Supercharged VTR or Cam'd VTS

  1. Regular Poster Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 388
    #1
    Right, I have a 2001 VTR, i am wanting to buy another engine soon to build up over time to a blast proof spec and to run some good power. I fully understand all costs of what im asking, just wanted to know some opinions of whats best for driveability and at the end of the day, what will be quick enough to annoy some people in expensive cars who are not expecting a very quick little saxo;
    Going to buy either another VTR engine or a VTS engine.
    Supercharge the VTR and build it from the bottom up with the best of everything to run about 200bhp or;
    Build up the VTS engine like new with some good cams, stand alone management maybe, bigger injectors etc.
    Either way, i want the car to be reliable, fun and strong.

    What will be quick enough and what kind of performance figures am i looking at?
    Particularly interested to know 0-60 in camd vts' and what kind of cars they tend to keep up with?
  2. Frequent Poster Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 682
    #2
    VTS engine all the way
  3. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2003 United Kingdom (England) Posts: 7064
    #3
    What's your budget?
    And current spec of your car?
  4. Regular Poster Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 388
    #4
    i dont really have a budget, this will be done over the next year or so. anywhere to over 6 or so thousand. My car at the min has Speedline chrono's wilwood 4 pots and soon will be lowered on eibach and bilstein's.
  5. Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R
    #5
    I'd go with a supercharged vts !! As the costs of superchargin a vtr or a vts are surely going to very similar!! So the only expense is the extra cost of buying a vts engine over a vtr engine - and then you're already 20bhp ahead (can't remember the ft lb)

    You could begin with a 1.6 16v from a c2/206 etc. which has bigger inlet valves as standard - the only downside is you'd need to drill and tap on a vts inlet + play around with. Or go all out with a vts engine and go for around 250bhp atw!!
  6. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 dudley United Kingdom (England) Posts: 6790 106 gti/ SEAT LCR
    #6
    250bhp atw is not that hard to obtain these days, so long as you choose the right modifications and get good advice (vts engine).

    when using a good spec'd s/c engine you will more than likely have to "resrict" the power as the gearbox is a weak link.
  7. Regular Poster Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 388
    #7
    If i went with a cam'd vts engine, what kind of performance figures should i expect?
    What would i keep up with?
    And also i have just thought, i have an alarm in my car, would this have to be taken out when changing the engine as its wired into allsorts or is it just a case of dropping the engine in, plugging in the sensors??
  8. Regular Poster Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 388
    #8
    bump...
  9. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Nov 2007 skipton northyorks Posts: 5275 clio 172 exclusive track toy
    #9
    im cammed vts
  10. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Aug 2007 Coventry Posts: 5182 Lupo GTI
    #10
    Might well be worth considering putting a bigger engine the car, such as the gti-6, mi16, s16 or gti180. But then you need to think about the handling.

    You could get one of these in your car for around a grand, then you can fettle with it to get one hell of a machine, which will also be reliable.

    A lad on the 205 forum supercharged a gti-6 in a 205. It had 290bhp @ wheels. 0 to 60 came up in 4.2!

    But a supercharged VTR would still be awesome!

    For 6k you could even get a Z cars conversion, with a 300bhp hayabusa in the back or an s2000 lump in it. Think they are around that price iirc.
  11. Regular Poster Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 388
    #11
    at the end of the day i want something fast but reliable, really dont know what to do, i change my mind every few minutes. i could;
    Stick with the vtr and cam it
    Supercharge the vtr
    Cam'd vts
    really dont know
    Can a cam'd vts really do 0-60 in 5.9 seconds?
    What box is that using?
  12. Frequent Poster Joined: Nov 2003 Tayside Posts: 893 S/c VT!?
    #12
    I was stuck with a similar query about 3 years ago.

    You state reliable and strong as two main things you're after. Now obviously if you spend enough - you'll manage to get that with boost as well, but a high-ish spec N/A VTS is likely to be more reliable and stronger. But as i said - depends how much you spend.

