suspension guide wrong??

  1. #1
    I was looking about and came across some pics of saxo competition cars.
    every one on here including the stickies section says dont go lower than 40mm for handleing but these pics show the cars way lower than that and I think these guys must know a fair bit about how cars handle so are they wrong? Also I have read on here that you shouldn't lower saxo's more at the back than the front but a few pics shows just that.
    anyone know why these cars are set up like this??

    post #72

    http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...on+saxo&page=4
  2. #2
    theres a lot of difference between a road car and a full on track car.

    for road car approx 40mm is the best to avoid bottoming out and to stop it skipping all over the place when you get a load of bumps.

    tracks hardly ever have any large bumps and can therefore afford to have less travel in the suspension

    its the same with the spring stiffness, for road you need fairly soft springs, but for track you want it as stiff as possible (ooh err)
  3. #3
    Too low at the back will make the rear very jittery on track and cause a fair bit of understeer.
  4. #4
    Plus the race cars could be using adjustable everything on the front to take the height, and the rear may be converted to run struts.

    Without knowing the full spec, its hard to know why they are lower.
  5. #5
    the honest truth is that the lower the car, the lower the centre of gravity is and hence the handling will be better. However, as pointed out, most of our cars spend time on the road also so we cant have the lowest and stiffest set up. Also its not just a case of whacking on some low springs and lowering the back to match, full on race cars can swallow thousands on suspension alone.

    The best set up up is down to what you need your car to do. For me, using the car for weekend competition and communting 2 days a week i can live with it stiff so went for bilstein group N set and polybushed all round, with a big fat rear anti roll bar. Mine will have the back out no problems in the wet but its set up to do that.

    For some that will be too stiff so they may plump for something more of a compromise.

    Some just want looks so will drop it as far as they car and not worry about the handling.

    All comes down to what you want out of the car.

    PS.. mines 15mm higher at the back than the front.
  6. #6
    Here we go again...

    I can't really be bothered to go into detail really tonight, it's late.

    Ok, so what is handling?

    It's the car's capability to carry out a variety of tasks.

    To assess a cars handling you need to look at what it is required to do.

    for instance road cars are going to have to deal with pot holes, bumps etc, and will have a great compromise made for comfort. you can have hard low suspension that can cope with the bumps and keep good grip, but then it's too oncomfy for 99.9% of people.

    If a road car can't handle taking bumps, jumps, potholes, ridges etc at a reasonable speed without jumping about all over the road, losing grip due to bottoming out, taking off, bouncing you into a hedge, then it doesn't handle very well does it.

    It might GRIP well on a smooth surface but that's not much use, you should see some of the roads around here. Grip is a totally different thing to handling, it's just the amount of G force that a car can create during a cornering exercise. A car can corner faster or slower with the same amount of grip, depending on how it uses that grip, what the handling balance is for instance

    Then that's just talking about the ride height in terms of travel. What about talking about how the ride height affects the cars suspension geometry. from the factory it's set up so that it is optimum for road driving. the idea is that under cornering the geometry changes to try and keep optimum contact between the tyres and the road(camber caused by compression/extension depending on which side it is) and then there's caster & toe as well. when you lower the car, the geometry at ride height will have changed, the lower you go the further from "normal" it goes. This will affect not only cornering ability but straight line stability and tyre wear. People think more negative camber is good. Why is it good? If you have the suspension setup correctly, the inside tyre in a corner will have positive camber, this will keep more of the contact patch on the road, and the outside will gain some negative camber, as the car is rolling. The suspension gains this when the car rolls, from standard geometry. if you start with lots of negative at ride height, you will end up with lots of negative on the outside tyre, which is good, but you'll still have negative on the inside, which will lose you grip ultimately, the more grip you can get from each individual tyre the better. If there was no body roll there would be no need for camber.

