Breather problem

21st April 2008, 20:20

I wonder if anyone can help me. I want to know the purpose of this pipe ( solid red on diagram) My guess is that it is the breather for the rockercover when the throttle butterfly is closed as there is a depression in the inlet manifold it causes it to "suck".

Basically the problem im having is that my engine is drawing oil up this pipe and i dont know wether it is where i have had the lobes skimmed off the rocker covers has brought them too low and it is just syphening the oil out of the head or maybe i damaged or lost something when i took the splash plate off of the cover when i removed it to degrease all the metal shavings out, possibley like a 1 way valve or some type of baffel.

I thought i could block the pipe up and put the rocker cover end of it in to my catch tank also but when i blocked it up the car wouldnt idle correctly should this effect it? I have had the throttle body ported and polished by spencer cammed vts could this have effected the operation of it causing it to suck harder than it should?

The only other person i know that has skimmed there rockers also is willsy but he hasnt driven his car propperly yet i dont think so dont know if hes got the same problem.

21st April 2008, 20:56

Why the hell did you skim the covers?

If you have the splash plate/baffle fitted then hardly any oil should get through the small breather. And yes the small pipe is a part throttle breather and the large one is a WOT breather. I blocked the small one on my vts for ages and it idled fine, i didn't block it because excessive amounts of oil were going through it though, just because i wanted to properly monitor the blow by from the engine with my proper catch tank setup.

21st April 2008, 21:41

next to no oil will come out it anyway, just stick a wee breather filter on it.

21st April 2008, 21:50

It's only bout 5mm big aint it.

21st April 2008, 23:06

Cheers for confirming that alex, have a look here explains about the skimming...

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...=84693&page=57

yeh its only tiny. well the problem is that there is a lot of oil being drawn up it .... splash plate is fitted.

21st April 2008, 23:39

i would work out why so much oil is being drawn through it first, maybe the restrictor in it(2mm or so) is no longer? although that's not actually in the throttle body assembly, it's in the plenum. regardless it should still run fine with the pipe blocked. i put a screw into the restrictor to block it.

22nd April 2008, 00:33

How much oil is going through it? shouldnt be hardly any.

Ive only driven mine just over 50 miles so far, but to date ive had no problems

Does it happen straight away or just after a certain time period of your journey?

Did the skimming cure the cam cover sealing?

22nd April 2008, 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexR

Why the hell did you skim the covers?

If you have the splash plate/baffle fitted then hardly any oil should get through the small breather. And yes the small pipe is a part throttle breather and the large one is a WOT breather. I blocked the small one on my vts for ages and it idled fine, i didn't block it because excessive amounts of oil were going through it though, just because i wanted to properly monitor the blow by from the engine with my proper catch tank setup.

Yeah, I think that's right. The large breather actually draws air inwards during high manifold pressure, such as idling. So during this instance, I believe the smaller breather works the other way around. As Alex said, during WOT / low manifold pressure, the large breather will exit gasses.

22nd April 2008, 08:41

http://www.saxosportsclub.com/Forums...c/t=29091.html

May enlighten you.

And you don't need to skim the covers to get them to seal properly, you just need to make a deeper bead of sealant and place the cover on the head lightly once it's started to cure, then none of the metal of the cover will be touching the head and the sealant itself is making the seal which is how it's supposed to be.

22nd April 2008, 08:46

I just thought about it, on the head the oil supply comes up via small channels in the ladders which then lead to the small gap between the underside of the covers corners(this is why the cover has thicker metal under where the bolts go to ensure it is spaced at least a certain distance from the head) the small gap causes the oil to spread around the top sections of the cam ladders, there are obviously other oil supplys in the cam ladder but if you are blocking these it's either gonna cause higher oil pressure to the rest of the engine and/or cause the oil to spray all over the place.

Aharr?

22nd April 2008, 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexR

http://www.saxosportsclub.com/Forums...c/t=29091.html

you just need to make a deeper bead of sealant and place the cover on the head lightly once it's started to cure, then none of the metal of the cover will be touching the head and the sealant itself is making the seal which is how it's supposed to be.

First time round when sealing my covers i used 3 tubes of stuff to make up the gap, it did sod all to seal it and oil leaked everywhere all out the sides.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexR

I just thought about it, on the head the oil supply comes up via small channels in the ladders which then lead to the small gap between the underside of the covers corners(this is why the cover has thicker metal under where the bolts go to ensure it is spaced at least a certain distance from the head) the small gap causes the oil to spread around the top sections of the cam ladders, there are obviously other oil supplys in the cam ladder but if you are blocking these it's either gonna cause higher oil pressure to the rest of the engine and/or cause the oil to spray all over the place.

Aharr?

When enquiring about the thicker metal bits and their use at a number of places they all stated that they were simply there to prevent overtightening of the bolts which could cause the standard seal to split under the pressure.

With these raised bits skimmed off there is still more than enough room in and around the cam covers to allow oil to flow about freely and causes no restrictions of oil into the cam ladders.

Further more i only needed 1/3 of a tube of sealent then with no evidence so far of the leak appearing.

22nd April 2008, 14:18

Who did you ask about skimming the covers? I remember when i remade the seals on mine if i didn't leave enough time for the sealant to cure the oil pressure in the corners caused it to leak. Do you understand what i mean? look at teh front corners of the front cover, there is a fair bit of metal to the side of where the bolt goes, if you look under where this metal sits this is where some of the oil supply comes from, i can't draw a diagram as i'm at work. But skimming the covers will reduce the clearance to almost none.

take what you want from what i've said, i'm not bothered really

22nd April 2008, 16:05

get a little airfliter for the breather mate

22nd April 2008, 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexR

i would work out why so much oil is being drawn through it first, maybe the restrictor in it(2mm or so) is no longer? although that's not actually in the throttle body assembly, it's in the plenum. regardless it should still run fine with the pipe blocked. i put a screw into the restrictor to block it.