    I went for s/c VTR as although it probably cost slightly more to get to 180ish bhp than a decent N/A spec VTS - to get more power up to 220bhp will cost less than an n/a spec vts. And if i want more - then JP4 engine for £600. With the s/c - you've definatly got a bigger scope for more power at a later date. N/a you can only go so far really.
  13. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Nov 2007 skipton northyorks Posts: 5275 clio 172 exclusive track toy
    #13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Alex_3589 View Post
    at the end of the day i want something fast but reliable, really dont know what to do, i change my mind every few minutes. i could;
    Stick with the vtr and cam it
    Supercharge the vtr
    Cam'd vts
    really dont know
    Can a cam'd vts really do 0-60 in 5.9 seconds?
    What box is that using?

    yes mate it can i was on 14inch wheels an vts gearbox

    an the car was well stripped out
  14. Regular Poster Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 388
    #14
    cheers mate, what kind of performance figures do you get with the VTR?
    i think its the way i want to go most of all, but i want to do EVERYTHING perfect, forged internals etc.
    I want to d*ck allover my friends focus rs lol.
  15. Established Member Joined: Dec 2007 Southampton Posts: 2278
    #15
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Alex_3589 View Post
    cheers mate, what kind of performance figures do you get with the VTR?
    i think its the way i want to go most of all, but i want to do EVERYTHING perfect, forged internals etc.
    I want to d*ck allover my friends focus rs lol.
    I hope your rich lol
  16. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Nov 2007 skipton northyorks Posts: 5275 clio 172 exclusive track toy
    #16
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Alex_3589 View Post
    cheers mate, what kind of performance figures do you get with the VTR?
    i think its the way i want to go most of all, but i want to do EVERYTHING perfect, forged internals etc.
    I want to d*ck allover my friends focus rs lol.

    a good vts will kill an rs focus mate
  17. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 dudley United Kingdom (England) Posts: 6790 106 gti/ SEAT LCR
    #17
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Alex_3589 View Post
    cheers mate, what kind of performance figures do you get with the VTR?
    i think its the way i want to go most of all, but i want to do EVERYTHING perfect, forged internals etc.
    I want to d*ck allover my friends focus rs lol.
    boost is the best way to do it then as they are very quick cars.

    with forged pistons and rods and good management, a c30/84 charger, 206 xsi head, good intercooler, boost spec cams and all the other niggly bits you will be looking at around 250bhp atw+ then its going to yake a seriously modified focus rs to even keep up.
  18. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Aug 2007 Coventry Posts: 5182 Lupo GTI
    #18
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dannygti View Post
    boost is the best way to do it then as they are very quick cars.

    with forged pistons and rods and good management, a c30/84 charger, 206 xsi head, good intercooler, boost spec cams and all the other niggly bits you will be looking at around 250bhp atw+ then its going to yake a seriously modified focus rs to even keep up.
    Focus is 4wd though, so it will put its power down properly and will also go round corners with the power on.

    I doubt the saxo will tbh...
  19. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 dudley United Kingdom (England) Posts: 6790 106 gti/ SEAT LCR
    #19
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Coonper View Post
    Focus is 4wd though, so it will put its power down properly and will also go round corners with the power on.

    I doubt the saxo will tbh...
    focus rs is fwd so it has the same problems as the saxo.the focus does have a quaife active torque biasing differential though.
  20. Frequent Poster Joined: Nov 2003 Tayside Posts: 893 S/c VT!?
    #20
    Quote:
    cheers mate, what kind of performance figures do you get with the VTR?
    Never really done any timing or comparisons. Don't want to stress the transmission with standing starts.

    I've had someone out in the car who reckons its as quick as a Focus ST, but i've very rarely had a chance to play with anything on the road - and i try to leave it for the track. Its can pull on a EP Type R, and a 205 MI16 in a straight line.
  21. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Aug 2007 Coventry Posts: 5182 Lupo GTI
    #21
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dannygti View Post
    focus rs is fwd so it has the same problems as the saxo.the focus does have a quaife active torque biasing differential though.
    Oh right, i just assumed it was 4wd. But still, its gonna handle better than a saxo. And with a quaife diff its bound to put its power down better than a saxo.

