300bhp 16v - Component limits?

25th August 2008, 19:15

Hi, I'm planning on gunning for 300bhp on a fairly simple spec turbo'd 16v and was just looking for opinions really.

Planning on running forged rods and pistons on an 8 to 8.5:1 compression ratio. To keep costs down I'm looking at an XS Power turbo kit for a Civic, just having the manifold flange chopped off and one to suit the TU welded on.

The turbo supplied is a T3/4 T40E with a .50 trim, current thinking is the same really as turbo'ing a Honda, keep the turbo fairly large and throw boost at it higher in the rev range when dynamic VE drops... With a set of ARP rod bolts and decent valve springs the rev limit would be raised a tiny piece.

Management would be Megasquirt, I see no point at all in keeping standard management and sigcon/5th injector setups when you can go fully mappable for the same price all in.

Obviously intercooling, oil cooling etc would be taken care of. Would aim to do a BE gearbox conversion eventually. Inlet would be an adapted Swedish style replica inlet designed for a Csworth YB.

What problems do people usually come by when turbo'ing TU's, any known weak points? How many others are running in the ~300bhp region, and, if any, how many of those are 'home built'?

Any thoughts/input/ideas? Cheers

25th August 2008, 20:58

that doenst sound like a sensible 300hp mate. (never even seen a 300hp)

firsty cutting a civic manifold up and welding a new flange on doesnt work, ive never seen it done, im currently producing a turbo kit and its an option me and my associate ddint even consider. get some bends and make your own

secondly, XS power is a pile of shit, three turbos are wank, i have a mate with a 1000hp skyline, bought one of there turbos and it melted when turbo technics were flowing it for him, good job it wasnt on the car, if thats there turbo, id never trust there manifold or other components.

mega squirt is an ok self build home grown system, not really what id want to run 300hp on.

you would prob need a custom inlet with 8 injectors too.

not trying to be nasty but your way of the mark dude.

sorry

25th August 2008, 21:00

300bhp on the cheap = No way.

homegrown saxodaffy iirc has built a set up with quite high power/so has simo.

pm them as they will help out with running issues that they have had to overcome.

not the least gearboxes and driveshafts

25th August 2008, 21:03

Agree with the XS power comments, they are not good really, get what you pay for buddy

25th August 2008, 21:04

the only 1.6 ave seen with 300bhp is a civic 1.6 16v vtec turbo thats running high boost but 300bhp is far too much mate it would just spin and spin cause of the weight ratio

25th August 2008, 21:09

put a civic 1.6 16v vtec engine in the car n turbo it, more chance of gettin 300 bph that way i wouldv though, stick couple o breeze blocks on top o the engine to keep the weight ratio right haha

25th August 2008, 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJjuveVTS

put a civic 1.6 16v vtec engine in the car n turbo it, more chance of gettin 300 bph that way i wouldv though, stick couple o breeze blocks on top o the engine to keep the weight ratio right haha

or spend the money tuning the TU properly rather than fucking about geting everything modified/custom made to have a JC engine in there

25th August 2008, 21:12

haha and fill the boot with sand might only spin in 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th lol

25th August 2008, 21:25

Funny, the Vauxhall scene has been cutting 200SX manifolds up for 300+bhp for years before better alternatives were available.

Funny as well that the big power Corsa/Nova/Tigra boys have got on OK with traction.

8 Injectors for 300bhp? And I'M way off the mark? Why would you not consider Megasquirt for ~300bhp (Technical answer please, not just "because it's not a proven name"), it controls fuel and spark as any ECU does, it's the mapping that makes the difference.

25th August 2008, 21:29

big difference with corsa novas its usually 2.0l lumps that go in and you can get limited slip diffs for them and they do have big traction problems i had a 2.0l nova was great in a straight line shit on the corners and they do spin and spin

1.6 16v saxo 300bhp = no chance pal wake up

25th August 2008, 21:31

if your wanting that much power cheap you must be bodgin the job aswell

25th August 2008, 21:45

What tyres, what suspension, what pressures? You can get diffs for them... And you can't for any other car? Suggestion... Come off the power a bit, you'll find it helps.

I've been in and seen various XE and LET'd cars, and as long as you're not an absolute mongoloid they seem fine, as proven by countless cars at TOTB etc etc.

