For those considering a new Engine Management System

19th May 2008, 23:41

Ive been asked to post up some details regarding an Engine Management System which is currently being developed for (initially) the Saxo VTS (1 and 3 plug) and 106 GTI

The Engine Management System in question is the Hydra EMS which is widely reknowned within much of the Jap market aswel as a few others such as Volkswagon and Lotus.

As some of you may know ive had a mammoth ball ache trying to get an aftermarket ECU to work and actually do the job its intended on doing:

Options were tried and discussed including the widely considered KMS and Omex systems.

After talking to a few companies and discussing the potential market to develop the Hydra EMS this is now in production and it will be available very shortly.

There are a few massive advantages to this EMS which immediately stand out over the KMS and Omex models and this is that the ECU is made specifically for the car which is bought for.

Although the KMS and Omex systems themselves are fairly cheaply priced there is often all sorts of 'hidden extras' which add up such as Adaptor looms, splicing of existing looms which of course takes up a good few hours labour etc etc.

The Hydra has none of these hidden extras and is literally as plug in and play as the standard ECU is to your existing engine loom thus keeping extra costs away.

For those of you who do have the technical knowledge the following is taken directly from some info that they've sent me:

Hydra Engine Management Systems

Uses the latest Nemesis software to provide the advanced levels of control demanded by modern day competition and road car applications in a single affordable package.

With multiple features available in the basic unit, the Hydra ECU offers unrivalled control solutions for multiple applications

Technical Data

- Upto 8 cylinder sequential injection
- 8x high current injector drivers (peak/hold/saturated)
- Hi/Lo injection (upto 4 cylinders)
- 8x ignition drivers
- 32x32 fuel and ignition maps with user-selectable axis
- Individual cylinder trims
- Variable camshaft timing
- drive-by-wire throttle
- Closed loop knock control from the standard OE sensor
- Dual closed loop narrow band lambda control
- Full closed loop wide band lambda control and auto tune facility
- Internal calibration for many different OEM sensors and trigger configurations
- user definable injector phasing
- user definable engine/air and barometric compensations
- backup ignition table for engine safety/limp home mode
- Auxiliary 32x32 fuel map switchable for different fuel/NOS etc
- Auxiliary 32x32 ignition map switchable for different fuel/NOS etc
- Turbo antilag maps (switchable) for fuel and ignition
- 2 stage Launch control
- Internal 3 bar MAP sensor (5 bar sensor optional)
- Dedicated sensor inputs for throttle position, engine and air temperature
- 6 x user selectable inputs
- 16 PWM user definable auxiliary outputs which can be used for the following functions:

Boost control
Idle control (PWM or stepper motor)
user definable controls using tables (3x3 dimentional/8x2 dimentionable)
Fuel Pump
tacho
Cooling Fans
AC Control
Purge system
Shift light
Engine check light
Ausomatic transmission control
Torque converter clutch
Turbo timer
EGR Valves
Power steering
Intercooler water sprays

Password protection for intellectual property
Soft cut rev limit
Boost Limit

The above is everything thats listed in the brochure that ive been given.

There is a website to readup more about it which is www.hydraems.com

or you can contact Graham Poultney at Xspec Motorsport:

PM me if you'd like a contact number alternatively email:

graham@xspec.co.uk

20th May 2008, 01:13

Any idea on a rough price of these? And You did say VTS but will they work with lower model engines?

20th May 2008, 01:19

i dont get why you have had problems finding a suitable management?

20th May 2008, 08:45

"There are a few massive advantages to this EMS which immediately stand out over the KMS and Omex models and this is that the ECU is made specifically for the car which is bought for."

yeah cos the saxo engine has 8 cylinders and needs boost control as standard.

tbh mate, just looks like another standalone system, it will only work if the mapper is comfortable with it

20th May 2008, 08:50

Pricewise im unsure of a final figure yet (Best to give Graham at Xspec a call to get more of an idea) it'll be cheaper than the likes of KMS and Omex though purely due to the fact there is no need for any adaptor looms or cutting of existing looms and therefore there is no need for any labour charges either.

