VTS vs cammed VTS

1. Pat_Vts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 North London Posts: 6170 Land Rover Discovery

   #1 17th March 2008, 15:03

   a VTS with enclosed induction, 4-2-1 mainfold and full de-catted exhaust system vs another a VTS with enclosed induction, 4-2-1 mainfold and full de-catted exhaust system but with cams and remap
   
   what would the difference be, accleration wise and top end also powerband and petrol and its effects on reliabilty???
   
   i need to know before i do VTS conversion this summer...
2. Quick Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2003 United Kingdom (England) Posts: 7064

   #2 17th March 2008, 15:10

   There is no reason why a camm'd Vts shouldn't be any different on reliablity as long as its maintained properly & treated respectfully!
3. Mikey Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 Blackburn Posts: 12035 GTI/VTS/VXR/S-line

   #3 17th March 2008, 15:18

   cammed vts's run a bit crapper mate. they dont tend to tick over as good. but you do feel the difference in acceleration. the engine picks up a lot better imo.
   
   also depends on what cams you go for,that will effect how it runs.
4. Pat_Vts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 North London Posts: 6170 Land Rover Discovery

   #4 17th March 2008, 15:24

   so generally cams are not worth it if im using the car everyday?...
5. Pat_Vts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 North London Posts: 6170 Land Rover Discovery

   #5 17th March 2008, 15:25

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Quick There is no reason why a camm'd Vts shouldn't be any different on reliablity as long as its maintained properly & treated respectfully!

   what you mean respectfully?...
6. Mikey Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 Blackburn Posts: 12035 GTI/VTS/VXR/S-line

   #6 17th March 2008, 15:26

   if you get road cam it should be okay
7. Pat_Vts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 North London Posts: 6170 Land Rover Discovery

   #7 17th March 2008, 15:27

   so ... http://www.kam-racing.co.uk/product_...roducts_id/749
   
   they will be ok?
8. Paul_Collins Established Member Joined: Apr 2006 Bridgend, S. Wales Posts: 1092 MkII White VTS

   #8 17th March 2008, 15:28

   tick over is fine, also fine for an everyday car, depends on who maps it and what cams you get.
   
   Bag of shite without map tho.
9. Pat_Vts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 North London Posts: 6170 Land Rover Discovery

   #9 17th March 2008, 15:30

   proper re-map obviously...by somebody professional... hmmm but there is a video on youtube of a cammed VTS on saxosports club which is very rapid ... i will get the link
10. Paul_Collins Established Member Joined: Apr 2006 Bridgend, S. Wales Posts: 1092 MkII White VTS

    #10 17th March 2008, 15:31

    Yeah they are fine, thats what im running.
11. Pat_Vts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 North London Posts: 6170 Land Rover Discovery

    #11 17th March 2008, 15:31

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=VGTJvgNQAKc
    
    is that a realistic cammed VTS or not, or is he going downhill? lol hmm
12. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #12 17th March 2008, 15:32

    All depends what camshafts you are refering to...
13. Pat_Vts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 North London Posts: 6170 Land Rover Discovery

    #13 17th March 2008, 15:35

    the ones from kam-racing as i posted in the link earlier...
14. RCD-Performance Established Member Joined: Dec 2007 Southampton Posts: 2278

    #14 17th March 2008, 15:53

    99% of cams will idle very well if setup and mapped correctly!
    
    They will also be very reliable, if mapped correctly. And obviously not revved too high.
15. Quick Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2003 United Kingdom (England) Posts: 7064

    #15 17th March 2008, 15:56

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by vtrapid what you mean respectfully?...

    
    Not cained from cold! No Wheelspining at your local Maccie Dees!
16. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #16 17th March 2008, 16:09

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by vtrapid the ones from kam-racing as i posted in the link earlier...

