VTS turbo or VTR turbo?

17th August 2008, 17:12

Hi,
I am not a new member of this forum as i used to own a VTR a few years back, but have since gone on to bigger and (should i say it!? - better) things. However, i now have a sensible car (320D BMW) and while that is brilliant for commuting up the motorway for work every day, it doesnt have the same sort of fun factor the VTR gave me when i had it. Therefore i am looking to purchase a saxo as a project car and only use it at the weekends for a bit of fun.
However, when i say 'project car' i mean engine wise, not appearance wise. I want to buy a saxo and then rebuild the engine to include a turbo. Now... i know the main difference between the vts and vtr is 8v / 16v and i know the vts is quicker, but when introducing a turbo, what do people think is the best engine to accommodate a turbo? The VTR, to my knowledge is more torquey than the VTS, which gains all its power from revving).

Due to the VTS being a more powerful lump, i would naturally think the VTS would benefit more from a turbo, but if i think about it mechanically / technically, i am starting to wonder which is best. Can anyone advise?

17th August 2008, 17:28

vts is the far superior engine..

and produces more torque than a vtr.

17th August 2008, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

vts is the far superior engine..

and produces more torque than a vtr.

Yes, i agree, far superior, but how do they like Turbos compared to the VTR? I have just been trying to find other threads on here about VTS turbos and the only thing i could find was a thread saying only cam a VTS as not many VTS's run very well with turbo's. I am not sure - i would be happy with a VTR, but dont really want to go out and throw all my money into a VTR to find out that a VTS would run better, or vice versa!

Also, does anyone know if a VTS engine can be dropped into a VTR car without replacing looms etc?

17th August 2008, 17:42

when you say run better what do you mean? A turbo'd VTS will make more power if thats what you mean

Poor running is an indication of a bad job not reflective on the VTR / VTS engines themselves

17th August 2008, 17:44

they would run both exactly the same depending on, state of tune, mileage, boost, management, who mapped the car, how you treat the car.

in no way is the vtr engine better that a 16v..imo.
probably only better in fuel maybe, but then it still determined how its mapped.

you want "proper" management, low compression pistons, good intercooler to keep charge temp down, and someone who knows their shit the do the mapping. and the you will have a reliable car.

17th August 2008, 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

when you say run better what do you mean? A turbo'd VTS will make more power if thats what you mean

Poor running is an indication of a bad job not reflective on the VTR / VTS engines themselves

Of course the quality of the job is fundamental, but taking these factors out a and thinking specifically about the engine itself, which one will give the "biggest bang for buck" by adding a turbo? I imagine i am correct in thinking the VTS is going to be alot easier to get extra power from?

17th August 2008, 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

they would run both exactly the same depending on, state of tune, mileage, boost, management, who mapped the car, how you treat the car.

in no way is the vtr engine better that a 16v..imo.
probably only better in fuel maybe, but then it still determined how its mapped.

you want "proper" management, low compression pistons, good intercooler to keep charge temp down, and someone who knows their shit the do the mapping. and the you will have a reliable car.

Well, i am planning to get the car (either a runner or non-runner) and keep it in my garage for 2 or 3 years maybe whilst i work on it. I am by no means a car mechanic and will be going into this project almost completely blind (apart from using common sense and basic knowledge or engines and turbos). Most people will probably be thinking this is not advisable, but i want this to be something i have done, and something that at the end of it i can say I did. Obviously i may need specialist stuff made / carried out which i will outsource to specialists, and i also know a few mechanics and i know someone who has done turbo conversions on saxo engines. I am sure i will be on here looking for alot of help, but before i get to that stage, i need to find a suitable car and i am not looking to pay more than £700 for it tops. So, it sounds like i am looking for a VTS as opposed to a VTR? Unless a VTS engine will go in a VTR car without much re-work / mods?

17th August 2008, 17:54

full credit to you for having a go though mate, i would say though on the important things dont skimp and save because it will bite you in th ass.

always ask on here or search for the best products to use in the conversion.

people to speak to

dp engineering
gmc motorsport
carworx
pug 1 off
spoox

are just a few companys who could help you out but i would only recomend a couple of these from myself.

17th August 2008, 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

full credit to you for having a go though mate, i would say though on the important things dont skimp and save because it will bite you in th ass.

always ask on here or search for the best products to use in the conversion.

people to speak to

dp engineering
gmc motorsport
carworx
pug 1 off
spoox

are just a few companys who could help you out but i would only recomend a couple of these from myself.

Cheers mate for the advice. The reason i said it will be sat up for about 2-3 years is because it will be my hobby, so not a full time job, and also, finances will be limited to as and when i have cash floating round - also, as you say, i only want the best parts, so it may take time searching for bargains etc.

I am looking for Pug 106 GTi's as well as VTS's, dont really mind which one i buy as they are the same engine, although i like the looks of VTS's better.

17th August 2008, 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by lcheater

Of course the quality of the job is fundamental, but taking these factors out a and thinking specifically about the engine itself, which one will give the "biggest bang for buck" by adding a turbo? I imagine i am correct in thinking the VTS is going to be alot easier to get extra power from?

the 1.6 16v engine as I posted above

I'd advise though that before you get stuck in its worth doing some serious reading on the subject

Have a look at this one. Will explain in great detail what makes a good turbo engine
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Forced-Induc.../dp/1859606911

17th August 2008, 20:58

i had no intention of fitting a vts engine to my vtr.
i always wanted to stay 8V, but after the fire, the engine was ruined and i was offered a cheap vts engine and box.

to be honest with you, you can still get good power from an 8v vtr turbo.

have a look at the dp engineering site in holland. they are leading the way with boosted cars at the moment.

www.d-pengineering.nl

there are a few really high powered vtrs

but be prepaired to spend a few quid on the engine.