Williams:

The KMS i bought and tried, and although yes for some people it may work well i believe it to be mis-sold for the following reasons:

Ordered it from GMC- asked for everything needed to get it to work, gave him full spec of the car
All in it cost over £1,000 by the time ive bought the ECU, wideband, adaptor loom etc
Plugged it in and it idled at 2250rpm- found out that theres no signal going to the stepper motor so no adjustment can be made to get it down to around 1000 rpm or lower
Called GMC- it doesnt have the facility to work with a standard stepper motor, you have to buy an extra valve for £140 which you need to DRILL into inlet manifold to insert it and this MAY help (doesnt guarantee helping)
Now bearing in mind i thought my stepper motor was dodgy and had bought a new one for £100 he tells me to manually pull the stepper motor valve out until it idles ok and then glue it into place

Now to me this sounds absolutely appauling for a whole lot of kit thats certainly not cheap for it now to just plug in and work.

Therefore after mentioning this to various people they also confirmed that unless you're running throttle bodies (no stepper motor needed then) or some kind of forced induction then the KMS is absolutely useless and not fit for an engine thats cammed with breating mods.

The Omex was next up, and again with the ECU itself costing about £500 which seems reasonable and does get good results theres a tremendous amount of cutting of looms etc and messing about to get it right so labour charges getting this fitted with added looms etc rocketed the price over £1000 again quoted from 2/3 places.

After all this Graham at Xspec spoke to a bloke called Richard Bulmer at a company called Tracktive Solutions who are the Executive European Distributers of the Hydra EMS and asked him about producing these and break into the French market aswel as the Jap market.

As a result the Hydra EMS is being developed and mine will be the first produced and should be complete before the French Car Show next month.

Richard Bulmer is also doing the mapping of my car so the results should be pretty healthy

This link gives a little more insight about the company
http://www.tracktive.co.uk/downloads/ProfilePg2.pdf

20th May 2008, 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjm300

"There are a few massive advantages to this EMS which immediately stand out over the KMS and Omex models and this is that the ECU is made specifically for the car which is bought for."

yeah cos the saxo engine has 8 cylinders and needs boost control as standard.

tbh mate, just looks like another standalone system, it will only work if the mapper is comfortable with it

That is the full spec list as it stands and covers all the cars which it is available to, which at this time does include far more high powered cars.

For a more indepth idea on the functions and spec specific to the Saxo its best to give them a call.

The company producing it is the Executive European Distributer for the Hydra EMS and the bloke mapping it is called Richard Bulmer who has a pretty impressive CV having worked as a Technician for the Toyota WRC Team

20th May 2008, 08:54

KMS worked perfectly on mine after carworx told me to pull the valve out.

idled fine after it was set up and mapped, like all standalone systems

20th May 2008, 08:56

A little more info on this link:

http://www.racetechmag.com/news/indu...?id=110&menu=3

An extract taken from the link:

Engine guru launches new venture

EX-WRC stalwart and renowned ECU mapper Richard Bulmer has launched a new company, Tracktive Solutions, and revealed plans for a research, development and retail facility in the East Midlands.
Bulmer earned his stripes as Didier Auriol's WRC technician, as well as running Alister McRae. He hopes to draw on his wealth of experience from management at Oselli and MoTeC and time in Formula One to provide a unique service for professional teams, manufacturers and road car customers.

20th May 2008, 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjm300

KMS worked perfectly on mine after carworx told me to pull the valve out.

idled fine after it was set up and mapped, like all standalone systems

Thats because you have Throttle Bodies which dont use a stepper motor.

Hence why the KMS isnt suitable for cars running a lower Spec i.e cams and breating mods which still use and rely upon the stepper motor.

From asking around there is nowhere which has said that the KMS and Omex systems aren't very limited when compared to the Hydra.

For a company like that and a person of his experience he wouldnt be bothering to begin producing it if they didnt think they'd smash the current market available to us.

20th May 2008, 09:06

lol i ran my car on standard throttle body and 708's for a while before going throttle bodies, hence why i said about the valve.

im really not slating this, i just cant see it being any cheaper, the website is quoting $1500 for some jap models, which when combined with import taxes, VAT, shipping etc, will be more expensive than KMS, and you still need to buy the lambda sensor if you want to use the wideband control.

as i said previously, the best way to do this is to choose your mapper, then choose your standalone on what they are comfortable using.

20th May 2008, 09:13

I think this can only be a good thing. More competitive options out there means more competitive prices. Yes you are right about the kms, the idle control is a problem with them i feel, and if this is basically plug and play like the vems solution by dp engineering and a better price than kms, i dont see why it wouldnt be a good idea for that company.

20th May 2008, 09:17

im being a sceptic here, i dont see it being cheaper than the KMS, but thats me

20th May 2008, 09:21

You could be right, soon enough we'll see for sure if this is coming out soon. Even the vems pnp is close enough to the price of the old kms. But if kms keep going the way they are with the new model and prices i'm sure it could be cheaper.