Bodging the job, in what way? Because I don't want to pay a tuner twice the amount that's really needed?

The way I'm seeing it, rebuild with all new bearings, oil spray jets to keep the pistons cool, a decent set of forged pistons and rods, headwork with decent bits and I see no reason why (Internally) it wont take 300bhp, so long as it's mapped properly and doesn't det its tits off and start melting things.

But that's in my view, hence I started the thread - I wanted to see what parts would fail through power and not revs. I highly doubt the crank would give up through power/torque, same with the forged rods and pistons, not a load of shite about traction problems tbh

25th August 2008, 21:51

standard TU cranks are used to good effect on some veryy high revving engines.

As you will know the revs are where wear tends to be the problem in some applications so i shouldnt expect a problem with the crank due to a turbo engine/cam set up not revving so highly as a peaky NA engine.

As per other post i recommend pming saxodaffy/simo as they both have home built turbo set ups.

25th August 2008, 21:53

16v citreon engines are like cheese there really soft if your goin to turbo it do it right and spend money or things will fail but there is no chance ul get 300bhp tho

ul need to upgrade the bearings at the bottom end, arp bolts, forged rods, pistons steel head gasket bored out so ur looking at about £2000 already at least

top end-cams, lifters, double valve springs,ported and polished uprted inlet, throttle bodys, exhaust bigger valve so about another £2500 - £3000 so its no cheap mate if you try to get that much power cheap it will have major problems not worth the hassle tbh

25th August 2008, 21:56

Spend mony get yourself a decent set--up Go CRAZY!!!!!!! engine in the boot! lol Goodluck i suppose

25th August 2008, 21:56

Spend some more money on a proper mani like a dp one ment for the tu engine..

300@ fly has been done few times so has 300@wheels..

Traction is a problem thats whey john at gmc is using gems (i think) and that controls boost delivery through some other bits of trickery and thats with a s/c.

25th August 2008, 21:59

Vts johnny Thats not all true mate.

Wont need steal hg also no need to bore out or rods since it wont be running high rpm..
Bodies will also be more of a hinder than advantage due to the on off throttle..

25th August 2008, 22:00

Cheers Ryan, will shoot a couple of PM's off... Daffy's looks a good effort

Jonny, why would it need throttle bodies? They're barely worth buggering about with on turbo engines, nice thing to have sure, but of NO real benefit as far as peak power's concerned. As for 'boring', I'd rather keep the cylinder walls as chunky as possible thanks, if I wanted some extra displacement I'd stroke it

dboy, was looking at the dp ones, definitely look good. Think I'll carry on researching, heard loads of good stuff about XS Power, some of it from Stav @ Redline Mag... To be fair you hear loads of shit from people that have no experience of the bits first hand, rather take testimonials from those that have

25th August 2008, 22:05

a would still prefre to enlarge the throttle body a have done alot of engine convertions mainly on civics and novas/corsas but from experience going mental with power isnint as good as people make it out to be uness your upgrading the diff, gearbox shafts etc

25th August 2008, 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTSJONNY

16v citreon engines are like cheese there really soft if your goin to turbo it do it right and spend money or things will fail but there is no chance ul get 300bhp tho

ul need to upgrade the bearings at the bottom end, arp bolts, forged rods, pistons steel head gasket bored out so ur looking at about £2000 already at least

top end-cams, lifters, double valve springs,ported and polished uprted inlet, throttle bodys, exhaust bigger valve so about another £2500 - £3000 so its no cheap mate if you try to get that much power cheap it will have major problems not worth the hassle tbh

you really really need to not post stuff which is utter nonsense in all seriousness.

TUs are not weak engines, the main problem with the engine set up is the MA box they tend to run with, the diffs dont like alot of power, and the BE set up is stronger and has better ratios in many peoples opinions.

Also you dont need TBs to have big power boosted, if anything it will cause more problems.

The c2 metal inlet iirc was what was on andyLs supercharged gmc built wngine that was a monster in its day.

25th August 2008, 22:05

300bhp at the flywheel is perfectly do-able. Theres 4 i know off at the moment that are touching 300bhp at the wheels.

Beans, if i was you, i would spend the most money on a DP engineering Manifold/wastegate/turbo and a decent turbo. I know its a shit load in one go but i would rather spend alot once than cut costs and end up replacing parts time and time again.

