Decision is made-spec time!!!

4th August 2008, 14:17

Right, iv finally made my mind up about what to do about the engine in my VTR...
take it out and drop in a throttle bodies vts one. Im aiming for around 180bhp, I have spoke to QEP and they said i might aswell aim for 190bhp as its not far off and can still be an every day car.
So, now im looking to spec the engine;so all advice welcome...
First question is on the bottom end...obviously il be going forged pistons, new bearings, is there anything else i should really be changing bottom end wise?

Spec iv thought of so far, so if there is anything you think i should change, let me know...
-KMS
-KMS DTH throttle bodies
-QEP big valve head
-Catcams 734's??
-Followers, retainers, springs
-Piper 4-1
-Supersprint race exhaust

What other things should i change when building the engine?
Headgasket..
Sump gasket..
Any timing components?
Seals?
Any info very much appreciated...

4th August 2008, 14:20

u could get it port matched and bore the cylinders.

4th August 2008, 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex_3589

Right, iv finally made my mind up about what to do about the engine in my VTR...
take it out and drop in a throttle bodies vts one. Im aiming for around 180bhp, I have spoke to QEP and they said i might aswell aim for 190bhp as its not far off and can still be an every day car.
So, now im looking to spec the engine;so all advice welcome...
First question is on the bottom end...obviously il be going forged pistons, new bearings, is there anything else i should really be changing bottom end wise?

Spec iv thought of so far, so if there is anything you think i should change, let me know...
-KMS
-KMS DTH throttle bodies
-QEP big valve head
-Catcams 734's??
-Followers, retainers, springs
-Piper 4-1
-Supersprint race exhaust

What other things should i change when building the engine?
Headgasket..
Sump gasket..
Any timing components?
Seals?
Any info very much appreciated...

bigger injectors

4th August 2008, 15:07

You'll need forged pistons to run 734's

And as your going for quite a big spec (the 734's made 189bhp on the dyno with G's engine) you'll want to rebuild the engine completely imo

I can get you decent prices on a complete kit which basically cover's all the seals etc;

Gasket KIT
Head bolts
Bottom end seal kit
Cambelt kit (inc idler & pully)
Heavy duty big end and main bearings
Thrust bearings
Water pump

4th August 2008, 15:21

Bigger injectors come with the bodies that im after i think..
When you say rebuild the engine completely, does that consist of the list you made josh? or do you mean rods etc too?
will they be ok or should i change them?

4th August 2008, 15:52

also, sorry for sounding daft..what are lifters? hyraulic/solid?
where are they in the engine, what do they do? should i go for solids?
cheers

4th August 2008, 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex_3589

also, sorry for sounding daft..what are lifters? hyraulic/solid?
where are they in the engine, what do they do? should i go for solids?
cheers

Here's some reading for you. This is a link to help you understand what tappets / lifters are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tappet

Here's another link which specifically explains what hydrolic lifters are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_lifters

Tappets sit between the cam lobes and the valve / valve stems. As the pear shaped cam lobe rotates, it applies sideways and downward force on the tappet. If the tappet wasn't there, this sideways force would be enough to bend the valve stem, hence the tappet is there is make sure only downward direction force is applied to the valve stem.

Hydraulic lifters were introduced to create zero valve clearance. The cool thing about these is that you don't have to leave any room for heat expansion and general wear, (which you have to do with solids) and they should be quieter too. Once oil fills into them, they will act just like a solid lifter as you cannot compress liquids...

4th August 2008, 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex_3589

Bigger injectors come with the bodies that im after i think..
When you say rebuild the engine completely, does that consist of the list you made josh? or do you mean rods etc too?
will they be ok or should i change them?

No bigger injectors wont come with the boddies, you will need to buy them when using 734's for sure.

By rebuilding the engine i mean replacing all the stuff i mentioned above. Rod's should be fine, but as i said you'll need to get forged pistons with larger valves and 734's.

I can recommend the woosner pistons that i have on mine, dont pass any oil and seem to give a decent amount of extra low down torque combined with the boddies. With running high comp pistons its recommended you use a higher RON but you'd want to look after the engine anyway after spending a shite load on it

GMC normally stock these on the shelf and they are £500 iirc in any size inc the pins and shiz you need

4th August 2008, 17:42

You know it makes sense Lol

4th August 2008, 18:55

What pistons are they above? Block been decked/skimmed? No issues with valve clearence i take it looking at those

4th August 2008, 19:50

if you dont intend on blowing it up and are going track use them a baffled sump is a good idea imo.