    I like focus rs's!
  22. Regular Poster Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 388
    #22
    my mate with the focus rs runs 275bhp and someone was catching him in a cam'd vts.
    so i think a charged vtr will keep up well.
    I want to run suitable power but keep it safe, forged internals and might do something with the gear box and diff.
  23. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 dudley United Kingdom (England) Posts: 6790 106 gti/ SEAT LCR
    #23
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Alex_3589 View Post
    my mate with the focus rs runs 275bhp and someone was catching him in a cam'd vts.
    so i think a charged vtr will keep up well.
    I want to run suitable power but keep it safe, forged internals and might do something with the gear box and diff.
    i say a quaife diff is very important when going for bigger power, more important than power infact...what good is power when you cant use it?

    also invest in some sticky tyres, toyo r888 or yoko a048's
  24. Established Member Joined: Oct 2007 Shoreham By Sea near Brighton Posts: 2065 saxo vt*
    #24
    might aswel get the vts lump in there as you dont have a budget, as you can then start to look at getting new cams for that, supercharging etc which will then produce more gains then doing the same on the R engine
  25. Regular Poster Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 388
    #25
    i think id be happy with around 200bhp and a good way of putting the power down.
    with that kind of power, what kind of cars do you think i will keep up with?
  26. Regular Poster Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 388
    #26
    Chris from manic motors advised me against the turbo route;
    he said even with forged internals, the engines cant take the extra stress and said a supercharger would be a lot better.
    Is this the case?
    If i had forged internals, could i have a reliable and safe turbo engine?
  27. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2005 evesham, worcs United Kingdom (England) Posts: 3813 197 cup
    #27
    ive got a cammed vts and at the weekend at the ring i over took a fair few cars a couple where 172 cup, leon cupra R, 182, honda s2000 and kept up with a german guy in a porsche cayman s who came up to me in the car park after and asked wot was in my car and i was like just just a 1600 and he couldnt believe me coz i was sticking with him, haha
  28. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Nov 2007 skipton northyorks Posts: 5275 clio 172 exclusive track toy
    #28
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Alex_3589 View Post
    i think id be happy with around 200bhp and a good way of putting the power down.
    with that kind of power, what kind of cars do you think i will keep up with?

    u ever driven anything with owt like 200 bhp before mate an fwd
  29. Regular Poster Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 388
    #29
    nope, should be a bit fun though
  30. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 North London Posts: 6170 Land Rover Discovery
    #30
    cammed VTS i would say is easier than supercharged VTR
  31. Established Member Joined: Dec 2007 Southampton Posts: 2278
    #31
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Alex_3589 View Post
    Chris from manic motors advised me against the turbo route;
    he said even with forged internals, the engines cant take the extra stress and said a supercharger would be a lot better.
    Is this the case?
    If i had forged internals, could i have a reliable and safe turbo engine?
    The engine is under just as much stress with an SC as a turbo flowing the same ammount of air.
  32. Frequent Poster Joined: Jan 2008 T Wells/Kent Posts: 918 Clio 1.2 Grande, Saxo 1.6 VTS
    #32
    definately get a turbo conversion, remapped and run over 200bhp
  33. Established Member Joined: Dec 2007 Southampton Posts: 2278
    #33
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RCD-Performance View Post
    The engine is under just as much stress with an SC as a turbo flowing the same ammount of air.
    Sorry to answer your other question, yes you could, as long as you dont go silly with the boost.
  34. Regular Poster Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 388
    #34
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RCD-Performance View Post
    Sorry to answer your other question, yes you could, as long as you dont go silly with the boost.
    thanks for the replies, more heat as the air is coming straight from exhaust gases with the turbo.
    i would prefer the turbo route, i just want the most reliable. il keep reading up on it, any info would be appreciated
  35. Frequent Poster Joined: Nov 2003 Tayside Posts: 893 S/c VT!?
    #35
    Quote:
    The engine is under just as much stress with an SC as a turbo flowing the same ammount of air.
    The engine itself may be under the same amount of stress - but the rest of the transmission will be under more stress with a turbo due to the power delivery and the sharp increase in torque when the turbo kicks in compared to the relativly straight line of torque from a s/c.