If your revs arnt going much over 7800rpm, standard ballanced rods would be fine with decent fixings. Theres a chap running a 240bhp atw tu lump that revs to 7800 and he has standard rods and he has never had a problem.

Just rebuild the bottom end with some low comps, rebuild a jp4 head with some 708s, 440 injectors, DP manifold and turbo, nice fat intercooler, lots of boost pressure and a decent map should see 300bhp at the fly easily.

25th August 2008, 22:06

theres a lot of nonesense in this thread...

there is a bloke called colin on 106 owners, he has a gti with gt28r, pistons, standalone i/cooler and all the other little bits and bobs, hes maped it hiself and uses it everday with a ma gearbox with quaife diff and that has just produced 338bhp@flywheel.

25th August 2008, 22:08

up there

16v citreon engines are like cheese trust me an 8v is stronger

25th August 2008, 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTSJONNY

up there

16v citreon engines are like cheese trust me an 8v is stronger

Which is why ive rarely seen a tuned 16v fail in 5 years in the scene, unless the owner is a complete mong and doesnt check oil or rags it from cold.

25th August 2008, 22:12

id sooner have any jap engine over a French one. RYAN

25th August 2008, 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by don55

id sooner have any jap engine over a French one. RYAN

not for the money of converting it i wouldnt brad.

Easy to make a TU bullet proof for less than the cost of fucking about dropping a vtec in imo.

25th August 2008, 22:16

not saying that, jsut if i was building a car from scratch id use a jap engine.

i know conveting would cost more

25th August 2008, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by don55

not saying that, jsut if i was building a car from scratch id use a jap engine.

i know conveting would cost more

and my post was because someone said to drop a vtec engine in.

TUs are good engines, alot of shite posted about them imo being crap.

25th August 2008, 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTSJONNY

up there

16v citreon engines are like cheese trust me an 8v is stronger

Why do you say that? its the same block...

My car ran 190@ wheels with totally standard pistons and rods for a long time..
only reason i changed to forged rods and pistons was i had the cash.. Oh and wanted more power./

25th August 2008, 22:22

Anyone heard of a TU block failing that wasnt down to poor mapping/afr?

25th August 2008, 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTSJONNY

up there

16v citreon engines are like cheese trust me an 8v is stronger

why is the 8v stronger?

like ryan, every engine that ive heard have problems is 90% due to the owners. there any more blown tu's out there than you think, i thought i knew most of them out there in the uk but when i went to york this weekend there was a vts turbo there id i didnt recognise it.

25th August 2008, 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by VtsTom

Anyone heard of a TU block failing that wasnt down to poor mapping/afr?

more to the point anyone seen a post from vtsjonny in here thats not complete pisch

25th August 2008, 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

when i went to york this weekend there was a vts turbo there id i didnt recognise it.

alot of people have them for toys now who have big knowlege and big money.

and want a play thing but dont have time to spend on forums/cant be arsed lol.

25th August 2008, 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

alot of people have them for toys now who have big knowlege and big money.

and want a play thing but dont have time to spend on forums/cant be arsed lol.

i know what you mean mate, i often go t a lot of hill climbs and you see som mental cars, and you alwya wonder why you dont hear of them on here..the answer is its some old bloke who after some weekend fun like you say.

25th August 2008, 22:31

Theres loads of lads i know with proper mental spec cars that have never heard of owners club forums, they have no interest in showing them on the net either.

Its nice to come on sites like this to pick peoples brains who have actualy done what your thinking about doing.

25th August 2008, 22:31

either way you look at it - big pwr = big money , if you build it cheaply, will cost you more in the long run re building the thing! tu engines are built proof (with in reason) hense why so many ppl mod them, but 300 bhp front drive = a car that just doesnt go round corners ! and you will use gearboxes aplenty! unless spending more money again! be3 boxes are slightly stronger but it costs more money to convert, gmc's saxo was running 300 on a ma box, tam runs a ma box, why - cost. no easy way!

25th August 2008, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by VtsTom

Anyone heard of a TU block failing that wasnt down to poor mapping/afr?

used to be a good few letting go but that was with them running mf2 sidcon or very high revs on oe rods.

Andy L's went due to over use of water injection, My mates sc 106 let go due to him being a tard and did not set the bottom end bolts..

