you say money spent of head is better spent elsehwere, people tend to forget that the head is the centre of the engine.

    And no matter how much money you throw at an engine if the head is not up to scratch, its pointless.

    Ross
    RCD Performance

    stating that the money is better spent on brakes and suspension is better though, a good head, wont stop a car or give it the ability to corner, half of the times on track a big spec engined car will be beaten if the suspension and brakes are not up to scratch
  14. Established Member Joined: Dec 2007 Southampton Posts: 2278
    #14
    Oh i agree completely matey, brakes and suspension are my first port of call on any car i own.

    However vtr 130 said, "unless your going for cams or bodies" which is not true, headwork is of great importance on any modified engine

    Ross
    RCD
  15. Established Member Joined: May 2006 Posts: 2279
    #15
    But the true gains of an expensive head will not be maximised without decent cams or boddies!! I just couldn't compensate spending £400-1k on a head then only getting 3-4bhp of a gain. I doubt the manifold will flow aswell as the head or the vtr inlet so would be rather pointless in my eyes. But if your planning to run boddies its a good idea. I want to get my head done again to be honest, but i will wait till i go for 300 degree cams.
  16. Established Member Joined: Dec 2007 Southampton Posts: 2278
    #16
    The inlet and exhuast as stnadard on a VTS, (not checked the VTR yet, however we will be shortly) poses NO restriction to flow until around 240. So theres that settled. And if you spend upwards of £1k on a head, you need your "head" testing lol.

    Its the centre of the engine, as i keep saying, and is one of the first things that should be done, making adding TB's or cams at a later stage will only compensate it, rather than the head holding it back.

    Ross
    RCD Performance
  17. Established Member Joined: May 2006 Posts: 2279
    #17
    Well while the heads of you would want to do the cams!! That would be a waste of money!

    240 what?

    So what if its the centre of the engine, i would just want to port and polish a head for minimal gains. I would rather by some nice suspension and brakes.

    Yes if your going for tb's cams etc... Its worth it, but 160bhp is easily acheviable of a set of cams, decent breathing mods and a remap (vts obv)
  18. Established Member Joined: Dec 2007 Southampton Posts: 2278
    #18
    Why would it be? Cams only take an hour or so to fit if you know you way round the particular engine?

    240 hp.

    I'm not refering to uspension or brakes, im refering to the fact that if your modifying the engine period, headwork is a good place to start after the normal exhuast and inlet modifications.

    Ross
    RCD Performance.
  19. Established Member Joined: May 2006 Posts: 2279
    #19
    240hp!? Ok then, why would you be saying headwork is good if the standard headwork is ok to 240hp?? Now your confusing me!!
  20. Established Member Joined: Dec 2007 Southampton Posts: 2278
    #20
    RE-read what i put ,

    You wouldn't get that power without major modification, for which you would remove the inlet, however i'm saying it can flow gases for that power.
  21. Established Member Joined: May 2006 Posts: 2279
    #21
    Well your not going to change my mind i dnt think headwork is the best place to start i wouldnt like to go fast and not have the confidence in my breaking ability.
  22. Established Member Joined: Dec 2007 Southampton Posts: 2278
    #22
    I dont think you seeing my point.

    YES braking and suspension is the most important point in any car.

    BUT i was not considering that fact into the point when the original question posed was concerning headwork!

    To be fair my job is not to change your mind, it is too give the advice that i see fit

    Ross
    RCD
  23. Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802
    #23
    I think the post is talking about "engine" mods, and should we not assume that the owner of the vehicle which is receiving the tuning will be aware that funds should also be put aside for suspension and braking *on top* of any funding put aside for engine tuning?

    I don't remember this thread starter asking how to spend the budget, just talking solely about engine tuning.

    Personally, my assumption would be that suspension and braking upgrades would be performed from a *different pot* to that which is set aside for headwork tuning which is THIS topic?

    VTR130, if you had your £8500 budget to spend again on your engine from scratch, from your experience, what have you learnt? How, if at all, would you do it differently?

    Andy
    RCD Performance
  24. Established Member Joined: May 2006 Posts: 2279
    #24
    Well i would save up and build the engine as a one off not 4 times

    Saves money that way, and btw its about 6k to be honest!!

    But i would defo like to have done some more research into the build as i believe the 809s arent big enough, but to get 320 degree cams the whole engine will have to be rebuilt and thats alot of effort.

    But well see wot happens next year
  25. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #25
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RCD-Performance View Post
    The inlet and exhuast as stnadard on a VTS, (not checked the VTR yet, however we will be shortly) poses NO restriction to flow until around 240. So theres that settled. And if you spend upwards of £1k on a head, you need your "head" testing lol.

