Camming a GTI

17th February 2008, 23:08

Hello all,

Have used the search feature but cant find what I'm after.

Have another years MOT on the Gti so now want a bit more power.

I have a enclosed raceland filter (C/W green filter), supersprint mani, soon to be ordered race tube inc decat and now want some cat cams to compliment this.

Interested in the 708's but reluctant to go sandalone for the expense and hassle. If I fit the 708's will it be ok to drive without a remap? If not can I go unichip route or similar? Also will it retain the reliablility such as cold start ect?

The most important question is will it pass the emissions test come next year as I DON'T want to rely on "Naughty MOTs."

Any help or advice will be much appreciated.

Regards,

Matt

17th February 2008, 23:13

my mates got a GIT on 708s with standard ecu.. goes like stink... it goes fuckin well so damn well oh my gosh wet panties....

lol. hes gettin stand alone next month

17th February 2008, 23:14

good mods so far and wise choice on cat cams.
tbh i think your best choice is probably contact RCD Performance as they can supply fit and map a megasquirt ecu for about £650, and they are on her so you can ask them questions.

failing that get your standard ecu re-mapped

17th February 2008, 23:24

Cheers guys very helpful. Will emissions be a problem with these?

Matt

17th February 2008, 23:32

yes but dont worry about it for a year

17th February 2008, 23:34

Na, thats my point. I really don't want to worry about it again. Cost a lot of my time and money. Thanks for the advice.

Matt

17th February 2008, 23:40

It will pass an emmisions test with our ECU and cam choice mentioned above

Contact me for further information on our ECU systems and how they would compliment your mods.

Ross
RCD.

18th February 2008, 01:05

but willir pass with standard ecu onceyou stick the cat back on obviosly.

18th February 2008, 01:13

depending on the spec of the engine, some will run very poorly or not at all with the standard ECU

18th February 2008, 10:08

Lol, get the car running properly first mate...

18th February 2008, 16:52

Ye good point Toad. Runs very well, its just the tickover is as rough as a bag of smashed crabs! So with cams might even struggle to tickover?

Time to have me injectors overhauled!!

18th February 2008, 17:01

Your cams will not performance anywhere near as well on the standard ECU as what they would on a stnadalone package, with our standardalone systems being priced as they are, its the next best thing for you too go with

You will struggle like buggery to get the tick over any where near good with the cams on the standard ECU.

Ross
RCD Performance

18th February 2008, 17:03

Lumpy idles rock..:d

18th February 2008, 18:27

I had 708's on a standard ecu for 4 months and it passed an mot fine with the standard exhaust on!! And to be honest it wasnt actually lumpy at all.

18th February 2008, 18:54

Cheers Ross,

What management do you specialise in?

Have heard things about loosing reliable cold start ect with standalone systems?

Regards,

Matt

18th February 2008, 19:04

No standalone systems are fine for cold start as long as they are set up ok!! Omex 600 is the way forward!

18th February 2008, 19:22

Hi Matt, We specialise in trhe Megasquirt system, and are also 99% of the way through developing a 100% Plug and Play Standalone system for the saxo VTS, and VTR, 106 GTI etc ECU's are too follow.

We are also, please correct me if i'm wrong, the supplier of the cheapest PnP Standalone Engine Management system for the Saxo

And also the most feature-full

Ross
RCD Performance.

18th February 2008, 20:04

hey mate, jus out of interest, how much would it be for say 280 cams, with standalone, all mapped and fitted to a 3 plug 106 gti? only out of interested as i wanna get the show season out of the way and a few pennies saved up, lol

18th February 2008, 20:18

Our ECU roadmap is VTS 1-plug, VTR 1-plug, VTS 3-plug, VTR 3-plug.

The 106gti 3-plug is obviously phase 3 of our development plan as in theory it should be the same as the VTS 3-plug.

To that end, we will be targetting the same price bracket for all our ECU products, which is currently £695 fitted and mapped drive-in drive-out and that's including VAT.

