110bhp out of a VTR

22nd July 2008, 11:38

Hi there.

How much would it cost / is it possible to get 110bhp out of a MK2 VTR without spending too much money.

I am aware that the VTR isn't as easily tuneable as the VTS but 110bhp using the torque stats calculator bring the 0-100 and 0-60 down a bit.

Any ideas what's the best bet to get this goal?

22nd July 2008, 11:41

Wouldn't cost that much if it's the 98 bhp version...

Manifold, decat, exhaust and an induction would maybe give 107ish...

22nd July 2008, 11:46

I know VTR_Nick has got 117bhp out of his MK2 VTR, with a 4-1 decat manifold and green filter

22nd July 2008, 11:47

lol! I doubt he has that much with just those mods...

22nd July 2008, 11:50

unless it fully mapped

22nd July 2008, 11:51

Dyno may be a bit Generous for that hike in power, David has got it Spot on.

22nd July 2008, 11:58

gmc 4-1
magnex pugsport
filter with a decent cold air feed

my vtr engine ran 113-115 on 3 different RR's over the space of 2 1/2 years

its very 1st outing at FCS 06 saw it killing every vtr it came across in a straight line and keeping pace or just edging over s2 rallyes with same mods

some engines make more power than what citroen say they made

also dont forget the 8v's were massivly restricted compaired to the 16's from factory
the cold air feed for one has a very restrictive pipe that goes really thin at one point
the manifold is shittly designed

the 16v has a nice large air pipe right through and the manifold is practically a 4-1 as standard

22nd July 2008, 12:02

In terms of air filters are the green's still the best or BMC?

I like the sound of Magnex exhaust, i'd rather have something quiet than a big booming exhaust.

Are we talking straight through or cat back?

22nd July 2008, 12:14

any filter with a good cold air supply will work fine tbh

and a catback system wont give as much a gain as a decat system

22nd July 2008, 12:19

So if I decatted it, how would I get it to pass it's MOT.

What sort of gains are you looking at with a decat?

22nd July 2008, 12:22

wont pass an mot no

although tbh if yours is the 98bhp engine if you fit a manifold that will remove the cat as the cat is in the manifold in the 98bhp versions

so you would have to refit your standard manifold for the mot

22nd July 2008, 12:27

Is that difficult to do?

I've fitted exhausts and that before but not manifolds lol.

22nd July 2008, 12:29

yeah there not too hard to do

just make sure you fit new manifold bolts when you fit it and it will go on and come off fine cos the standard ones get old and rusty

22nd July 2008, 12:32

i love fly wheel figures.

22nd July 2008, 12:35

love em all you want i have yet to find a single vtr thats not running bodies or boost thats ever kept pace in a straight line so im inclinde to think its making a decent amount of power increase

22nd July 2008, 12:59

Why are 4-1 manifolds more expensive than 4-2-1?

22nd July 2008, 13:01

Its not all about BHP, what about torque?

Try stripping the car too, free to do aswell.

22nd July 2008, 13:03

torque rules

mine hit 101lbs at 2000rpm and holds it all the way to 5700rpm peaking at 109lbs at 5000rpm

22nd July 2008, 13:10

How do you increase torque?

I thought a decat and full system would have increased torque?

22nd July 2008, 13:11

most mods will increase the toque along with bhp

22nd July 2008, 13:14

wouldnt bigger exhausts actually lose torque? as you lose back pressure? I suppose its about finding a compromise..

22nd July 2008, 13:21

not really as the standard one is quite restrictive

plus all performance made exhausts are designed to work with that car ie. magnex etc

powerflow stuff could lose you power as there just a random pipe made to fit the car

22nd July 2008, 13:28

What type of exhaust do I need to get it through it's MOT with the standard cat back on?

The MK2 exhausts seems a lot more expensive than the MK1.

22nd July 2008, 13:28

haha yep 2 posts why not!
ye that makes sense actually, so 2 to 2.5" bore is about right im guessing

22nd July 2008, 13:29

any exhaust should get it through its MOT vtrlad as long as the cats on and working

22nd July 2008, 13:32

if you fit a magnex or simlilar to your engine it will pass the mot cos unlike the older 90bhp vtr engines the cat is in your manifold so unless you remove the manifold to fir a 4 branch you will still have the cat on your car and as such it will pass the mot

22nd July 2008, 13:40

I do want to decat it though so whats the best way of doing it?

Keep the standard exhaust and manifold and but it back on?

If so I only need a mk1 exhaust then right?

22nd July 2008, 13:43

no MK2 exhaust as the hangers are slightly in different places if i recall

and a 8v manifold

22nd July 2008, 13:47

It's like there is a £100 difference between MK1 and MK2 exhausts.

Just because of hangers?

22nd July 2008, 13:48

with a manifold, decat, center section, b/box and a decent enclosed you should see in my opinion around 10 bhp give or take a couple. then theres your car, is it the 90 or 98 bhp version? and also they do have different power outputs from the factory like it has been said before on here. condition of the engine is imprtant too, has it had a good service history? stripping the interior is a good way to help increase the acceleration, be it very minimal plus it is a free mod. i think the 3 plug version of the vtr is harder to remap than the single plug version. if money is not a problem then look at getting a good cam and head work done. then get a remap done. other alternative is go for the vts conversion, can be done for less money than getting all the work done on the vtr engine. but thats my opinion mate.