    Quote:
    If i had forged internals, could i have a reliable and safe turbo engine?
    As long as it is set up correctly - yes. If corners are cut, or the mapping isn't correct - then expect problems.

    Quote:
    more heat as the air is coming straight from exhaust gases with the turbo.
    Not exactly - the turbo is spun by the exhaust gases, which heat the turbo up. The air that is pulled in is not from the exhaust gases, but as it passes through the turbo it heats up from the heat of the turbo.

    However - as long as everything is specced properly (big intercooler, no restrictions etc) - you shouldn't have any inlet temp problems. I can go 20/30 seconds full throttle and the inlet temps barely move.
  36. Regular Poster Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 388
    #36
    what kinds of problems can you get from mapping issues?
    is it just a case of getting the air and fuel mixture right?
  37. Frequent Poster Joined: Nov 2003 Tayside Posts: 893 S/c VT!?
    #37
    Considering the mapping will completly control the engine - you name it.

    Too rich = bore wash over time leading to engine damage
    Too lean = more heat, leading to damage over time
    Ignition timings wrong = loss of power or extra heat
    Start up map incorrect = complete pain in the arse to start the car
    Idle map wrong = won't idle resulting in stalling everywhere.
    Temp correction incorrect = again, too much/little fuel, ignition timing problems.
  38. Regular Poster Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 388
    #38
    do you think it would be better to try map the standard ecu and use MF2 etc for fuelling or go standalone?
    Dont know what kind of standalone there is for the VTR, i would want something that is plug and play really, any ideas?
  39. Regular Poster Joined: Dec 2007 LEEDS / BLACKBURN Posts: 307 Ford Escort mk6 1.4 HCS Ford Fiesta MK3 Classic 1
    #39
    supercharge a vtr
    trust me v8 dragsters have 2 valves per cylinder so get it done
    a mini bmx charger without intercooler and rca's new ecu = funnnnn

    mines gettin the same treatment
  40. Frequent Poster Joined: Nov 2003 Tayside Posts: 893 S/c VT!?
    #40
    Quote:
    do you think it would be better to try map the standard ecu and use MF2 etc for fuelling or go standalone?
    MF2/ SigCon does not allow you to change the ignition timings. So while it works fine, its far from ideal.
    Never heard of anyone mapping the standard ECU for boost.

    No standalone at all will be entirely plug and play. If you're lucky, then you may be able to get a plug and play loom adaptor, and a base map. But you'll still need to get it mapped for your car to get the best from it.
  41. Infrequent Poster Joined: May 2008 lanark Posts: 128 97 vts
    #41
    why wouldnt you want it intercooled? colder air is denser air = bigger bang.

    you wont need to run high boost to get higher power.

    plus if u cool it all properly your less likely to melt a piston or have det issues etc.
  42. Infrequent Poster Joined: May 2008 lanark Posts: 128 97 vts
    #42
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gd16 View Post
    MF2/ SigCon does not allow you to change the ignition timings. So while it works fine, its far from ideal.
    Never heard of anyone mapping the standard ECU for boost.

    No standalone at all will be entirely plug and play. If you're lucky, then you may be able to get a plug and play loom adaptor, and a base map. But you'll still need to get it mapped for your car to get the best from it.
    DTA or megasquirt FTW

    either can be fitted but will have to be mapped.

    i very much doubt the standard ecu would cope with turbo-ing.

    you would need map sensor line etc..... very complicated stuff lol