    They'll be fine. On stock intake the idle won't be as good as with stock camshafts, but it won't be bad enough to warrant it being useless as a road car.
17. Pat_Vts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 North London Posts: 6170 Land Rover Discovery

    #17 17th March 2008, 16:28

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Quick Not cained from cold! No Wheelspining at your local Maccie Dees!

    hmmmm lol
18. Pat_Vts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 North London Posts: 6170 Land Rover Discovery

    #18 17th March 2008, 16:33

    what is the VTS as i mentioned firstly like in terms of power and accleration in comparision to a cammed one what is the difference and is it alot or?
19. Mikey Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 Blackburn Posts: 12035 GTI/VTS/VXR/S-line

    #19 17th March 2008, 17:00

    a cammed vts will surely run worse than a normal vts...how can a non stadard part run just as well!!
20. andyb80 L-plater Joined: Jan 2008 consett Posts: 87 saxo vtr mk1 1998

    #20 17th March 2008, 17:00

    off the mark none but around 4000rpm when cams kick in will see diffrence
21. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #21 17th March 2008, 17:21

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by vtrapid what is the VTS as i mentioned firstly like in terms of power and accleration in comparision to a cammed one what is the difference and is it alot or?

    You need to have a ride in both to get a real idea...
22. Pat_Vts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 North London Posts: 6170 Land Rover Discovery

    #22 17th March 2008, 19:07

    i know... i cant though and looking on youtube between the two VTS engines it seems no difference?... ahhh might just keep it a simple VTS lump rather than with cams for abit in the summer then see how it goes...
23. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #23 17th March 2008, 19:11

    Hehe, don't use YouTube to base your judgement on what's better here. There's plenty of folk with fast road camshafts installed who would be more than happy to give you a ride.
24. user_11067 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Aug 2006 Ashford kent Posts: 3161 PoP! bAnG! pOp! BaNg!

    #24 17th March 2008, 19:14

    the idle isnt as bad as your thinking mate....
    
    will be a tiny tiny bit lumpierer than normal but tbh you wont notice as an outsider.
    
    but yeah pre map they run like a pig...
25. RCD-Performance Established Member Joined: Dec 2007 Southampton Posts: 2278

    #25 17th March 2008, 19:38

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mikey a cammed vts will surely run worse than a normal vts...how can a non stadard part run just as well!!

    A well mapped cammed engine will Idle, Run, sound, just as healthily as a standard engine. The outside viewer will not be able to tell the difference.
    
    A badly setup/mapped cammed engine, will sound, idle and run like a bag of nails.
26. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #26 17th March 2008, 19:46

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RCD-Performance A well mapped cammed engine will Idle, Run, sound, just as healthily as a standard engine. The outside viewer will not be able to tell the difference. A badly setup/mapped cammed engine, will sound, idle and run like a bag of nails.

    Sadly mine's the latter... But power seems fairly good though.
    
    You'll get to see for yourself Ross, it idles like absolute turd!
27. RCD-Performance Established Member Joined: Dec 2007 Southampton Posts: 2278

    #27 17th March 2008, 19:51

    See theres the real reason your coming down, theres me thinking you wanted to see me lmao!
28. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #28 17th March 2008, 19:55

    Shit man, I regret not breaking it to you less harshly. Soz... lol
29. GT3 Frequent Poster Joined: Nov 2004 Chesterfield Posts: 678 Cammed Stripped VTS and Daily Driver VTS

    #29 17th March 2008, 19:55

    Top end is where you notice the difference. There is a massive difference between one without and one with cams. But you really do need to work the car keeping it over 5500rpm to feel full potential.
    
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=ptsAIuaudDI
    
    Thats mine from a steady cruise in 4th.
30. RedB Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2007 Haywards Heath Posts: 8445

    #30 17th March 2008, 20:04

    You really need to grab a lift in one to feel the difference mate...
    
    Do the conversion as you wont regret it...As long as the cams are properly setup, mapped and maintained you wont have any problems and they will run the same but with more power and better pull.
    
    Obviously results depend on the ECU and mapping
31. Colin Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2006 Banbury Posts: 4623 Saxo Rally Car Evo 6

    #31 17th March 2008, 20:12

    Mines the latter too Toad.
    
    TBH, I wasnt that impressed when I fitted my cams. Maybe thats just me though.
32. Mikey Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 Blackburn Posts: 12035 GTI/VTS/VXR/S-line

    #32 17th March 2008, 20:13

    colin...you expected a rocket mate...and you drive like one so...we just discount your opinion
33. Colin Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2006 Banbury Posts: 4623 Saxo Rally Car Evo 6

    #33 17th March 2008, 20:48

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mikey colin...you expected a rocket mate...and you drive like one so...we just discount your opinion

    
34. ryhornvtr Frequent Poster Joined: Sep 2005 norwich United Kingdom (England) Posts: 821 2003 posi VTS

    #34 17th March 2008, 21:56

    I think cams would really make a difference. Brings the power/weight ratio to similar of a ctr or 172/182, 0-100 in around 17 seconds.
    