22nd July 2008, 14:07

i know a quick and very cheap way of gaining bout 7 bhp
haven't put mine on yet but my step dad was a mechanic back in the day and said that it does work as him and his mate had one on their old school cosworths lol. pm me to find out or just ask and i'll post it lol but no laughing at me

22nd July 2008, 14:09

basically to decat you need a new manifold, raceland would be the one
the buy a supersprint exhaust or similar, you will need a manifold back system for your car
then come MOT time you will just have to put your standard manifold back on, you can keep the aftermarket system on though. Hope this helps!

22nd July 2008, 14:11

seankc does it involve shoving a crowbar into he cat and breaking up all of the metal and just emptying it out?? problem with doin that is that come MOT time you wont have a cat to put in and so cant pass! im just guessing this is the method? post it anyways

22nd July 2008, 14:12

not interested then anyone. no

22nd July 2008, 14:14

@ VTRCarl.

Yea the engine is in pretty decent condition. Has been serviced on time every time since new. Its on it way towards 65k, cambelt has recently been done along with water pump and tensioner so i'm fairly confident the engine is healthy.

Insurance on a VTS for me is an extra £100 a year so engine transplants won't happen as it would be cheaper for me to get an VTS.

22nd July 2008, 14:14

oh no lol sounds quite good tho lol
what i mean is getting a resistor chip and setting it all right for the car
on a saxo i've heard it gives 7 bhp but more on other cars and less depending on vehicle obviously.
what it does is basically lies to your car and makes it think it is taking more cold air than it actually is which means that it adds more petrol and off you go.
not sure if he said if it works with a new cold air feed kit tho. may work better as is getting even more cold air
only thing is that it uses a lil bit more petrol. what ya think

22nd July 2008, 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by seankc08

oh no lol sounds quite good tho lol
what i mean is getting a resistor chip and setting it all right for the car
on a saxo i've heard it gives 7 bhp but more on other cars and less depending on vehicle obviously.
what it does is basically lies to your car and makes it think it is taking more cold air than it actually is which means that it adds more petrol and off you go.
not sure if he said if it works with a new cold air feed kit tho. may work better as is getting even more cold air
only thing is that it uses a lil bit more petrol. what ya think

Won't the car over fuel and fail emissions then though sean?

22nd July 2008, 14:17

So by making it think its getting more cold air, it adds more fuel? Making it over fuel....Not what you want. Which is why people say the resistor chips off ebay are shite.

Best mods for a VTR engine already been mentioned.

Ind. kit, mani, decat. Then onto cams, headwork, etc etc...

22nd July 2008, 14:19

doesnt really matter as you only fit the pump between the sensor for the air feed which means u can put it in and out at any time and seriously only takes 5 mins to fit not even that.
spose it would tho yeah. works better on a warm day too so is better now the summer has finally arrived lol. better late than never i suppose

22nd July 2008, 14:20

may be shit but it does work. if you want extra bhp. i know over fuelling isn't great for the car but as i said in and out whenever you want

22nd July 2008, 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by seankc08

may be shit but it does work. if you want extra bhp. i know over fuelling isn't great for the car but as i said in and out whenever you want

it will completely ruin your car

worst idea so far in this thread

22nd July 2008, 14:30

yea those chips are cheap for a reason... they dont work!
saw a 106 gti **** up its bottom end cos of one of those chips, what a waste! all to spend more money on fuel without more speed!

22nd July 2008, 14:38

so i shouldnt trust my step dad then.. thanks lads glad u told me that. i've got one at home ready to put on but wont bother now. really appreciate that. thankyou very much.

22nd July 2008, 15:59

no worries! you're lucky you mentioned it!

22nd July 2008, 16:10

a bhp and torque figure is really just a number, its how it puts it down on the road that counts, transmission losses etc

Your better off starting with basics, enclosed filter, exhaust, de-cat, manifold (if 90bhp version) then move on to changing the cam and map it, should be looking at around 120ish then at a guess

22nd July 2008, 17:24

thinking about it I put my 1.4 clutch and flywheel on my 1.6 engine, and the flywheel is noticably lighter so that was a little bonus!

22nd July 2008, 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by alextoffie

it will completely ruin your car

worst idea so far in this thread

not technically 100% true.

Williamsvts iirc overfueled his car was fine, also had it mapped to run slightly more rich.
other wise why would gmc make fuel pressure regulators

Too much over fueling of course i agree, but slightly no.
Unless what i have said is bollocks and i miss read something somewhere then fine, i take it back.

tbh for the amount of extra fuel burnt dont think you would see any difference.

IMO

piper 4-1 manifold
Decent induction kit with a decent cold air feed.
well serviced engine.
Decent exhaust system, the supersprints seems to be the choice atm but if you have a 98bhp car anyway you will decat it with the manifold, although richie2104vtr did rate his janspeed 4-1 sports cat manifold more than his piper 4-1 which decatted it.
Quickshift will shave a tiny bit of time off also.