Cams you can choose which ever you like, we are not in any particularly good position to get great deals on those, since forum group buys seem to get great prices

For the record, I'd like to distance myself from the above comments regarding stock management with extensive tuning mods where it includes aftermarket camshafts. It would not be our recommendation to run stock management with that level of camshaft. Apologies if that's not what the poster is referring to!

Andy
RCD Performance

18th February 2008, 20:30

PS. Our PnP system, and indeed our Megasquirt offering, supports fully configurablecontrol of the *standard* IAC idle control system so total control over the warmup idle of the car

Andy
RCD Performance

18th February 2008, 23:09

So im confused is a megasquirt a standalone or a piggy back ecu?? And this ecu you are developing is a remapped standard one?

19th February 2008, 08:10

Firstly, RCD will *never* sell, or fit a piggyback ECU.

Megasquirt is completely standalone, and we would need to either make an adapter loom or splice directly into the existing loom.

Out PnP replacement ECU system fits in the original ECU case and uses the original plug to connect to the loom, thus mounting in the original position. Then simply run a wire to the cabin to tune with a laptop.

Just to re-iterate and be perfectly clear - we do *NOT* remap the original ECU, we wil *NEVER* fit a piggy back unit. We have designed and manufactured a completely standalone ECU which we have engineered to fit inside the standard case and use the standard plug.

Andy
RCD Performance

19th February 2008, 10:33

Ok just trying to understand what you are developing, i dont like the idea of piggy back ecu's!! But why go through all this development, when porbably buying an omex would be cheaper?

19th February 2008, 10:51

VTR130,

I think you're asking a lot of questions that have already been answered in our affiliates section.

Our prices make us *easily* the *CHEAPEST* standalone ECU available on the market today, so I'm not sure how you think Omex would be a cheaper option?

Andy
RCD Performance

19th February 2008, 11:16

Well i would like to be proved wrong lets just see how long you stick around for and what your demo car turns out to be like!! If it beats mine i will praise you all over the web

19th February 2008, 11:28

VTR130, we are not here to *beat* anyone? We are just trying to offer services of value, and make an honest living

Our PnP ECU is £695 inc vat, fitting and mapping. How much is the Omex fitted and mapped inc Vat?

Hopefully our product profile will grow - we are having a PnP throttle body kit developed as we speak, along with a cylinder head at around the £500 mark.

We don't currently have the final spec for the head as it's being discussed at present - there is so much to do and so much interest and anticipation! Premises by the end of the week we hope, first PnP ECU in under 3 weeks...

Andy
RCD Performance

19th February 2008, 11:47

Are you making a big valve head? Because they are popular and i would like to see a very good head, and seen as you like to say that heads are the main part of the engine, then i would like to see wot you can produce....

Well a PnP tb kit! I dont quite understand what your trying to do here, jenvey have a monopoly in this market and i will be very suprised if you could offer anything better than what is on the market.

I just don't want to see another LAD develop with over quoted figures etc... Depriving people of the hard earned cash ( This isn't aimed at you just in general)

What is the idea with the project car? Becoz for people to believe it is a good project power figures aren't just whats needed... As they are bragging rights.

19th February 2008, 11:59

Yes, we have a head tuner who will be working on a BV head for us, this is in the pipeline, as is everything since we are so new!

When you buy our throttle body kit, you will receive 100% of the required parts to fit it to your car. You won't have to go and buy a linkage from elsewhere, or a TPS, or trumpets, or a filter solution, or a manifold or *anything*. You will buy our kit, and it will fit perfectly to your car with just time and tools. We are aiming to be significantly cheaper whilst offering equal-or-better performance.

It would be nice to not be labelled as 'conmen' so soon into our efforts, is there anyway we can avoid this? We are honest developers new to the market, if what we attempt works, if not we will be honest about that aswell.