    Its the centre of the engine, as i keep saying, and is one of the first things that should be done, making adding TB's or cams at a later stage will only compensate it, rather than the head holding it back.

    Ross
    RCD Performance
    Read George Ls progress thread on SSC, for information which has chyanged alot of peoples opinions about headwork, and the amount NEEDED for a decent head.
  26. Established Member Joined: May 2006 Posts: 2279
    #26
    Thats is one very interesting thread!
  27. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #27
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vtr130 View Post
    Thats is one very interesting thread!
    Pumaspeed are very highly recommened tuners, and have a reputation amongst the best in the industry, qep have been working closely with them, and its interesting to see how matt is shocked at the amount of time and labour that is spent on doing a new head job. I belive he said it will take one additional days labour to build a head to the same spec as the pumaspeed muel.

    that head is making 180+ bhp on Hydro cams very easily, with a very useable powerband
  28. Established Member Joined: May 2006 Posts: 2279
    #28
    Yeh but i dont think they have a price list on it yet? If i do ever decide to rebuild my engine i will be approaching matt for another head to match the profile of the cams, but then i will need to get the boddies port matched to the head, this shit never ends, lol!!
  29. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #29
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vtr130 View Post
    Yeh but i dont think they have a price list on it yet? If i do ever decide to rebuild my engine i will be approaching matt for another head to match the profile of the cams, but then i will need to get the boddies port matched to the head, this shit never ends, lol!!
    your lucky you are ahead of me, I need to get forgies so i can run the 734s, aswell as the headwork.

    I need to run some saucy times on track and try and get sponsored to lol!!!

    Id ecpect the new heads to be over 1k, seeing as the current BV heads are about £800 inc vat irc, and the labour on the new ones is alot higher.
  30. Established Member Joined: May 2006 Posts: 2279
    #30
    Yeh i can imagine they are going to be very expensive but should be worth it!! Hopefully i will be able to get trade on the heads.
  31. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #31
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vtr130 View Post
    Yeh i can imagine they are going to be very expensive but should be worth it!! Hopefully i will be able to get trade on the heads.
    i need to try and beg matt lol!!

    ive got a to chase alex now hes got ians engine, i wanted his car lol"!
  32. Established Member Joined: May 2006 Posts: 2279
    #32
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    i need to try and beg matt lol!!

    ive got a to chase alex now hes got ians engine, i wanted his car lol"!
    Haha yeh mate you should have snapped that up, its an awsum car!
  33. Infrequent Poster Joined: Jun 2006 Moira United Kingdom (Northern Ireland) Posts: 130 Some German scrap
    #33
    Flip me what happened?!?!? Some of the stuff going on here is beyond me. Right basically, the suspension and the brakes in the car have been sorted. So no need to be concerned about that.

    I am just looking on advice on people to go to. What can I expect to pay? Any rough gains? Also what cams would be best to use for my setup?

    luthor1 - no plans on engine management just yet. Advice would be appreciated though.

    Now the car will be used as a daily driver and not a track car so it needs to be powerful enough while staying stable. Anyone??
  34. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Oct 2007 Spalding-ish Posts: 2512 Mk4 Anniversary golf. 106 Quiksallye
    #34
    Whats your current engine spec and whats your buget?
  35. Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802
    #35
    I agree with VTSTom - need a budget and current spec, and where you would *like* to be, and how you'd *like* the car to drive and you'll get a LOT of responses

    Andy
    RCD Performance
  36. Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802
    #36
    Re: Engine management - there are a number of options, you can have the original ECU remapped on a one-off basis, for around £450 (correct me if I'm wrong guys). You then have our Plug-n-Play standalone ECU replacement which is 100% remappable time and again. That's £695 including *everything* fitted and mapped and inc VAT. Then you can go more expensive on other standalone solutions, and these can range from £900-£1500.

    With our ECU we are trying to fill the niche between one-off and existing standalone solutions.

    Andy
    RCD Performance
  37. Established Member Joined: May 2006 Posts: 2279
    #37
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by paul_vtr666 View Post
    Flip me what happened?!?!? Some of the stuff going on here is beyond me. Right basically, the suspension and the brakes in the car have been sorted. So no need to be concerned about that.

    I am just looking on advice on people to go to. What can I expect to pay? Any rough gains? Also what cams would be best to use for my setup?

    luthor1 - no plans on engine management just yet. Advice would be appreciated though.

    Now the car will be used as a daily driver and not a track car so it needs to be powerful enough while staying stable. Anyone??
    Personally mate i would look at getting a 1.3 rallye inlet, set of cams not sure wot are avaliable for a vtr, then get that mapped thats if you have all the other breathing mods already. I would personally leave the head, because a large gain will most likely not be seen over a standard one.