Also stripping the car is good, richies car once again, it doesnt beat vts's but you dont leave him as much as you think you would

Shauny, leeroy, joesnow, myself and other VTS that have been to NE meets am sure can confirm that.
But he did make 97.9bhp on a rolling road hahaha so not even standard bhp lmao.
God knows what its running atm but he dicks on all the other VTR's round here tbf

Think banger_vtr made 108bhp on the same rollers richie used, but richie beats him hands down all the time

Also its not about figures its how the car drives ^ as more or less stated above.

Sticking your 1.4 flywheel on? not sure if thats possible? not something i would personally do.
If i was going to get a lightened flywheel (which i am) i would take it to qep.
If you search i made a thread about it a while back.

Also to shave some time off get a shorter ratio box, once again this has been covered many a time.
Personally for a vtr i would stick with the VTR box, but you can stick a VTS on, S2 rallye box although hardly any difference to a VTS box, shorter ratio again a 1.4xsi box then hardcore or go home an s1 rallye box

22nd July 2008, 17:57

supersprint 4-2-1
supersprint race system
and a bmc cda

these gave me just under 107bhp and that was about £550 worth of stuff

22nd July 2008, 18:01

one thing i forgot to say....

Its not all about straight lines.
As well as going fast you need good brakes

I would rather invest in decent brakes and suspension way before i spent money trying to go faster in a straight.

Its all about the corners tbh, anyone can drive fast in a straight line imo

22nd July 2008, 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_VTS

one thing i forgot to say....

Its not all about straight lines.
As well as going fast you need good brakes

I would rather invest in decent brakes and suspension way before i spent money trying to go faster in a straight.

Its all about the corners tbh, anyone can drive fast in a straight line imo

i agree totally thats why im getting a 306 gti-6 setup at the front, and maybe a disc conversion to the back. As for all the power talk, well me and my dad are both mechanics, and we made sure the flywheel and clutch were exactly the same before we put them on, its just some pointless metal added onto the 1.6 that makes it heavier. Im also on a 1.4 gearbox so acceleration isnt bad. repped for your comment btw, good detailed answer!!

22nd July 2008, 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elliot17

i agree totally thats why im getting a 306 gti-6 setup at the front, and maybe a disc conversion to the back. As for all the power talk, well me and my dad are both mechanics, and we made sure the flywheel and clutch were exactly the same before we put them on, its just some pointless metal added onto the 1.6 that makes it heavier. Im also on a 1.4 gearbox so acceleration isnt bad. repped for your comment btw, good detailed answer!!

cheers mate, i dont know about the flywheels tbh
i was looking to get mine lightend, you tried a 1.4 fly on a VTR?

as for the gearbox make sure you dont stick a furio/westcoast 1.4 box on as they are different to teh 1.4xsi boxes from the 106's

22nd July 2008, 19:15

110bhp can be had out of the early black top MPI 1360cc with ease. So getting 110bhp out of a early VTR would be a doodle. People get well over 120bhp out of VTRs racing in "standard" race classes. These even rain standard cast iron exhaust manifold. TU engine fly wheels are not exactly heavy to start with so you dont get a great deal from lightening them. But saying that it wont do any harm shedding a small bit form a 1.6 one or even fitting a 1.4 one and just getting it modified to take the 200mm clutch. Though there are many things you are better off spending your cash on. Also dont go mod with lightening as these fly wheels do go pop, this is more so if you have a high revving race engine though. My old 1360cc was basically running a stock iron fly wheel but adapted to take a lug drive clutch. That engine would fly off the top of a 9,000rpm stack rev counter in the heat of battle. It span up beautifully and there was no delay when changing gear even with a quick shift close ratio race box. Just trying to show you dont have to try shed tones of weight.

22nd July 2008, 19:41

Lets not get resistor chips confused with the FPR. They both are very different things. Upping the fuel pressure actually allows your injectors to flow more a resistor does not. Also don’t forget that simply adding fuel will not give you more power. Then lets nor forget that the Saxo actually has a not to bad lambda correction system.

22nd July 2008, 19:47

So for me to gain 10bhp I'm looking at spending £500?

Surely i'm better off with a VTS then?

22nd July 2008, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrlad

So for me to gain 10bhp I'm looking at spending £500?

Surely i'm better off with a VTS then?

£500 on a VTS would take me to what? 140bhp?

That sounds cool

22nd July 2008, 19:53

VTS is only 120bhp and are not as strait forward fit as it may sound.

22nd July 2008, 19:59

I won't be engine swapping. I'd just sell my VTR and get a VTS.

Insurance is only £700 fully comp a year on a VTS so all i'd have to do is sell mine and find a decent one.

The VTS responds to breathing mods a lot more than the VTR, right?

22nd July 2008, 20:03

more because it has more power standard

22nd July 2008, 20:10

Yeah but what are the differences in the block? Apart from the head?

22nd July 2008, 20:23

Have you thought about a turbo? A few thousand on a basic turbo kit on your VTR and you will be getting a lot more power than even what most tuned VTSs have. Also with a boosted saxo its a lot easier to get more power down the line if you wish to spend any more.

22nd July 2008, 21:19

I haven't really given that a thought no. Would an intercooler have to be fitted too?

I thought you could get an VTS upto about 160-170bhp without too much fuss.

22nd July 2008, 21:21

intercooler is dependant, will be better, depends on spec. mr ax will sort you out

vts cammed will be around 150ish maybe a more. above that then it get expensive

22nd July 2008, 21:23

What box would you run a VTR Ti on haha? The standard?