We have 2 project cars now, the track car, and the road car. The road car will be a subtle compromise with plenty of power, complimented with fast-road suspension and braking packages to provide an exhilirating compromise which works in the real world. The track car will not be so compromised and is being designed to delivery uncompromised performance on track!

We have no wish or need for *bragging rights* however only a few posts ago you revealed that were we to "beat" your car you would compliment us publically all over the internet?

I'm loving this project, and the development, and what truly comes out of it will be honestly revealed here!!

Andy
RCD Performance

19th February 2008, 13:05

Obviously I haven't been keeping up with the times Andy. You mention you are preparing a TB kit, this is excellent news. I don't know if you remember the discussions we were having a few weeks ago about TB setups for myself?

Anyway, keep up the good work.

19th February 2008, 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthor1

Yes, we have a head tuner who will be working on a BV head for us, this is in the pipeline, as is everything since we are so new!

When you buy our throttle body kit, you will receive 100% of the required parts to fit it to your car. You won't have to go and buy a linkage from elsewhere, or a TPS, or trumpets, or a filter solution, or a manifold or *anything*. You will buy our kit, and it will fit perfectly to your car with just time and tools. We are aiming to be significantly cheaper whilst offering equal-or-better performance.

It would be nice to not be labelled as 'conmen' so soon into our efforts, is there anyway we can avoid this? We are honest developers new to the market, if what we attempt works, if not we will be honest about that aswell.

We have 2 project cars now, the track car, and the road car. The road car will be a subtle compromise with plenty of power, complimented with fast-road suspension and braking packages to provide an exhilirating compromise which works in the real world. The track car will not be so compromised and is being designed to delivery uncompromised performance on track!

We have no wish or need for *bragging rights* however only a few posts ago you revealed that were we to "beat" your car you would compliment us publically all over the internet?

I'm loving this project, and the development, and what truly comes out of it will be honestly revealed here!!

Andy
RCD Performance

I just know alot of tuners who can talk the talk but never produce the goods i stand to be corrected tho....

If i were you i wouldnt quote unrealistic figures!! Big no no, i just hope the development goes well and that you can prove yourself within the tuning world.

But other companies such as pug1off built a twin enginned 306 to establish themselves, so there is alot of stiff competiiton out there. I will be interested in seing how the track saxo goes though.

Surely if your not compromising there will be 300 degree + cams?

Im not trying to be arsy so dnt take anything the wrong way.

19th February 2008, 16:06

The figures we talk about in theory are just that - theoretical power potential derived from flow bench results. This is a maximum the head can deliver and does *NOT* represent what *WILL* come out of the engine once the iTB's and exhaust manifold/exhaust system are fitted.

The development and experimental work we are doing will allow us to derive our cost-effective bang-for-buck upgrade path for customers backed up by reputable dyno runs.

How much of the potential we are able to realise is one of the unknowns currently. The most interesting will be the cam choice. In terms of bang-for-buck you want to stay with hydraulic, however due to the diameter of the followers, it's not possible to get the optimum lift without having overly long duration. For example, ideally we'd target 11.5mm lift on a 270 duration, but the follower diameter means on that cam the oil film would be cut through and everything would go wrong so we can't go the optimum route

One possibility is to grind out and fit larger followers from another vehicle... this is a possibility.

Hopefully a fresh set of eyes on the VTS/106 engine, and an uninhibited approach to tuning will benefit the community, and that's our target. Perhaps we'll learn nothing new and that would be a shame, but perhaps we can provide good products at highly competitive prices and that's a positive!

Our target for the track car would be around 200bhp, and the road one around 170+bhp, perhaps these won't happen but it won't stop us trying!

We will sell products off the back of dyno results and nothing more, that's a guarentee.

Andy
RCD Performance

19th February 2008, 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthor1

The figures we talk about in theory are just that - theoretical power potential derived from flow bench results. This is a maximum the head can deliver and does *NOT* represent what *WILL* come out of the engine once the iTB's and exhaust manifold/exhaust system are fitted.