    Centre of gravity? It's pretty damn low in a saxo anyway, and it's not the be all and end all of handling & grip. Given the lower the centre of gravity the less weight transfer one will get, hence less roll, but then lowering a car where the roll centres move differently front and rear will move them, say the rear roll centre stays the same if you lower a saxo, and the front drops, until the wishbones are level, then when the wishbones start to point upwards it won't go down anywhere near as fast. You are messing with the handling balance of the car by altering one roll centre but not the other.
    You want the wishbones to be totally parallel to the road at ride height ultimately.

    Then there's steering arm angles & arc,s which are affected when lowering or raising the car. Ideally you want the steering arms to be parallel to the ground when at ride height.

    I'm getting really bored now...

    Anyway, look at the real rally cars, they are using totally different steering racks, they use fully adjustable wishbones, they use uprated torsion bars and anti roll bars, they use fully adjustable alloy top mounts to tweek the front end geometry. And they don't sit slammed on the floor, they have a respectable ride height, and i'd bet that they have perfect suspension geometry, they were made to handle properly by people who know what they are doing, not some bloke from essex who races in stock hatch and thinks having his car lowered 60mm feels best. I've had a LOT of experience with saxo suspension, and can tell you right now, the most balanced saxo i've ever driven by far, was 20mm lower than standard with suitably hard front springs, uprated torsion bars etc, even on road tyres it was leagues ahead of any of the lower setups i've had. and i know exactly why, because i designed the setup after reading a lot of suspension tuning books, written by people who setup real race cars, and using the theory together with lots of testing.

    My new track setup is going to sit 25-35mm below standard.

    Is it all about centre of gravity still?
  7. #7
    yes?




  8. #8
    Anyway most of the cars in those competition pics are in corners and experiencing roll. Ok it may not be as severe as roll in my car but a pic taken in the corners of mine can lose 2in of rear height atleast. My car is set at 40mm front and 35mm rear. Shocks are a bit soft though as there Bilstein streetlines and I have a slightly thinner anti-roll bar on the front (ax gti) as opposed to the VTs one on the rear. But still the handlings good but I drive it to work everyday down bumpy lanes
  9. #9
    To be honest, the 20mm front ARB is a little better, with less weight being taken off the inside wheel you get better traction out of corners, and less understeer. downside being more tendancy to oversteer, and more body roll.

    Cars like touring cars are completely designed from teh ground up so that the suspension sits spot on at ride height, and their ride height is very low.
  10. #10
    fook me. you know your shit. repped for that.
  11. #11
    mines 35mm all round when you look at it though the rear looks a fair bit higher than the front, but the distance between tyre and arch is the same all round
  12. #12
    I really didn't go into much detail and missed loads of subjects, but i've gotta be up for work in 6 hours so i'm not getting into it.

    funny how a lot of james bristols "competition car" pics are of amateur cars without big arches or anything, not proper citroen sport cars. and they are all of the outside wheels while cornering, often with 16" & 17" wheels, as the rally cars have, which will make the arch gap smaller. etc.
  13. #13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AlexR View Post
    Here we go again...

    I can't really be bothered to go into detail really tonight, it's late.

    Ok, so what is handling?

    It's the car's capability to carry out a variety of tasks.

    To assess a cars handling you need to look at what it is required to do.

    for instance road cars are going to have to deal with pot holes, bumps etc, and will have a great compromise made for comfort. you can have hard low suspension that can cope with the bumps and keep good grip, but then it's too oncomfy for 99.9% of people.

    If a road car can't handle taking bumps, jumps, potholes, ridges etc at a reasonable speed without jumping about all over the road, losing grip due to bottoming out, taking off, bouncing you into a hedge, then it doesn't handle very well does it.