I've heard the power delivery of the turbo's is not as great as a tuned up N/A VTS? Is this a myth or true?

22nd July 2008, 21:43

yeah youd have to wait for you boost where as na especially with bodies is great throttle response. supercharger is another option. you need to set yourself a budget and work form there i think

22nd July 2008, 21:53

£500.......and I want it to leave a Clio 172 hahaha.

22nd July 2008, 21:55

I'd stretch to £700 if I could keep the VTR.

22nd July 2008, 21:55

*Just on engine work*

22nd July 2008, 22:05

Would an S1 / VTS gearbox, full system and a manifold not make it pretty nippy?

22nd July 2008, 22:29

s1 / vts box are in there own league..... both would yes s1 more so then the vts box, if you read the previous posts in the thread its already been said.

By me in fact

22nd July 2008, 22:32

Ahh right haha I didn't see that.

How fast would it be say if I did get 107-110bhp and then chucked a S1 box on?

Quick as an S1? Quicker?

22nd July 2008, 22:53

supercharge it!!!! OR if you dont fancy boost then buying a VTS would be the best way of gaining, but if you want to stick 8v, which I would.. then just follow leeds106's example! hes got 120+hp i think with just breathing mods and a mild cam.. Would be awesome fun to drive!
In reply to earlier posts, I don't know if mine was weird or not but im using my 1.4 flywheel and clutch which fitted perfectly? For now im not revving it to hard, I find shifting just below 6k is about peak for me. Will be interesting once ive cammed and mapped it... vtrlad I just realised we're in a similar position lol

22nd July 2008, 22:58

Okay.

Could somebody simplify this for me please.

Cost of a Mk2 VTS with 40-60k miles (standard) £2500-£3500 ?

Cost of manifold, full system and cams £1000?

Cost of turbo kit £1000?

Cost of supercharger?

Cost of rallye gearbox?

How would an 8v @ 120bhp perform against a VTS?

22nd July 2008, 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elliot17

supercharge it!!!! OR if you dont fancy boost then buying a VTS would be the best way of gaining, but if you want to stick 8v, which I would.. then just follow leeds106's example! hes got 120+hp i think with just breathing mods and a mild cam.. Would be awesome fun to drive!
In reply to earlier posts, I don't know if mine was weird or not but im using my 1.4 flywheel and clutch which fitted perfectly? For now im not revving it to hard, I find shifting just below 6k is about peak for me. Will be interesting once ive cammed and mapped it... vtrlad I just realised we're in a similar position lol

Haha, i've had my VTR 2.5 years and it's been a super little car. Never had a thing go wrong (touch wood) and i've done near enough 40k in it.

I just want to be thrown back into my seat again haha.

22nd July 2008, 23:02

got roughly the right price for the car, depending on quality obv

mani, system and cam- could get easily for 600-700

turbo for 1k i dont think so, you'd need low comp pistons, forged bottom end- total cost about 4-5k

superchargers cost just a little bit less iirc

rallye gearbox, would be difficult to find one in good shape, I would stick with yours for now

well with similar hp an 8v would edge it on response and maybe acceleration with the gearbox, probs similar though.. But 16v would dominate top speed wise

22nd July 2008, 23:04

So with a mani, system and cam..........i'd be looking at 120bhp?

mani = decat yeah?

22nd July 2008, 23:05

Quote:

turbo for 1k i dont think so, you'd need low comp pistons, forged bottom end- total cost about 4-5k

Depends on the boost you run, standard internals can take some boost.
You could get a turbo kit close to that price, there is one on here for 400 or six hundred, i cant remember but it needs intercooler mf2 boost pipes etc.

22nd July 2008, 23:06

bit risky surely?? and the amount of power gained from such little boost wouldn't be worth it? i suppose its personal preference

22nd July 2008, 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrlad

So with a mani, system and cam..........i'd be looking at 120bhp?

mani = decat yeah?

don't forget induction to free up the cam, and yea with that 120hp is possible if everything works nicely

22nd July 2008, 23:08

Quote:

bit risky surely?? and the amount of power gained from such little boost wouldn't be worth it? i suppose its personal preference

Depends really, quite a few VTR turbos have ran on here with standard internals, medz_vtrturbo for example.

22nd July 2008, 23:10

It's my first car so i'm a bit reluctant to sell it tbh as I love it to bits.

I just want it to hit 60 in low 8's high 7's and shade a fair whack off the 0-100.

I've been looking at 306 GTI's, Clio 172's and VTS's but for the CLio especially, I'd need to take a loan out to buy a phase 2 and i'd rather not get into debt.

I like how "chuckable" my Saxo is so thats why I wanna hang onto it really.

Oh and it hardly costs anything to run lol.

22nd July 2008, 23:11

haha maybe it can be done then! still I'd be bricking myself everytime I drove it worrying! Funny thing is theres a lil turbo ive found for free at my garage, but I can't put it in cos of fear lol, if I did I would personally have to rebuild the engine and that's just asking too much of me for now lol

22nd July 2008, 23:12

ye i think saxo's/106's are brilliant handling and fun, love em to bits! thing is a 306 gti-6 isn't actually much quicker then a VTS, it just has a huge top speed

22nd July 2008, 23:15

sorry to do another post but in terms of your 0-60
mines a 1.6 one my 1.4 gearbox with a 1.4 flywheel and clutch, with decat and induction kit, my 0-60 is around 9 seconds so getting to 8 is so easy! just stripping out would knock off a lot!