That is what i am trying to do!

Where is this restrictor? My idle dies down when i block the pipe like its relying on it to supply the engine with enough air on idle.

Could a seized icv cause this to happen maybe? So instead of it drawing air in past the icv its trying to take the easiest route which is through this breather? Or do you think spencercammedvts could have fucked something up porting the throttle bodie?

willsy... when i left for chipwizzards the otherday i left my house with the oil on the max mark and by the time i got 70 miles up the road it was below minimum this was sitting at 75 on the motorway.

It smokes and sounds like a turbo overboosting when going up hills only slightly on the throttle but soon as you put your food down it clears.

22nd April 2008, 17:15

I know droopster had troubles with his ported throttle body also on a mk1 VTS iirc.

22nd April 2008, 17:17

Im in agreement with Alex, the blocks surely are designed to be there for a reason.

There's no reason why you shouldnt be able to get it to Seal Matt, plenty of other people have, including myself with no leaking what so ever.

22nd April 2008, 17:22

Is possible to get it to seal with them obviousley but is so quick and easy without them.

I will be buying some more to try but still think the pipe is sucking rather hard as it effects the idle when i block it.

22nd April 2008, 18:39

It is definaley sucking through that pipe way too much.

When an ecu is remapped to suit different cams does this alter the parameters for the icv? Because i am sure the icv isnt opening enough on my car and this is causing it to take the easiest route throgh the breather then it is sucking all the air out of the rocker cover and then causing it draw the oil up.

I think the skimming of the rocker covers could have effected it also but could the main reason be the fact the cams are unmapped and require much more air to idle than standard and the icv cannot open up enough to allow the required amount of air through?

22nd April 2008, 19:00

Long duration high lift cams will require less air to idle than standard cams, usually you will induce less air at low rpms with steeper cams, and more air at higher rpms.

I would block the pipe and fiddle with the throttle stop slightly. but as i said mine ran fine with it blocked for over a year and i didn't adjust anything, maybe clean out the idle control valve and it's area.

The ported body shouldn't affect it as the breather is after the throttle body, unless of course the throttle stop is adjusted wrong? Have you tried a standard body to eliminate that?

22nd April 2008, 19:15

Looking at this, the oil channels can't get blocked, been so long since i played with a vts engine

But they can still get partly covered by the cam cover if you skim the shizniz.

22nd April 2008, 21:37

Cheers for the help mate. Icv has been removed and cleaned, all the sensors were removed for it to be ported. Yes perhaps the throttle stop was adjusted when the work was carried out because it seems to close fully so no air is drawn in there all from the icv port and that breather! Havnt been able to get hold of a standard one to try, i will have a look at my mates and see if the pipe seems to suck as much on his.

I see what you mean about those holes, im going to buy some standard cam covers also to try but theres definatley something going on with that breather.

Have a look at this vid. I block it 3 times once when the cam is pointing down the side of the car but the last time you can hear it most, is definatley relying on that to supply air to the engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0_7L1ngXI8

22nd April 2008, 22:09

strange. i'd eliminate things. this is the problem of fitting loads of parts at once, you should fit one thing at a time, then you know what is causing your problem without having to change it all back.

change throttle body, block pipe again. change cam cover, block pipe etc. I have a front cam cover if you want it? was polished, needs a quick once over, and a new bead of sealant

22nd April 2008, 22:15

yep very true that.

lol cheers umm well the rears more important to me and the moment near the inlet manifold so will need a pair really. bit of a bummer cos they look mint now n owe me £30

22nd April 2008, 23:42

All interesting points to pickup on. Just wish i could help out a little more with saying how mine is since skimming the covers.

Ive done 50 miles and 10 of that was in very heavy slow moving traffic with an idle way out at over 2k rpm so the engine was rather warm.

Had no reoccurance of leaks so far.

When asking about skimming the covers it was recommended to skim them by the place where i was fitting the engine as 2 attempts at sealing them with the sealant was having none of it. I then asked one of the local citroen mechanics (might not be the most reliable confirmation) and id asked a local pug/cit specialist.

I know the skimmed covers are potentially 1 of many issues here, but the engine shouldnt be physically sucking air through that breather and i cant see how the covers would cause it to happen or indeed for it to be so severe.

Id try it with a different TB first and ICV as theyre easier to bolt on and bolt off rather than mess about with the covers and sealant

23rd April 2008, 00:03

Yeh they shouldnt effect the breathing problem, think that mainly whats causing the oil to be drawn up rather than the rockers being skimmed.

You not had anyluck with your kms yet mate?

I am hoping to buy a 2nd hand one off some one local to me. What exactly do i need to get it up and running? Can i literally plug it in to the standard wiring download a basic map on to my laptop plug my laptop in then load it on to the kms and it should fire up and run well enough to go get it all set up correctly?

23rd April 2008, 16:39

Just tried adjusting the tb and the smallest female torx i have got is a 1/4" drive E4 which seems to big, what size do i need?

Just removed the throttle bodie and sprayed brake cleaner in it and it didnt seap past the butterfly so that is definatley fully closed on the stop.

23rd April 2008, 19:05

I can't remember think it's E6, i had to mod it to get it to fit in the hole cos the outside diameter of the end was a bit big, it did go in though but i was worried about stripping the head on the bolt. in the end we drilled the fucker out and fitted a larger threaded hex head bolt so it could be easily adjusted, that was with kms.

23rd April 2008, 19:08

hmm ok dont fancy grinding down a snap on socket lol will see that i can do.