    Ill have cams soon hopefully.
35. BoJay Regular Poster Joined: Apr 2007 warrington Posts: 376 Saxo VTS

    #35 17th March 2008, 22:52

    any1 no what the difference in top end between cammed and none cammed vts?
36. coolj522 Regular Poster Joined: Dec 2006 Ballymena, Northern Ireland Posts: 291 Saxo Vtr/S

    #36 17th March 2008, 23:17

    im running catcams 708's without a remap and they are fine for everyday use, little lumpy bt nothing thats not out of controll!!hoping to get some sort of ecu sorted shortly tho!!
37. Zephyr Infrequent Poster Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 102

    #37 18th March 2008, 00:19

    I´m going to put c2 challenge cams...they must be very good 10,48 and 280° it must be good for everyday and for trackday...what u think?
38. Paul_Collins Established Member Joined: Apr 2006 Bridgend, S. Wales Posts: 1092 MkII White VTS

    #38 18th March 2008, 00:26

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by coolj522 im running catcams 708's without a remap and they are fine for everyday use, little lumpy bt nothing thats not out of controll!!hoping to get some sort of ecu sorted shortly tho!!

    Jammy git!, mine was a utter bag of shite.
    
    If i stopped at traffic lights or anything it would overfuel and cut out.
    Drinks the fuel when its not mapped too!
39. Scottish_Gaz Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Aug 2007 Glasgow Posts: 2614 Saxo VTS!!!!!!!

    #39 18th March 2008, 00:29

    ufft, i can certainly see that diff people suffer more or less than each other without a remap, like some good, some not bad and ones like yours cutting out
40. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #40 18th March 2008, 12:29

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Paul_Collins Jammy git!, mine was a utter bag of shite. If i stopped at traffic lights or anything it would overfuel and cut out. Drinks the fuel when its not mapped too!

    It depends on the cam timing, not just the map. When my car came out from Chipwizards, the idle was pretty good. Since then, I've installed a gas flowed big valve head, and changed the cam timing to suit. More power, but the idle is shocking.
41. Pat_Vts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 North London Posts: 6170 Land Rover Discovery

    #41 18th March 2008, 13:00

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mikey colin...you expected a rocket mate...and you drive like one so...we just discount your opinion

    he is right to expect a rocket £500 quid on cams and a remap... should create a rocket for that money, i for one will be expecting a 30% increase in power when cams are fitted to the VTS engine when it is in my VTR which is VTR at the moment...
42. samcook Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2005 evesham, worcs United Kingdom (England) Posts: 3813 197 cup

    #42 18th March 2008, 13:21

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by vtrapid he is right to expect a rocket £500 quid on cams and a remap... should create a rocket for that money, i for one will be expecting a 30% increase in power when cams are fitted to the VTS engine when it is in my VTR which is VTR at the moment...

    thats peanuts in the world of engine tuning
43. Zephyr Infrequent Poster Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 102

    #43 18th March 2008, 13:37

    quote
44. Scottish_Gaz Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Aug 2007 Glasgow Posts: 2614 Saxo VTS!!!!!!!

    #44 18th March 2008, 16:20

    yes it is, im currently spending over a grand just so i cam get head done, cams, and fitted with all little bits like spark plus, ht leads and so on and on, and thats without a remap
45. andywiddss1 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Nov 2007 skipton northyorks Posts: 5275 clio 172 exclusive track toy

    #45 18th March 2008, 16:23

    if there fitting ht leads to ur vts u got a big problem mate
46. Scottish_Gaz Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Aug 2007 Glasgow Posts: 2614 Saxo VTS!!!!!!!