Alot do spin bearings but thats down to lack of a sump baffel and hard track use..

25th August 2008, 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by katiescar

either way you look at it - big pwr = big money , if you build it cheaply, will cost you more in the long run re building the thing! tu engines are built proof (with in reason) hense why so many ppl mod them, but 300 bhp front drive = a car that just doesnt go round corners ! and you will use gearboxes aplenty! unless spending more money again! be3 boxes are slightly stronger but it costs more money to convert, gmc's saxo was running 300 on a ma box, tam runs a ma box, why - cost. no easy way!

yes but has tams box failed?

also a 300bhp will handle as good as a normal powered car.. driver input has more to do with it than power.

25th August 2008, 22:37

hewland seq box plus paddle shift, plate diff, shafts, display etc etc 11k
sadev 5 spd seq box plate diff, shafts, display etc etc 7k
sadev 6 psd seq box plate diff, shafts, display etc etc 8k+

and here's a catch , sadev would frown if you told then you were running 300 atw, as they arent built to take that pwr! one thing having it - another using it! lol

25th August 2008, 22:39

driver input, your right what im saying is there is no point having a massive powered engine if every thing else isnt up to the same std!

25th August 2008, 22:41

but look how many evo's etc tam has kept up with and some times overtaken! and he was the first to say that didnt want anymore pwr because of the gearbox! just saying there is no cheap way of doing it!

25th August 2008, 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by VtsTom

300bhp at the flywheel is perfectly do-able. Theres 4 i know off at the moment that are touching 300bhp at the wheels.

Beans, if i was you, i would spend the most money on a DP engineering Manifold/wastegate/turbo and a decent turbo. I know its a shit load in one go but i would rather spend alot once than cut costs and end up replacing parts time and time again.

If your revs arnt going much over 7800rpm, standard ballanced rods would be fine with decent fixings. Theres a chap running a 240bhp atw tu lump that revs to 7800 and he has standard rods and he has never had a problem.

Just rebuild the bottom end with some low comps, rebuild a jp4 head with some 708s, 440 injectors, DP manifold and turbo, nice fat intercooler, lots of boost pressure and a decent map should see 300bhp at the fly easily.

Makes perfect sense, For the sake of an extra grand or so may as well go with the DP manifold and a decent turbo. Was wondering about the rods, but when you can pick a set up for £250 or so, it seems rude not to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

theres a lot of nonesense in this thread...

there is a bloke called colin on 106 owners, he has a gti with gt28r, pistons, standalone i/cooler and all the other little bits and bobs, hes maped it hiself and uses it everday with a ma gearbox with quaife diff and that has just produced 338bhp@flywheel.

Cheers, will have to look that one up, sounds exactly what I'm looking for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VtsTom

Anyone heard of a TU block failing that wasnt down to poor mapping/afr?

Exactly why I started the thread, I'm sure (Almost enough to put money on it) that a decently built engine will take 300bhp all day long so long as it's running a decent AFR and isn't detting its tits off.

Generally just looking in to doing it myself at the moment because I REALLY fail to see why 90% of the people in the scene refuse to believe you can get decent power on a sensible budget compared to paying a tuner to do all the work. It's success stories like the ones you and Danny mentioned that prove it can be done, and tbh I'd like to build one as a two fingers up to the "Write Spoox/Cituning/etc a blank cheque and they can do it" way of thinking.

25th August 2008, 22:44

i know what your saying, tam was thinking about running more power to see if the box would hold, no one has yet to prove an ma box is inferior if it has a diff in etc.. sean/colin/jules/tam/steve/daffy/deeboy ar all running over 200@wheels without major gearbox issues. obviously if you want to get teh nest step up like you sy its going to cost big ££££

25th August 2008, 22:44

if buying rods cheap be very careful as alot need to have extra machineine to fit right.

25th August 2008, 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beans

t "Write Spoox/Cituning/etc a blank cheque and they can do it".

Then Have to take it to gmc to get done rite like many others

25th August 2008, 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beans

Makes perfect sense, For the sake of an extra grand or so may as well go with the DP manifold and a decent turbo. Was wondering about the rods, but when you can pick a set up for £250 or so, it seems rude not to.

Cheers, will have to look that one up, sounds exactly what I'm looking for.