Catcams 734s run on hydros, if you run wilder cams you have to run solids.

an engine rebuild with qep not including parts is £800 + vat iirc.

4th August 2008, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsaxo

You'll need forged pistons to run 734's

And as your going for quite a big spec (the 734's made 189bhp on the dyno with G's engine) you'll want to rebuild the engine completely imo

I can get you decent prices on a complete kit which basically cover's all the seals etc;

Gasket KIT
Head bolts
Bottom end seal kit
Cambelt kit (inc idler & pully)
Heavy duty big end and main bearings
Thrust bearings
Water pump

but george has the qep puma head yeah?

so a normal big valve head with 734 wouldnt see that much ya?

and well done for seeing sence alex

4th August 2008, 20:35

the qep head now is the qep/puma head elliot.

there are different stages of it for different cam profiles though as far as im aware.

the 734s they have a spec for the head.

4th August 2008, 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

the qep head now is the qep/puma head elliot.

there are different stages of it for different cam profiles though as far as im aware.

the 734s they have a spec for the head.

ah ok

and how much dollar is it for the head for the 734s?

what gains would you think with wilder cams and solids? 200?

4th August 2008, 20:47

200 is achievable but then you risk ending up with a longmans type engine that is very peaky and imo not as good for use on the road due to where it makes its power and the narrowness of the powerband.

people allways worry about cock size figures and not how well it performs

irc the head is £800 + vat but not 100% sure on that price.

4th August 2008, 21:20

Quote:

people allways worry about cock size figures and not how well it performs

dont worry i know lol

yes you end up going into quaiffe gearset terrotory

4th August 2008, 21:23

elliot how many times have i told you its quaife with one F lol

qep/puma are doing good work bouncing each others knowlege about, have done for a while its just now its more common knowlege.

4th August 2008, 21:28

you know what i thought you were gonna say that, then i thought know he wont, and you did you bell

5th August 2008, 02:48

thanks for all the replies so far...
i want to have all the engine spec done in the next few weeks, then il get round to buying all the parts and having the engine built.
Anyone know much about the KMS bodies? good reviews?

5th August 2008, 08:56

The KMS bodies are very good once the casting is cleaned up by QEP
With such an extensive build its worth getting the spec right. Dont mix and match ideas and parts from different builds/places. QEP will be able to advise, supply and build the right engine for you, as will a number of other companies.

5th August 2008, 09:25

Get bottom end blueprinted, rebuilt with ARP rod bolts and new bearings.

5th August 2008, 10:01

blueprinting is pointless on a road car. If he was running in saxmax or something then it might be useful to spend lots of money to get one or two hp extra over rivals

5th August 2008, 10:36

seeing as though ive just done this..

j4 block, oversided to 1649cc, wossner high comp pistons with cutouts
shot peened standard rods
standard crank
full bottom end rebuild
baffled sump
c2 vts head
catcam springs and retainers
catcam 737's (c2 fitment = part number 1322715)
sandy brown inlet manifold
jenvey dcoe 45mm bodies + 45mm trumpets
raceland manifold
carworx exhaust

estimated power at fly - 179bhp
estimated torque at fly - 140.8 lbft

i was quoted 1k + VAT for a QEP b/v head. i really couldnt justify the cost for what equated to 10bhp and 4 lbft

5th August 2008, 10:37

5th August 2008, 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

blueprinting is pointless on a road car. If he was running in saxmax or something then it might be useful to spend lots of money to get one or two hp extra over rivals

Sorry my mistake, thought it was a race engine haha.

5th August 2008, 11:51

im a bit sketchy about the 1k for a big valve head but qep said that it ups the power a bit but it makes the car a lot easier to drive so looks like il have to go for it.
is there anything i should do to the standard rods?
also, how much are things like arp bolts, bottom end bearings etc?

5th August 2008, 11:53

ask jp saxo for the rebuild kit, thats where i brought my bits from - however i would recommend getting genuine cam seals.

my car's fine to drive as it is. i personally would not bother with the b/v head for this spec, but whether you want to do the same is up to you.

if you like i can list all the prices against the list above?