    #46 18th March 2008, 16:29

    they not fitting nothing, im going out to buy everything i need as soon as i get told what i need, just put that for an example, not sure exactly what ill be needing hence why im having it fitted by someone else and not my self
    
    Oh and i meant to put ignition leads
    
    And why would that be a problem?
47. GT3 Frequent Poster Joined: Nov 2004 Chesterfield Posts: 678 Cammed Stripped VTS and Daily Driver VTS

    #47 18th March 2008, 16:32

    There is no ignition leads on a vts. It is coil on spark.
48. Scottish_Gaz Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Aug 2007 Glasgow Posts: 2614 Saxo VTS!!!!!!!

    #48 18th March 2008, 16:37

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CITROEN-SAXO-V...QQcmdZViewItem
    
    oh right, well im sure ill be told that when im told what i need to buy to do the stuff!!! My opologise but i was just using that for example, im sure you all get what i mean but the amount of money ill be exspected to pay to have it all done and running decent
49. andywiddss1 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Nov 2007 skipton northyorks Posts: 5275 clio 172 exclusive track toy

    #49 18th March 2008, 16:40

    ok mate maybe i should have just said its a coil pack not leads
50. andywiddss1 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Nov 2007 skipton northyorks Posts: 5275 clio 172 exclusive track toy

    #50 18th March 2008, 16:42

    thats ebay for u ha ha
51. Scottish_Gaz Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Aug 2007 Glasgow Posts: 2614 Saxo VTS!!!!!!!

    #51 18th March 2008, 16:44

    cheers for info tho, learn something new everyday
52. andywiddss1 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Nov 2007 skipton northyorks Posts: 5275 clio 172 exclusive track toy

    #52 18th March 2008, 17:10

    gaz fella talk to a few people before u buy the bits u will get sum good advice on hear from people who have done the work u are having done an will tell u what to buy an from were at the right price mate
53. GT3 Frequent Poster Joined: Nov 2004 Chesterfield Posts: 678 Cammed Stripped VTS and Daily Driver VTS

    #53 18th March 2008, 17:19

    Early blacktop vtr's used HT leads but no vts has.
54. Scottish_Gaz Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Aug 2007 Glasgow Posts: 2614 Saxo VTS!!!!!!!

    #54 18th March 2008, 17:24

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by andywiddss1 gaz fella talk to a few people before u buy the bits u will get sum good advice on hear from people who have done the work u are having done an will tell u what to buy an from were at the right price mate

    ok mate i appreciate it, not going out to get stuff yet, i will when i get an exact date of when work being done as head and cams already sorted as ready to go on, just wait and ill prob be out on look next week or week after
55. 28gti Newbie Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 10

    #55 19th March 2008, 00:45

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Toad It depends on the cam timing, not just the map. When my car came out from Chipwizards, the idle was pretty good. Since then, I've installed a gas flowed big valve head, and changed the cam timing to suit. More power, but the idle is shocking.

    Well maybe that's why its running so bad!
    
    You can't just add to your spec when its been mapped and alter the cam timing to suit. Altering the cam timing by more than a small margin, requires a remap in itself and so does adding a big valve head really. Your map is probably a long way off the mark.
    
    As already said, any problems with driveability/idle on a cammed 16v is down to bad mapping.
56. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #56 19th March 2008, 12:35

    Not really mate. If I'm looking for perfection, then yes, the map should be tweaked after changing the head, as the bigger ports would more than likely cause it to run rich low down and lean at the top, but you're talking very small amounts. It's not been shy of rolling roads, so the fuelling has been checked fairly regularly and it's fine.
    
    The running issues I have at the moment are not related to this in anyway. My shit idle is though!
    
    EDIT: Forgot to mention, TBs a new management is going on soon, so I just need to stick with it through this bad spell and all will be history VERY shortly.
57. user_15854 Frequent Poster Joined: May 2007 Leicester Posts: 796 Corsa GSI C20LET

    #57 19th March 2008, 12:46

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by vtrapid http://youtube.com/watch?v=VGTJvgNQAKc is that a realistic cammed VTS or not, or is he going downhill? lol hmm

    also will he be going faster if he let the handbrake off? lol
58. samcook Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2005 evesham, worcs United Kingdom (England) Posts: 3813 197 cup

    #58 19th March 2008, 13:35

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Toad EDIT: Forgot to mention, TBs a new management is going on soon, so I just need to stick with it through this bad spell and all will be history VERY shortly.

    yeh hurry up and ditch that standard ecu!
59. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #59 19th March 2008, 13:56