Exactly why I started the thread, I'm sure (Almost enough to put money on it) that a decently built engine will take 300bhp all day long so long as it's running a decent AFR and isn't detting its tits off.

Generally just looking in to doing it myself at the moment because I REALLY fail to see why 90% of the people in the scene refuse to believe you can get decent power on a sensible budget compared to paying a tuner to do all the work. It's success stories like the ones you and Danny mentioned that prove it can be done, and tbh I'd like to build one as a two fingers up to the "Write Spoox/Cituning/etc a blank cheque and they can do it" way of thinking.

just make sure you research and read many books on charging etc and you will be alright, colin who i mentioned is a tuner/mapper by proffesion so maybe a bad example. shaun on 106owners has done the same but in his garage and with a specific budget in min and he made 25*bhp on gt25 etc.

25th August 2008, 22:47

Goes without saying mate, I measure EVERYTHING as it is, worth spending some more time making sure tollerences are right. Package I'm looking at it the PEC one on eBay, heard some bad press about them but it all turned out to be user error as far as I could make out regarding little end sizes. Know Dave that works there from his BBPT and Vauxhall days so should be OK

25th August 2008, 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dboyvts

Then Have to take it to gmc to get done rite like many others

lol i was thinking exactly the same.

25th August 2008, 22:48

we have had this conversation with gmc and various ppl as were looking at a be3 conversion, but that box still has the shaft/spline weakness the same as the ma, just slighly better, in the end we are going for a gripper s/c dog box and diff because pound for pound better value and they are very strong boxes!!!

25th August 2008, 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

just make sure you research and read many books on charging etc and you will be alright, colin who i mentioned is a tuner/mapper by proffesion so maybe a bad example. shaun on 106owners has done the same but in his garage and with a specific budget in min and he made 25*bhp on gt25 etc.

Been researching for the last few years to be honest mate, and can setup/map Megasquirt to a point. Been following Shaun's for a while and hes done well

25th August 2008, 22:51

Katie how much ££ for that and do you know how much bhp torque can it take

25th August 2008, 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by katiescar

we have had this conversation with gmc and various ppl as were looking at a be3 conversion, but that box still has the shaft/spline weakness the same as the ma, just slighly better, in the end we are going for a gripper s/c dog box and diff because pound for pound better value and they are very strong boxes!!!

thats what i intend on using as its a very good setup, we use the gripper box's on teh "drift" cars at work, as they are super aggressive and good for sliding (rwd)

25th August 2008, 22:56

depends what your having done ie casing ground out to take bigger diff etc, 4k ball park, not sure what torque it would take but then that depends on the rato/fd set up that you are going for.

25th August 2008, 22:58

we were advised by ppl how run 106's in various forms of motorsport with fairly high pwr about this set up, we also know a cpl of ppl who use the quaiffe, ( and both of them of had major problems ) - so gripper it will be!

25th August 2008, 23:00

What problems were listed with the Quaife diff?

If using the ATB they come with a lifetime warranty,

25th August 2008, 23:03

I would honestly sit down and think right 300bhp what do i need for it work out the cost for it then work slowly towards it gets bits every month to spread cost. I know my mate shaun with the cherry red gti turbo must have spent 5k+ to get 217bhp atw.

If you can do lots yourself then you will save a fair bit, have a word with 106turbo and shaun 106 gti over on 106oc both building cars now similar to what you want. Otherwise seek the supercharged lads to get rough idea to

25th August 2008, 23:04

this was 2 yrs ago ,shredding gears then they bought out the new coating, quaiffe replaced them- but thats not the point. they might be ok now, but even quaiffe have brought out a new kit for the ma box, and thats 3k!

25th August 2008, 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by katiescar

this was 2 yrs ago ,shredding gears then they bought out the new coating, quaiffe replaced them- but thats not the point. they might be ok now, but even quaiffe have brought out a new kit for the ma box, and thats 3k!

ah ur talking about the gearset not just the diff used.