22nd July 2008, 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrlad

Okay.

Could somebody simplify this for me please.

Cost of a Mk2 VTS with 40-60k miles (standard) £2500-£3500 ?

Cost of manifold, full system and cams £1000?1800 mapped

Cost of turbo kit £1000? 3,000 upwards

Cost of supercharger? gmc fitted is 6 or 7000

Cost of rallye gearbox? 200 plus

How would an 8v @ 120bhp perform against a VTS?

there you go, depends how handy you are with a spanner

sophia_sells turbo kits you could fit yourself

22nd July 2008, 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elliot17

ye i think saxo's/106's are brilliant handling and fun, love em to bits! thing is a 306 gti-6 isn't actually much quicker then a VTS, it just has a huge top speed

The 6 does pull ahead. Awful fuel economy though.

What cam's are the best for the VTR?

22nd July 2008, 23:17

Quote:

sorry to do another post but in terms of your 0-60
mines a 1.6 one my 1.4 gearbox with a 1.4 flywheel and clutch, with decat and induction kit, my 0-60 is around 9 seconds so getting to 8 is so easy! just stripping out would knock off a lot!

more to do with the gearing than the power tbh, the vtr engine should pull in the nines.

22nd July 2008, 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaybiss

there you go, depends how handy you are with a spanner

sophia_sells turbo kits you could fit yourself

Damn. £1800 on a VTS would see what? 180bhp?

22nd July 2008, 23:24

Quote:

Damn. £1800 on a VTS would see what? 180bhp?

No between 150-160 with cams such as 708s and mapping, induction, manifold exhaust ect. 180 is wilder cam and bodies territory and your looking at a lot more than 1800.

22nd July 2008, 23:26

yea i know its the gearing!

but i dont need to go over 115 anyway so its fine!
vtr lad I would go for a piper 285 cam, but that should have a remap
you might get away with a piper 270 with no remap but might not run great

22nd July 2008, 23:30

Quote:

you might get away with a piper 270 with no remap but might not run great

If you are going to do that I wouldnt bother tbh, not worth the cost as the gains wouldnt be too good.

22nd July 2008, 23:33

yup i agree with makaveli, thats why i recommend 285s to be honest

22nd July 2008, 23:36

What gains do you get with a 285 and map?

22nd July 2008, 23:38

15hp ish depending on other mods, breathing mods are a must to get any real benefit from cam upgrades

22nd July 2008, 23:41

Spenind £1800 on a VTR gets you to VTS power?

I can see why people do engine swaps lol.

Why is the VTR soo damn hard to tune

22nd July 2008, 23:45

it shouldn't be! mani and system- £300
good induction £100
Cam £200, or kit for best gains £400
£800-£1k for roughly vts power
and its more fun tuning isnt it??!

22nd July 2008, 23:47

It needs a remap though doesn't it?

Yes it is. But a 160bhp also.......sounds fun

22nd July 2008, 23:47

edit *VTS

22nd July 2008, 23:50

ye remap would be needed! its completely up to you mate im just trying to help out! do what YOU want not what other people or me try to tell you to do lol
the other thing to think about is that with more power you are going to need better brakes and suspension, otherwise you'll only experience that added power once LOL

22nd July 2008, 23:52

Haha and standard vtr brakes are pretty crap lol.

VTS sounds like the most sain option. It's a shame the VTR isn't highly tuneable for the money.

22nd July 2008, 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elliot17

it shouldn't be! mani and system- £300
good induction £100
Cam £200, or kit for best gains £400
£800-£1k for roughly vts power
and its more fun tuning isnt it??!

Yeah but IMHO you might as well start with the 120bhp to begin with. rather than spend money tuning to keep up with a stock VTS then a mildly tuned one pulls away again!

My old AX GTi (1.4) had a 4-1 manifold, full Scorpion system and a open K&N (how I cringe at that now!) and made 10bhp more at the wheels on a RR. Faster than my mates VTR, although the GTi's box helped too.

As already said don't get hung up on peak HP figures, espeically RR ones!

22nd July 2008, 23:58

AX weighs the same as a pack of fags though doesn't it haha?

What BHP did you get out of it?

23rd July 2008, 08:04

if your budget is 5-700 just buy a vts. unless you can source a load of second hand parts

23rd July 2008, 11:14

well for me i get free labour and trade discount on parts so I prefer the tuning idea. But with the cost of labour aswell, maybe a VTS is wise thinking about it lol

24th July 2008, 09:41

I'm pretty spanner happy. My mate has done various engine swaps etc too but this time I think it's more than logical to just change the car.

My mate reckons the MK1 VTS's are easier to tune. Is that correct?

24th July 2008, 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrlad

Hi there.

How much would it cost / is it possible to get 110bhp out of a MK2 VTR without spending too much money.

I am aware that the VTR isn't as easily tuneable as the VTS but 110bhp using the torque stats calculator bring the 0-100 and 0-60 down a bit.