5th August 2008, 11:59

yea that would be a big help mate, thank you.
if i can get away with using a standard head il do that.its a lot of money...

5th August 2008, 12:09

j4 block, oversided to 1649cc - got this second hand but boring shouldnt be much more than 100 quid
wossner high comp pistons with cutouts - QEP or GMC, i got as part of a deal
shot peened standard rods - just use standards - you're not gonna be revving the tits off it
standard crank - again, standard is fine
full bottom end rebuild - talk to jpsaxo about these
baffled sump - £200 ish
c2 vts head - can pick up a full engine for £75 quid
catcam springs and retainers - 358.80 + VAT
catcam 737's (c2 fitment = part number 1322715) - 361.59 + VAT
sandy brown inlet manifold - 250
jenvey dcoe 45mm bodies + 45mm trumpets - i paid 500 a few years back, but kam can get these in. i used clio 182 injectors which cost 60 quid.
got a quote from qep for KMS bodies, trumpets, fuel rails, throttle linkage 900 + VAT
raceland manifold - 120 odd
carworx exhaust - use whichever one you want

then there's standalone - im running KMS
mapping - 350 quid.

then there's all the little bits -
manifold wrap - 40 quid
oil cooler, another 120 quid or so
grp n engine mounts - 200 odd quid.
catch tank - 70 quid inc hoses.
oil - 50 quid
coolant
spark plugs
oil filter

5th August 2008, 12:12

thanks mate.
better start putting the hours in at work then.
il be using my supersprint race exhaust, not sure what mani yet.

5th August 2008, 12:13

when you add it all up its a lot of money.

dont think you can do it for cheap, cos you cant lol

5th August 2008, 12:46

yea, il be spending a lot because i want to do it right.
but at the end of the day, i want it to be a road car so it dusnt have to go crazy with power and be driveable.

5th August 2008, 14:18

few more questions;
Will 734's run on standard inlet unmapped if i were to drive somewhere to get the bodies fitted and mapped?
also, with high comp pistons, will the engine run and be driveable unmapped for a short time?

5th August 2008, 14:20

do it once, do it properly. get it trailored to get it mapped if needs be.

bodies arent that hard to get set up, you just need to make sure the inlet is sealed otherwise it will run like a sack of shit

5th August 2008, 14:38

what im thinking of doing is;
get manic motors to drop the vts engine in with the bottom end rebuilt, manifold, exhaust on etc. then drive it to QEP.GMC or hiflow heads to get the head fitted, with cams, bodies etc if they can build it up there so its ready when i get there then it'll have to be mapped.
so was just wondering if its safe/driveable with the high comp pistons in...

5th August 2008, 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjm300

Looks like the power curve from a VTEC engine...

5th August 2008, 16:45

734s innit

5th August 2008, 16:47

5th August 2008, 19:03

Maximum power at just 7000rpm though... ?

5th August 2008, 19:38

he does his calculations by holding the engine at certain load sites (500 rpm increments) and taking the r/r reading at the wheels, then converting it to various calculations used over the years.

peak will be more than that, i need to get it on the rollers and get a guestimated plot from that.

5th August 2008, 21:31

ah gotta love sandys RR printouts.

seen a few debates about them over the years.

on a serious note, qep dont do work on cars there, they just work the engines.

so get the engine built and possibly mapped on the dyno then fit it yourself.

5th August 2008, 21:37

well the proof will be in the pudding i suppose

when i can be arsed to get it rolling roaded

5th August 2008, 22:04

its just the excel sheet that makes me giggle when everyone bangs on for printouts.

I know that 205 hillclimb car he built ran quite nicely.

7th August 2008, 14:05

iv been thinking again and...
im not going to use such a wild cam as i want to run them on standard inlet for a while; reasons being to keep a bit of my money for a holiday with the girlfriend, save a bit on fuel and keep the car quiet for a bit.
so; what cams are most commonly used on standard inlet? i know 708's are popular and give a good gain but is there anything else with maybe a bit more umph that will still work well?
thanks

7th August 2008, 14:18

just use 708s
or buy my tbd engine lol

7th August 2008, 14:24

lol wish i had the money at the minute.
not worth looking at any piper cams or any higher spec cat cams?
as i say, the 708's must be popular for a reason, or maybe the ph3 newmans..