Id heard a few bad rumours about the quaife gearset aswell, iirc two the pinion shafts failed and the 3k set up should include the ATB diff aswell for 3k

25th August 2008, 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by katiescar

we were advised by ppl how run 106's in various forms of motorsport with fairly high pwr about this set up, we also know a cpl of ppl who use the quaiffe, ( and both of them of had major problems ) - so gripper it will be!

have you spokr to tranx? or try elite gearbox's or x-trac they might do ones that could be more competative on price..

with regards to what torque will destroy a gearbox, the lower in rpm range car makes torque the more stess it causes aswell as how quickly it makes torque, hence turbo cars will brake box's easier than n/a,s/c. decide what tyres are going to be used also as grippier tyres allow more torque transfered to ground.less frippy tyres will spin before big power can damage thigs.

25th August 2008, 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia_Bush

I would honestly sit down and think right 300bhp what do i need for it work out the cost for it then work slowly towards it gets bits every month to spread cost. I know my mate shaun with the cherry red gti turbo must have spent 5k+ to get 217bhp atw.

If you can do lots yourself then you will save a fair bit, have a word with 106turbo and shaun 106 gti over on 106oc both building cars now similar to what you want. Otherwise seek the supercharged lads to get rough idea to

Cheers - Been following them both

Shaun's made 217 with a standard head didn't it? Or at least standard head work if I remember rightly. I'll have to ask him why he didn't go for more, whether he thought that was enough, or whether they thought it wouldn't take any more (Be it high EGT's, IAT's etc) or whether it would ultimately go on to crack 300bhp with some head work and more boost

25th August 2008, 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

have you spokr to tranx? or try elite gearbox's or x-trac they might do ones that could be more competative on price..

.

havent spoke to them yet, will be though - but probs going to stick with what we have been told as their cars are running and being abused, with no problems. its one of the things we will be doing over the winter while building the engine.

25th August 2008, 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by katiescar

havent spoke to them yet, will be though - but probs going to stick with what we have been told as their cars are running and being abused, with no problems. its one of the things we will be doing over the winter while building the engine.

does make good sense tbh.. if there are cars out there doing the same thing and they have had no problems then why change ay

25th August 2008, 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beans

Cheers - Been following them both

Shaun's made 217 with a standard head didn't it? Or at least standard head work if I remember rightly. I'll have to ask him why he didn't go for more, whether he thought that was enough, or whether they thought it wouldn't take any more (Be it high EGT's, IAT's etc) or whether it would ultimately go on to crack 300bhp with some head work and more boost

yes mate thats with standard head and cams....

good thing with boost is that with cams you can gain massive amounts with cams/headwork but with n/a you only gain smaller margins.
i think with flowed big valve head and boost cams shauns could of made around 280-300bhp@fly i guess but now hes going bigger turbo so if he wishes for more later he still has option of cams/head etc.

25th August 2008, 23:24

shaun was only running 10psi iirc to so with 1 bar and some low comps should be good to crack 300.

25th August 2008, 23:29

Indeed - Time spent speccing cams and dialling them in will make or break it IMO, seen time and time again turbo engines gain ~30bhp from dialling the cams in properly. Most notably Vauxhall LET's running an XE inlet cam, dialing those in properly makes a hell of a difference.

Will carry on researching, and hopefully in the next year or so I'll have something to prove a lot of people wrong

26th August 2008, 14:44

go and get yaself a nitrous oxide system. you wont have 300bhp on tap all the time but at least you could experience what it felt like for a whole 10 seconds lol

26th August 2008, 14:58

After such a decent read, I am thoroughly disappointed with the last comment lol

26th August 2008, 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaXo_vtr123

go and get yaself a nitrous oxide system. you wont have 300bhp on tap all the time but at least you could experience what it felt like for a whole 10 seconds lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic

After such a decent read, I am thoroughly disappointed with the last comment lol

aye theres allways some twat posting shite for the sake of it, shame really.

26th August 2008, 15:46

In a bid for 300BHP you may wish to start off with buying other peoples work.

Sean's engine is for sale on www.306gti6.com (cars fo sale, 106 rallye) and would be a god sollution off the bat for 250 odd BHP. You could then PM Sybez on the SSC and go for his BE3 gearbox, flogging the one from the Rallye to fund it.

26th August 2008, 15:48

In terms of megasquirt, I'm not sure that would make cash sense. mapping is the key here and I'd want to speek to Dave Walker or Wayne Schofield from Chipwizards first and then build the electronics around thei mapping suggestions. Both are quite good at not blowing stuff up on the rollers, which will save you cash, rather than saving a couple of hundred on a megasquirt.