Any ideas what's the best bet to get this goal?

Why isn't the VTR as easily tuneable?

Why is the Mk1 VTS easier to tune? If he means single plug ECUs are less tempter mental then yes.

110bhp can be got from:

Enclosed induction kit
Manifold
Full exhaust

I know as I have that spec and got 113bhp on a RR which I took with a pinch of salt. But what I will say is that a cammed 3 plug VTS with '160bhp' didn't have enough difference on a test drive over mine for me to buy it. I gave it some beans on some national speed limit roads and did a few 0-70mph starts but couldn't see where the extra 50bhp was.

However, the guy who eventually bought that VTS said it felt quicker than his CTR

24th July 2008, 14:02

more power for your money with a VTS though.

VTS drives totally different to a VTR with respect to power delivery.

24th July 2008, 15:47

The reason it's not easily tuneable is pretty simple.

Spend £1000 on a VTR and get an extra 20bhp..............and still get left behind by a VTS.

Spend £1000 on a VTS and you will give a 172 a run for it's money.

VTS is 16v.

VTS has a better gearbox.

24th July 2008, 19:47

I knew thats what you would say but what does that have to do with simplicity?

Why does the VTS have a 'better' gearbox?

The second question is rhetorical because I know you'll say 'because it can get you to 60 quicker'.

A cammed VTR would not get left behind by a standard VTS.

I love this forum. A cammed Furio will dick a standard VTR, but a cammed VTR will get left behind by a standard VTS.

VTRs obviously suck or this is retard country.

24th July 2008, 21:52

Erm because it's short ratio?

The VTR has a really long box. Look at the differences between the two cars to 100mph.

You telling me thats all down to the VTS having an extra 20bhp?

A cammed VTR would still lose in a drag to 100mph against a standard VTS.

Back me up VTS boys!

Oh and the 1.4 block in the Furio is different to the VTR's. Blocks react differently to mods.

What is the point in spending a bucket load of money getting a car to perform aswell as the one above when the one above can be had for the same money or less?

24th July 2008, 22:11

Erm because it's short ratio?

The VTR has a really long box. Look at the differences between the two cars to 100mph.

You telling me thats all down to the VTS having an extra 20bhp?

So why does that make it 'better'? You're missing my point. If it was known to be more reliable or built to a higher standard then it could be considered 'better'. But you're being subjective, and saying its better because it suits what you would want it to do.

A cammed VTR would still lose in a drag to 100mph against a standard VTS.

Possibly, probably, I dont know. I didnt say it wouldnt did I? You were making out that a cammed VTR wouldnt be anywhere near a standard VTS, that is what I disagreed with.

What is the point in spending a bucket load of money getting a car to perform aswell as the one above when the one above can be had for the same money or less?

You tell me? You asked how to get 110bhp out of a VTR! I've recommended VTR owners to get S lumps instead of camming their VTR lumps and people had a go about that. I can't fucking win.

So dont know why I bother.

24th July 2008, 23:34

cammed 1.3 would be faster than a VTR

bullit!! hello!

24th July 2008, 23:34

a cammed 1.1 will do a 1.3
hi sexy

25th July 2008, 11:02

All i'm saying is why spend the money trying to get a VTR to VTS standard when I could sell my VTR and get a VTS with change.

It's a no brainer.

I simply asked if it was possible without chucking silly ammounts of money for little gains.

25th July 2008, 11:26

Im in that boat.

I now need more power. Do I mod the VTR to get to VTS power and then start with big bucks to go past it?, do I sell the car and buy a vts? Or do I drop a vts lump in the car.

Im going to do the latter for the reasons-

- Ive spent a shitload modding the suspension/bushes etc on the vtr. It has 72K miles on and is in generally sound condition. I know all its problems and have spent the last year ironing out all the stuff that needed replacing.
- Buying a VTS would be starting again effectively which is not really the most cost effective way to build a quick car.

Dropping in a VTS lump has the negative effect on insurance. Its most likely to cost more than actually insuring a standard VTS as they class it as modified etc.

25th July 2008, 11:34

The VTS is a better car in the long run. The seats are nicer, you get a few more airbags, eleccy mirrors, ABS and possibly EBD if you are lucky.

My VTR is totally bog standard. If I'd have spent a fortune modifying it then obviously I'd be reluctant to get rid.

I'm guessing there will be teething problems with something like an engine swap?

25th July 2008, 11:47

why does it matter if a modded vtr engine produces 120bhp to match a standard vts engine

bhp aint the overall deciding factor unless ya like braging rights with ya mates

the 2 engines drive totally differently to each other

a modded 8v will be nicer to drive everyday at low revs and pretty quick depending on what you do to it when needed

if your willing to throw 100' or even 1000's at ya car then yeah go 16v if not id stay 8v and enjoy the slightly cheaper side of modding when it comes to buying cams

25th July 2008, 12:03

I want a pocket rocket.

Something capable of hunting down Civic Type R's, Clio Sports & Mini Cooper S's.

A Saxo VTR, unless it has some kind of turbo charger or supercharger will not be able to do that. Surely?