20th May 2008, 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjm300

lol i ran my car on standard throttle body and 708's for a while before going throttle bodies, hence why i said about the valve.

im really not slating this, i just cant see it being any cheaper, the website is quoting $1500 for some jap models, which when combined with import taxes, VAT, shipping etc, will be more expensive than KMS, and you still need to buy the lambda sensor if you want to use the wideband control.

as i said previously, the best way to do this is to choose your mapper, then choose your standalone on what they are comfortable using.

There are no import taxes or shipping costs as they are the distributer of it and based in Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire

They've already guaranteed that the price will be much less than itll cost for KMS and Omex's total costs and can literally be plugged in by the buyer (take old ecu off, plug new one in and that is it, no other bits to plug in, no connections to play with.

Theyve guaranteed that itll just plug in and it will work without any hassle.

For the price of the KMS it really should be much better and for a reputable company like GMC to tell me to buy yet another bit which MAY work and requires drilling into my inlet manifold, then to put a blob of glue on my stepper motor is ridiculous

Total cost of the KMS from GMC was £1100 which didnt include that extra part which was around £140. The general ECU bits are easy to connect up for someone with a bit of knowledge but for Joe Public the costs to connect it in etc would send the total price to around £1400 easily. Considering the ECU unit itself is just about £500 its a big hike

20th May 2008, 09:23

the thing is, the adapter loom is the cheaper way of doing things. if the ECU itself is generic, with an adapter loom to make it model specific, its always going to be cheaper than having an ECU for each model kept on the shelf.

its either going to be more expensive, or have a longer lead time...

edit: just read your post, would be good if thats the case - lets hope more mappers start using this if what they say is true

20th May 2008, 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

I think this can only be a good thing. More competitive options out there means more competitive prices. Yes you are right about the kms, the idle control is a problem with them i feel, and if this is basically plug and play like the vems solution by dp engineering and a better price than kms, i dont see why it wouldnt be a good idea for that company.

Very true, for prices to be bought down due to extra competition thats always a bonus too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjm300

im being a sceptic here, i dont see it being cheaper than the KMS, but thats me

Its ok, theres always going to be a bit of scepticalness (new word ftw) as with any newly developed product, but given the reputation of the people and companies involved it would be too much of a gamble to make if they werent 100% certain they can break the mould and produce something that aims to dominate a sizeable chunk of the Euro market

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

You could be right, soon enough we'll see for sure if this is coming out soon. Even the vems pnp is close enough to the price of the old kms. But if kms keep going the way they are with the new model and prices i'm sure it could be cheaper.

Mine will be done and mapped in time for FCS next month, ill ask them for more information to take along on the day aswel and also have a bigger idea on prices.

Initially itll be available for the 1plug and 3 plug vts and of course the 106 gti.

If the potential is there is will be made more widely available for other vehicles

20th May 2008, 10:59

The idle issues with controlling a stepper motor with an after market ECU are a complete knightmare. Even the factory standard ECU cannot properly do it, arguably the largest issue with Saxo's are idle issues and problems.

The issue is surrounding the IAC motor. It's a stepper motor, and frankly it never seems to do the same thing twice. One day it'll be fine, and the next it will over-rev or stall often.

(This is PURELY guesswork) - I bet KMS are offering the solution to drill into the intake manifold a PWM Solenoid Idle controller. This is an *extremely* fast-acting valve which pulses open and closed allowing idle air through into the intake bypassing the throttle butterfly. The theory goes that you'd fully close the IAC motor and unplug the cable going to it, ensuring no extra air was getting in that way, set the throttle butterfly accordingly and use PWM idle.

I have to notice too that whilst the Hydra is mega-packed with features, that virtually none of them are needed or useable on the Saxo. It's bank-fire injection, wasted spark ignition, and only has a crank-VR sensor so has no knowledge where the Cam is, so converting to sequential is impossible. It's about as simple as it can be.

One of the reasons existing ECU solutions are expensive is because they are feature packed and rather than producing a cut-down version for smaller cars they use the full-spec ECU and a loom, and give you a bunch of redundant features which one-way or another you're paying for and never going to utilise.

Good luck Hydra - I like the Jap ECU's they do a lot, even if they are very top-end, they always have excellent write-ups!

Andy
RCD Performance

20th May 2008, 14:05

Sounds good to me, theres nothing worse than buying something and then having to faff around getting it to fit and even then it being abit of a bodge! Another bonus is it being cheaper. Also good that there premises is in melton mowbray just down the road from me