    You running Omex Samsy? Did you previously have the stock ECU re-mapped?
60. samcook Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2005 evesham, worcs United Kingdom (England) Posts: 3813 197 cup

    #60 19th March 2008, 15:28

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Toad You running Omex Samsy? Did you previously have the stock ECU re-mapped?

    yup ive got omex and nope didnt touch the standard ecu
61. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #61 19th March 2008, 15:31

    And you had no issues with installing the Omex to your mk2? Remember all this malarky about losing coolant and oil temperature sensors... ? Tell me more dude.
62. samcook Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2005 evesham, worcs United Kingdom (England) Posts: 3813 197 cup

    #62 19th March 2008, 15:39

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Toad And you had no issues with installing the Omex to your mk2? Remember all this malarky about losing coolant and oil temperature sensors... ? Tell me more dude.

    i didnt install it des developments did, yeh all the dash dials and gauges work, only problem is the tempreture gauge has abit of a complex when it goes over a certain temp, ie when sat in traffic and it goes above half the gauge will cut out and drop to zero then when either the fans kicked in and cooled it back to below half or ive driven off and its fell below half the gauge will start working again, they said it was an issue with the software or summet, spoke to omex and they said i need to connect it to the computer and see if it does the same via the software on the computer, but havent got round to it yet
    
    hope that makes sense to you, the temp gauge is probably just a wiring issue i would imagine, but ill look into it soon enough
63. andywiddss1 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Nov 2007 skipton northyorks Posts: 5275 clio 172 exclusive track toy

    #63 19th March 2008, 15:42

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by VTSLeics84 also will he be going faster if he let the handbrake off? lol

    watched the vid i would its about right it looks like its running standard vts box took about 16 sec to 100 thats about right for a cammed vts
64. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #64 19th March 2008, 15:47

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by samcook i didnt install it des developments did, yeh all the dash dials and gauges work, only problem is the tempreture gauge has abit of a complex when it goes over a certain temp, ie when sat in traffic and it goes above half the gauge will cut out and drop to zero then when either the fans kicked in and cooled it back to below half or ive driven off and its fell below half the gauge will start working again, they said it was an issue with the software or summet, spoke to omex and they said i need to connect it to the computer and see if it does the same via the software on the computer, but havent got round to it yet hope that makes sense to you, the temp gauge is probably just a wiring issue i would imagine, but ill look into it soon enough

    Ah, good ol' DD did the biz then. Cool man, that makes sense.
65. Matty-VTR Frequent Poster Joined: Jan 2008 Cheltenham Posts: 920 Silver VTR & Gunmetal Grey VTR

    #65 19th March 2008, 21:03

    My coolant gauge and tacho meter no longer work after i fitted my ECU but hopefully its a wiring issue lol its not 100% done yet.
66. Raz Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jun 2007 Darlington Posts: 8766 Icelandic Grey Citroen Saxo VTS

    #66 19th March 2008, 23:25

    i think their would be a difference in accelaration with a cammed VTS to a non-cammed VTS...by how much i do no know....
67. Pat_Vts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 North London Posts: 6170 Land Rover Discovery

    #67 20th March 2008, 02:32

    thats the question RAZ... i want to know the difference... but its damn impossible unless i try it myself... which COSTS...
68. samcook Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2005 evesham, worcs United Kingdom (England) Posts: 3813 197 cup

    #68 20th March 2008, 09:29

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by vtrapid thats the question RAZ... i want to know the difference... but its damn impossible unless i try it myself... which COSTS...

    well ull never know if you dnt stop the talking and start doing
    
    well think about it 120bhp standard to your average cammed vts which is around 150bhp, 30bhp difference, thats the same as a mk1 vtr to a vts
69. Raz Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jun 2007 Darlington Posts: 8766 Icelandic Grey Citroen Saxo VTS

    #69 20th March 2008, 10:46

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by samcook well ull never know if you dnt stop the talking and start doing well think about it 120bhp standard to your average cammed vts which is around 150bhp, 30bhp difference, thats the same as a mk1 vtr to a vts

    thats what i was thinking...but never made sense in my head lol
70. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #70 20th March 2008, 12:13

    I guess I good way to describe it is simply this: When the stock VTS starts to lose power from being high in the rev range, this is where a VTS with 708s (for example) really opens up.