17th August 2008, 20:58

good luck buddy

17th August 2008, 21:08

I'd advise a VTS job too mate, especially as your going for a fun/weekend/track car etc as the VTS engine already has an extra 20bhp to start with + the extra valves and cam its a much better base to start with.

17th August 2008, 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by boz

i had no intention of fitting a vts engine to my vtr.
i always wanted to stay 8V, but after the fire, the engine was ruined and i was offered a cheap vts engine and box.

to be honest with you, you can still get good power from an 8v vtr turbo.

have a look at the dp engineering site in holland. they are leading the way with boosted cars at the moment.

www.d-pengineering.nl

there are a few really high powered vtrs

but be prepaired to spend a few quid on the engine.

its one of my bookmarks
http://www.dp-engineering.nl/EN/

17th August 2008, 22:39

what power you wanting will determine what engine you want

17th August 2008, 22:53

Thanks for all your replies, and making my decision to go for the 1.6 16v (VTS / GTI) engine. I also think i have found a car - found out tonight that my mate is possibly selling his P reg VTS. I think it has already had cams fitted to it, but until he replies to my text i cant be sure. I will update as soon as i know.

18th August 2008, 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

in no way is the vtr engine better that a 16v..imo.

depends on what you want the car for, mine is used for drag racing more than anything else and i prefere the way the torque is alot lower in the rev range compared to the 16v so a better engine for sprints off the line

plus its much more pleasing kicking a 16v arse with 8v's

18th August 2008, 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweeqd

depends on what you want the car for, mine is used for drag racing more than anything else and i prefere the way the torque is alot lower in the rev range compared to the 16v so a better engine for sprints off the line

plus its much more pleasing kicking a 16v arse with 8v's

Ah, now thats what i meant when i originally said the 8v is more torquey and the 16v gets it power from revving. What i meant was what tweeqd has summed up pretty well. The 8v gives torque further down the rev range than the 16v's.

To answer the question of what i want the car for, it certainly isnt top speed as firstly i wouldnt feel safe doing silly speeds in such a small car, and secondly, acceleration isnt illegal, but excessive speed is - so acceleration and mid rolling aceleration is what i am looking for i suppose.

Saying that, it still sounds as though the 16v is a better base to start with, purely becasue it starts out with more power.

I have almost got hold of a T reg VTS. Its going cheap because it has no tax or mot. It failed the MOT due to emissions (its got a straight through system i.e no cat) and there are a couple of other little things which need attention, but no bodywork is required, which is a good thing as i dont wanna have to touch the bodywork. I am hoping to be posting on here later tonight to say i have secured the deal - watch this space...

19th August 2008, 15:08

Unless you're spending a massive amount on it, i think vtr is more than suitable. Both vtr and vts are going to produce good power. A turbo vtr has the potential to produce enough torque to break the MA box with relatively low boost, so if you're in that territory and not going to spend the addeed extra on transmission etc to allow more power is there really any need for the 16v....

19th August 2008, 15:41

Agree with Jason about the gearbox thing..

Trouble with Boosting a car that has been designed and manufactured to be N/A is going to bring a few problems..The MA box's can take power, its torque they and alot of other OE box's struggle with..Put your money into an N/A VTR/S..

Can run reasonably wild power without needing to uprate the box with fancy diffs etc..Although an LSD would be recommended if you go above 160/170bhp whether its N/A or Turbo as you will wheelspin everywhere when turning slightly..

19th August 2008, 15:58

Thanks for your comments again. I have secured the deal on the VTS picking it up tonight. Will post pics when if its still light outside by the time I get it home. I think I am going to have to pay attention to the transmission if I want to put any sort of reasonably amount of power through it. My plan was to pay attention to the whole engine working literally from the bottom up, uprating everything possible as I go. However, this may be easier said than done as far as my wallet is concerned!!!

19th August 2008, 15:59

As i said..anything over 170 BHP..Get a quaiffe ATB diff..

19th August 2008, 18:48

what power you after

19th August 2008, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaRiO89

As i said..anything over 170 BHP..Get a quaiffe ATB diff..

even with standard power get an ATB they are the best mod you can buy for a saxo/106/AX

19th August 2008, 22:20

True, but they aren't essential until you start getting higher power..

19th August 2008, 22:44

Well, i picked the car up tonight. Basically, i got it cheap because it didnt have MOT. The guy i bought it from put it through an MOT hoping it would go through but it didnt. I have the MOT failure sheet and the Advisory Notice. The only failure was emissions because he put it through with no CAT fitted, and the only advisory's were front tyres wearing on the edges, and the driver's seat is loose. Well, thats simple stuff. The other bits are minor things which can be resolved as i go through the project (slipping clutch with hard acceleration, and engine mount needs replacing due to knocking noise coming from the engine).

Out of interest, how much are those quaiffe ATB diff's approximately?

21st August 2008, 13:47

Here are a couple of pics of the car.

21st August 2008, 19:07

looks like a good base for a project mate, as you say all the problems can be sorted while rebuilding it

21st August 2008, 19:14

quaife diff's are around £580 on ebay then you have to send it them to be machined then get the box rebuilt (wit new seals and anything thats worn while you are there)

so will cost around £700-1000

22nd August 2008, 13:08

just though id point out to you, theres a magazine called practicle performance car magazine which is basically based on the sort of project you want to under take. for example they built a 27 litre rover and are building a saab 2.3 turbo mk 1 escort at present : D

anyway, between this month and last month they have done a full guide to turbo chraging a n/a car and basically covers everything!! worth getting!!