25th July 2008, 12:18

if you have the 90bhp version of the vtr what id do personally if i didnt wanna spend loads would be to

4 branch=£120
magnex or smiliar=£250
filter with decen cold air feed=£100
kent 285 cam=£200
uprated valve spring=£80
adjustable pulley=£90

and then id stick on a bike carb set up which if you buy most of it yourself can be had and put together for under £400

asuming the above cant all be found cheaper 2nd hand or as part of a deal that all comes to £1240 in total

and once its all on a running ya will be pushing around 140bhp(might not seem much) but you will have a highly modded engine and car that will go like stink and sound fucking awesome

other alternative is to spend around 1k maybe more on getting a 16v dropped in it and them camming that which will cost around about the same but will need a remap to get the best out of the cam which will produce 150bhp

and to 110mph my money would be on a carb and cammed 8v cos the torque from the 8v will be just stupid

at high speeds then yeah the 16v will win but who cares its all about the bottom end for me

its mainly down to what YOU want your car for and what you want from it

bhp figures win arguments
torque wins races

25th July 2008, 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeds106

why does it matter if a modded vtr engine produces 120bhp to match a standard vts engine

bhp aint the overall deciding factor unless ya like braging rights with ya mates

the 2 engines drive totally differently to each other

a modded 8v will be nicer to drive everyday at low revs and pretty quick depending on what you do to it when needed

if your willing to throw 100' or even 1000's at ya car then yeah go 16v if not id stay 8v and enjoy the slightly cheaper side of modding when it comes to buying cams

I agree with nearly all of what you have put there leeds.

I have driven a VTS a few times and obviously, driven my VTR for a few years now and the VTR low down is a lot nicer car to drive.

The VTS, when giving it a hammering is a lot lot better though.

Spending £500 on a VTR would gain me 10bhp. It would probably gain me the same on the VTS but I'm starting off with something that was quicker in the first place.

If the VTS was a no go, it it cost me and extra £2000 to insure then i'd have no choice.

VTS insurance is no longer an issue so it's a no brainer.

I guess I could do with driving a tuned 8v.

25th July 2008, 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrlad

I want a pocket rocket.

Something capable of hunting down Civic Type R's, Clio Sports & Mini Cooper S's.

A Saxo VTR, unless it has some kind of turbo charger or supercharger will not be able to do that. Surely?

really it could would cost a bit but civics are hardly cheap...

seriously if you put in a xsi box,cams,breathing mods,mani,decat and full exhaust system, along with some throttle bodies and standalone in a vtr you would be getting some serious power... would cost a fair bit but my god would it be some fun and piss some people off...

there my future plans.. will take me a couple of year of saving and doing mods as and when but it will happen...

after i uprate the suspension... on a track in a vtr with uprated suspension you would be surprised about how well you could keep up with faster cars due to the handling...

all about the twisties imo...

25th July 2008, 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeds106

if you have the 90bhp version of the vtr what id do personally if i didnt wanna spend loads would be to

4 branch=£120
magnex or smiliar=£250
filter with decen cold air feed=£100
kent 285 cam=£200
uprated valve spring=£80
adjustable pulley=£90

and then id stick on a bike carb set up which if you buy most of it yourself can be had and put together for under £400

asuming the above cant all be found cheaper 2nd hand or as part of a deal that all comes to £1240 in total

and once its all on a running ya will be pushing around 140bhp(might not seem much) but you will have a highly modded engine and car that will go like stink and sound fucking awesome

other alternative is to spend around 1k maybe more on getting a 16v dropped in it and them camming that which will cost around about the same but will need a remap to get the best out of the cam which will produce 150bhp

and to 110mph my money would be on a carb and cammed 8v cos the torque from the 8v will be just stupid

at high speeds then yeah the 16v will win but who cares its all about the bottom end for me

its mainly down to what YOU want your car for and what you want from it

bhp figures win arguments
torque wins races

I've got the 98bhp silver top leeds.

Won't it need a remap with the cams?

I'm just trying to weigh up the options really. If I spend that much on a VTS i'd be looking at 6.5-6 seconds to 60 and around 155-160bhp?

Has anyone on the board actually done those mods leeds? I'm interested to here their results.

25th July 2008, 12:26

not yet but im about to hehe

ive got the carb set up i just need to put together an inlet manifold and then put them on and see how it goes with the 266 cam in it

at the moment i can pretty much keep with most 16v's till around 80 when they creep and i meen creep away

with the carbs and the 266cam i recon ill be a touch quicker till 100 tbh

once i get a 285 in it and set it up on carbs i recon ill be raping them hehe

25th July 2008, 12:28

with a 285 in your engine without carbs you will need to remap it asame as i will if i dont run bike carbs and fit a 285

all you will need is

285 cam
uprated valve springs
adjustable pulley

fit it all then take it to nearest tuners for a RR set up

with manifold,exhaust etc you should on injection be making around 130bhp and plenty of torque to keep you happy

25th July 2008, 12:33

here ya go the very 1st time a 98bhp vtr engine has been ran on bike carbs all caught on vid

http://s169.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=S7300338.flv

it was only a mock up though as i used a standard plastic inlet to make up an inlet so it was never intended for driving purposes
only bad thing is noone makes inlets for the 98bhp engine as the post spacing are different to the 90bhp engines

hence why i can just order an inlet i have to make one up

25th July 2008, 12:44

Thats does sound pretty nice.

Are you running a silver top in your quiksilver then?