7th August 2008, 14:27

708s bettter price proven to work well.

Im still yet to hear of many who had the newmans in the groupbuy even have them mapped lol.

go higher spec and wont be able to run very well on std inlet init

7th August 2008, 14:32

looks like it'll be the 708's then;
josh' car still got good results when he used them with tb's and im sure it'll be very road friendly and easy to drive so i should be happy with that when the time comes around.

7th August 2008, 19:11

I've got PH3's in my stock-ish car, mapped up on my Predator.

Since no-one has mentioned them, I just thought I'd mention I run them daily

Andy

7th August 2008, 20:50

you can use a higher spec cam on standard inlet,

also youd need ecu to map

7th August 2008, 21:00

yea, i would be mapping the ecu,
would a big valve head work well with 708's?

7th August 2008, 21:05

so it would be a waste of time if you intend to get a standolone later on?

not worth it for 708s, larger cam required for full gains really

just get you 734s

7th August 2008, 23:16

not even worth it for when i decide to put the tb's on?
if i were to use 708's or ph3's is there anything i should do to the head for a bit more power/better flowing?

7th August 2008, 23:20

wiseco pistons and rings, bored out plus 20, crank lightened and balanced, flywheel lightened and balanced uprated big end bearings and con bolts, 50BHP shot of nos

7th August 2008, 23:22

nos with high comps isnt advisable in many peoples opinions.

TU cranks are very good as standard so dont need lots of money spending doing L+B.

7th August 2008, 23:38

anyone know of running 734 on standard inlet??

id just jump straight to pistons, tb's and 734's. although 708 on boddies give a great spread of power hence why so many people are advised to use them.

7th August 2008, 23:52

i had my heart set on a crazy spec to achieve 190bhp+ but im coming round to the idea of just running 708's with bodies for an every day driver.
high comp pistons.
bottom end rebuild.
708's
kms bodies.
kms or omex.
what shall i do to the head?
cheers

7th August 2008, 23:56

ported and polished, fully gas flowed, piper cams, vernier pulley, double valve springs, valves cut on 3 angles instead of 2 and valves re-ground in

7th August 2008, 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex_3589

i had my heart set on a crazy spec to achieve 190bhp+ but im coming round to the idea of just running 708's with bodies for an every day driver.
high comp pistons.
bottom end rebuild.
708's
kms bodies.
kms or omex.
what shall i do to the head?
cheers

you could use a c2 vts head, but its been proven that big valves dont always mean big power, its all about port shape and combustion chamber shape.
id go with what you said but use 734's instead, wont cost you anythingmore as you already specified pisotons and boddies. then get QEP to do you a nice head then you should be well within the 180's id imagine.

8th August 2008, 00:45

a c2 vts head is the same as a saxo vts head there the exact same engine

8th August 2008, 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTSJONNY

a c2 vts head is the same as a saxo vts head there the exact same engine

its not, the c2 hea has 2mm larger inlet valves.....

8th August 2008, 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTSJONNY

a c2 vts head is the same as a saxo vts head there the exact same engine

no they are not, as i have said to you allready.

8th August 2008, 13:31

been on the phone to qep about kms ecu,
they said they give you another engine loom so that it fits with the kms.
would this engine loom be all wired up to the kms so that it would just have to be plugged into the engine then run it on a base map till i take it to gmc or similar?

8th August 2008, 13:34

its an adaptor loom.

8th August 2008, 13:44

what does the adaptor loom do?

8th August 2008, 13:52

adapts the saxo ecu plug from the cars loom to fit the GHeyMS ecu.

8th August 2008, 14:14

this is so complicated

lol
i just want to understand eveything before i go ahead and do it.
think i might get a vts engine, build the bottom end up,get manic motors to put the cams in and sort the timing. drive it up to gmc, leave it with them to fit the bodies and kms and stay in scotland for a few days with the girlfriend then drive it back with all the powwwaaa!!!!

8th August 2008, 14:34

is there any way to change from 3 plug ecu to single plug?
would make life so much easier or do you then have to change interior looms etc?
cheers

9th August 2008, 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex_3589

is there any way to change from 3 plug ecu to single plug?
would make life so much easier or do you then have to change interior looms etc?
cheers

Yeah re-wire the whole car Lol