    It might GRIP well on a smooth surface but that's not much use, you should see some of the roads around here. Grip is a totally different thing to handling, it's just the amount of G force that a car can create during a cornering exercise. A car can corner faster or slower with the same amount of grip, depending on how it uses that grip, what the handling balance is for instance

    Then that's just talking about the ride height in terms of travel. What about talking about how the ride height affects the cars suspension geometry. from the factory it's set up so that it is optimum for road driving. the idea is that under cornering the geometry changes to try and keep optimum contact between the tyres and the road(camber caused by compression/extension depending on which side it is) and then there's caster & toe as well. when you lower the car, the geometry at ride height will have changed, the lower you go the further from "normal" it goes. This will affect not only cornering ability but straight line stability and tyre wear. People think more negative camber is good. Why is it good? If you have the suspension setup correctly, the inside tyre in a corner will have positive camber, this will keep more of the contact patch on the road, and the outside will gain some negative camber, as the car is rolling. The suspension gains this when the car rolls, from standard geometry. if you start with lots of negative at ride height, you will end up with lots of negative on the outside tyre, which is good, but you'll still have negative on the inside, which will lose you grip ultimately, the more grip you can get from each individual tyre the better. If there was no body roll there would be no need for camber.

    Centre of gravity? It's pretty damn low in a saxo anyway, and it's not the be all and end all of handling & grip. Given the lower the centre of gravity the less weight transfer one will get, hence less roll, but then lowering a car where the roll centres move differently front and rear will move them, say the rear roll centre stays the same if you lower a saxo, and the front drops, until the wishbones are level, then when the wishbones start to point upwards it won't go down anywhere near as fast. You are messing with the handling balance of the car by altering one roll centre but not the other.
    You want the wishbones to be totally parallel to the road at ride height ultimately.

    Then there's steering arm angles & arc,s which are affected when lowering or raising the car. Ideally you want the steering arms to be parallel to the ground when at ride height.

    I'm getting really bored now...

    Anyway, look at the real rally cars, they are using totally different steering racks, they use fully adjustable wishbones, they use uprated torsion bars and anti roll bars, they use fully adjustable alloy top mounts to tweek the front end geometry. And they don't sit slammed on the floor, they have a respectable ride height, and i'd bet that they have perfect suspension geometry, they were made to handle properly by people who know what they are doing, not some bloke from essex who races in stock hatch and thinks having his car lowered 60mm feels best. I've had a LOT of experience with saxo suspension, and can tell you right now, the most balanced saxo i've ever driven by far, was 20mm lower than standard with suitably hard front springs, uprated torsion bars etc, even on road tyres it was leagues ahead of any of the lower setups i've had. and i know exactly why, because i designed the setup after reading a lot of suspension tuning books, written by people who setup real race cars, and using the theory together with lots of testing.

    My new track setup is going to sit 25-35mm below standard.

    Is it all about centre of gravity still?

    I was just typing this Alex, beat me to it!

  14. #14
    lol @ tom
  15. #15
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stupotvts View Post
    I was looking about and came across some pics of saxo competition cars.
    every one on here including the stickies section says dont go lower than 40mm for handleing but these pics show the cars way lower than that and I think these guys must know a fair bit about how cars handle so are they wrong? Also I have read on here that you shouldn't lower saxo's more at the back than the front but a few pics shows just that.
    anyone know why these cars are set up like this??

    post #72

    http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...on+saxo&page=4
    basicly a simpler version of alex's reply.

    proper race competition cars can set there suspension up to compensate for any height,ie if the rally car is doing a smooth road stage and is lower then a gravel stage they can adjust ll the camber,caster,toe angles to make up for it.

    something we cant do unless omeone spends a bucket load of money to get it like that so what alex is saying is by going more then 35mm with fixed wishbones,caster etc will put all the angles out and you wouldnt be able to re-set all the angles at the lower height,therefore tyre contact pactches will not be as optimum as a car lowered just 20-30 mm.
  16. #16
    i met / competed against (he was in teh single seater class though) Alan Stainforth(currently 84 yrs old) who wrote the book "competition car suspension" at my last event. General trivia post
  17. #17
    I was just wondering why everyone said that 40mm was best for handling and the pics seemed to show something blaitantly different. I think the question was answered very well I am not going to argue with the answers given as I don't think the suspension guide is wrong it was just an observation I made cheers for the help peeps
  18. #18
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andy72 View Post
    i met / competed against (he was in teh single seater class though) Alan Stainforth(currently 84 yrs old) who wrote the book "competition car suspension" at my last event. General trivia post
    i got his chassis and suspension book,2nd edition i think.
    very good indeed.