25th July 2008, 12:46

yeah had it fitted about 18months ago as it was low milage(26k) came with 4-1 gmc manifold and unlocked ecu and cost me a damn sight less than fitting a 16v

never looked back tbh

25th July 2008, 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeds106

if you have the 90bhp version of the vtr what id do personally if i didnt wanna spend loads would be to

4 branch=£120
magnex or smiliar=£250
filter with decen cold air feed=£100
kent 285 cam=£200
uprated valve spring=£80
adjustable pulley=£90

and then id stick on a bike carb set up which if you buy most of it yourself can be had and put together for under £400

asuming the above cant all be found cheaper 2nd hand or as part of a deal that all comes to £1240 in total

and once its all on a running ya will be pushing around 140bhp(might not seem much) but you will have a highly modded engine and car that will go like stink and sound fucking awesome

other alternative is to spend around 1k maybe more on getting a 16v dropped in it and them camming that which will cost around about the same but will need a remap to get the best out of the cam which will produce 150bhp

and to 110mph my money would be on a carb and cammed 8v cos the torque from the 8v will be just stupid

at high speeds then yeah the 16v will win but who cares its all about the bottom end for me

its mainly down to what YOU want your car for and what you want from it

bhp figures win arguments
torque wins races

Totally agree, Repped

25th July 2008, 13:02

I thought the 1.4 alloy block in the Quiksilver could easily out perform a VTR tuned?

25th July 2008, 13:06

no cos at the end of the day there is no replacement for displacement

my and fuzzy orange ran engine with the same mods

mine 1.6 8v his 1.4 8v and from the line the differences were very noticeable

side by side at say 40 in 3rd and gun it the 1.6 8v was still quicker but the extra weight of the vtr cast block showed a bit more

one thing i found going from a 1.4 to a 1.6 was just how much drivable it is at slow speeds

i can now drive at 40mph in 5th running at 2000rpm and put foot down and the car just goes

before id have been dropping to 3rd or soemthing lol

25th July 2008, 13:20

Do you think it'd be a good idea to RR my car first?

If it's not hitting 98bhp now, whats the point in modding it right?

25th July 2008, 13:22

dont worry about what bhp it is making
so long as it feels quick and your happy with how it drives then thats all that matters

figures meen nothing its how it goes on the road that really matters

25th July 2008, 13:37

Why do you recommend a 4-1 mani over a 4-2-1?

25th July 2008, 13:50

no scientific reason tbh but everyone i know runs a 4-2-1 manifold and mine quicker so i can only assume its helped or certainly not hindered it in anyway tbh

25th July 2008, 14:19

dunno how many times i've been into it, a vts engine will always be better than a vtr engine when modded for the same max power, a 16v has a wider spread of power because of the design. who do all manufacturers use 16v engines now?

25th July 2008, 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexR

dunno how many times i've been into it, a vts engine will always be better than a vtr engine when modded for the same max power, a 16v has a wider spread of power because of the design. who do all manufacturers use 16v engines now?

cos they bought the 16v badges cheap on bulk order from halfords?

25th July 2008, 14:27

Of course, how silly of me

25th July 2008, 14:28

simple explanation for everything

25th July 2008, 14:28

its not quite the point of this thread though is it

he just basically wants info on which is worth him doing

and cost wise i know what id do but then again ive done the whole spending a fortune on cars years ago so im not less willing to do it as much

otherwise id be running a mad bodied 16v engine

25th July 2008, 15:19

Why do people go for engine swaps so often then?

25th July 2008, 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrlad

Why do people go for engine swaps so often then?

cos its the cheapest way to get from vtr to vts pace.

25th July 2008, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrlad

AX weighs the same as a pack of fags though doesn't it haha?

What BHP did you get out of it?

A AX GTi came out the factory with 100bhp so I'd estimate 110bhp, and yeah they do weigh f00k all! If I ever have a mishap in the Saxo, I'd get an AX to stick the engine in

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeblow

Why isn't the VTR as easily tuneable?

Why is the Mk1 VTS easier to tune? If he means single plug ECUs are less tempter mental then yes.

110bhp can be got from:

Enclosed induction kit
Manifold
Full exhaust

I know as I have that spec and got 113bhp on a RR which I took with a pinch of salt.....,

Pinch of salt you say... thats why you've metioned it in your Avatar bit?!

Just messing dude.

I thought about getting a VTR, better MPG and cheaper insurance. Then I got quotes for both a VTR and VTS, £225 for a VTR or £265 for a VTS, so I thought may as well get the nippier one, slighty safer one. Really glad I did now.

27th July 2008, 21:35

Whats a raspy system/mani then guys?

I've just paid my insurance off in the VTR for the year so decided i'll keep it for 10 months.

I'll be approaching 21 this time next year so insurance on high powered cars shouldnt be that much of an issue!

29th July 2008, 00:45

i think 500£ if its a 98bhp model and it should be there or just over

29th July 2008, 14:21

110bhp?

29th July 2008, 16:11

110bhp is easy to get out of a VTR I reckon I could get over 120bhp using PSA parts no problems and cost less than £500 to

29th July 2008, 16:55

PSA parts?

3rd August 2008, 00:54

I've been hearing good things about superspint systems and how they are raspy?

Do I need a center section?