The development and experimental work we are doing will allow us to derive our cost-effective bang-for-buck upgrade path for customers backed up by reputable dyno runs.

How much of the potential we are able to realise is one of the unknowns currently. The most interesting will be the cam choice. In terms of bang-for-buck you want to stay with hydraulic, however due to the diameter of the followers, it's not possible to get the optimum lift without having overly long duration. For example, ideally we'd target 11.5mm lift on a 270 duration, but the follower diameter means on that cam the oil film would be cut through and everything would go wrong so we can't go the optimum route

One possibility is to grind out and fit larger followers from another vehicle... this is a possibility.

Hopefully a fresh set of eyes on the VTS/106 engine, and an uninhibited approach to tuning will benefit the community, and that's our target. Perhaps we'll learn nothing new and that would be a shame, but perhaps we can provide good products at highly competitive prices and that's a positive!

Our target for the track car would be around 200bhp, and the road one around 170+bhp, perhaps these won't happen but it won't stop us trying!

We will sell products off the back of dyno results and nothing more, that's a guarentee.

Andy
RCD Performance

For one the most agressive lift you can achieve on standard pistons is 10mm and then you still get the valve fowling the pistons as i did with my 708's!!

734's are probably the best cams you can use on hydrolics, after that it will just ruin the engine. I believe that your figures are over realistic, 170bhp won't be achieved without tb's and 200bhp will just make a peaky engine with no low down grunt.

So i hope your figures come out ok, and wont be made up like LAD!?

With regards to the heads no one will be able to match the ones QEP are developing as they are working with some of the best engine tuners in the country to maximise the flow. On the flow bench i wouldn't believe the figures it gives you as they will most likely not be atainable.

But i look forward to some figures. Just watch the strong comments you are making on this site, there are alot of people that have a great knowledge of tu engines and will know what is bullshit.

GOODLUCK.

19th February 2008, 22:11

Firstly, the road one will have TB's so no problem there... I am well aware of Dave Baker of Puma working with QEP, and yes he is one of the best in the country, our headman specialises in Elises, and also has over 20 years head tuning. He made heads for the 1.6 K-series engined MGZR hatch race series where they were making in excess of 205bhp on the 1.6 engine, so we are not talking about taking a dremmel to the ports!

I'd really appreciate it if you'd refer any further comments regarding our endeavours to PM, since that's the 3rd time you've compared our work (which noone has yet seen) to L.A.D motorsport who *everyone* is fully aware deliver over-inflated BHP figures, and sell for top dollar.

They fit their "secret" cylinder head, and adjust the exhaust timing, and claim 160bhp. We all know this, can you please take any further reference to them and RCD Performance to PM please, as the public comparison, I believe, is becoming fairly regular and entirely unfair.

As I've said in the past, we are approaching these cars and engines as enthusiasts, and would like to be judged on what we honestly deliver. To continue to be told "we are more expensive than OMEX" and "we make our figures up like L.A.D" is becoming a little difficult to take.

On a final note - are you saying that fitting 708 cams will cause the valves to hit the pistons? I'd just liket o clear that up... you wrote "...For one the most agressive lift you can achieve on standard pistons is 10mm and then you still get the valve fowling the pistons as i did with my 708's!!" so are you saying it's *not* possible to fit the 708 cam to a standard engine without it fouling the pistons? Just curious.

Andy
RCD Performance

19th February 2008, 23:25

Im not sure if it was slapping due to hitting the rev limit, or on cold but the top of my pistons had marks in it from the valves, and i ended up with two bent ones when the engine was stripped.

Well good luck i wish you the best with your tuning efforts. I will not say anymore negative comments!

20th February 2008, 08:43

You should be fine Andy. I've been running 708s for a while now, and after recently taking off the head, there wasn't a scratch on the pistons. IIRC, you should see about 1.5mm of clearance @ TDC.