26th August 2008, 19:23

300 bhp citreon 16v engine would last 2mins before melting

26th August 2008, 19:25

Where do you get this idea from??

26th August 2008, 19:27

Neil you got somewhere i can read your spec?

26th August 2008, 19:28

the heads are shite on the 16v a ken loads of people hu have fukd them

if any one on this site thinks its possible to get a 300bhp 1.6 citreon engine yous need to have a word with yoursels

26th August 2008, 19:30

Eh think there mite be one in my project thread LOL

26th August 2008, 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by CampDavid

In a bid for 300BHP you may wish to start off with buying other peoples work.

Sean's engine is for sale on www.306gti6.com (cars fo sale, 106 rallye) and would be a god sollution off the bat for 250 odd BHP. You could then PM Sybez on the SSC and go for his BE3 gearbox, flogging the one from the Rallye to fund it.

unfortunalty campdavid seans enigne is sold, and if it wasnt it would be sold to me... i spoke to kev the weekend but i coudnt raise the funds quick enough and someone pipped me to it.

26th August 2008, 19:31

get the gearbox then lol

26th August 2008, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTSJONNY

the heads are shite on the 16v a ken loads of people hu have fukd them

if any one on this site thinks its possible to get a 300bhp 1.6 citreon engine yous need to have a word with yoursels

the heads you have taken appart...

yet are aparently the same on the c2/saxo yes??

Or do you need me 2 rite t lik diz 4 u?

26th August 2008, 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTSJONNY

the heads are shite on the 16v a ken loads of people hu have fukd them

if any one on this site thinks its possible to get a 300bhp 1.6 citreon engine yous need to have a word with yoursels

Not wanting to sound ike a dick but what bit of its already been done do you not get?
The 300@ wheels mark has been done.

AndyL car has been running 285@ wheels for well over 2 years . Over 300@ fly..

26th August 2008, 19:34

the Z20LET Engine (2.0 16v turbo vauxhall engine) with the vxr turbo and spending thousands stuggles to get 300bhp so dont think a 1.6 would

26th August 2008, 19:35

quite a few have lol

26th August 2008, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTSJONNY

the Z20LET Engine (2.0 16v turbo vauxhall engine) with the vxr turbo and spending thousands stuggles to get 300bhp so dont think a 1.6 would

maybe you should try fucking off to a z20let forum then instead of constantly talking utter garbage about TUs on here.

26th August 2008, 19:37

RYANP Sounds like you read up alot thats all you ken

26th August 2008, 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTSJONNY

RYANP Sounds like you read up alot thats all you ken

two TU engined cars on my drive way currently being worked on.. thats a little bit more than reading

26th August 2008, 19:44

its no rocket sience there the simplest engine there is

26th August 2008, 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTSJONNY

its no rocket sience there the simplest engine there is

Na you will find thats a gocart engine..

26th August 2008, 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTSJONNY

its no rocket sience there the simplest engine there is

still a very good engine, used cometitively in motorsport for a long period of time and are not as weak as you try to comment on.

As i said before i find it hard to listen to someone saying it cant be done when it has been done many a time, and someone who thinks that the new c2 head is the same as the old saxo head despite people telling you about the difference in valve sizes.

Perhaps instead of informing people that the engines are wank, or cheese, are soft you might want to either post the advice they have asked for or try not letting the door hit you on the way out.

26th August 2008, 20:04

gmc 's saxo is over 300 atwheels, the only thing slowing that car down is the driver on a dry day, with 6 spd air paddle shift, not a lot gona catch it, bottom end of the tu is the same as a cosworth and look at the pwr they can produce!!! tu engine is pretty built proth up to a point. peugeot took their 106 maxi up to 245bhp in development n/a ! out of a 1.6 with good drivability! some times simple is best!!!

26th August 2008, 20:13

Quote:

RYANP Sounds like you read up alot thats all you ken

Dozy gimp thought that premium p was part of your username lol.

And VTSJONNY how can you even comment you moron, you obv think your a knowitall because you visited a few vauxhall forums, saw that a 2.0litre vauxhall engine cant make 300bhp and you must have decided that it is impossible for any other engine smaller than 2litre to.

26th August 2008, 20:21

hes not even close (vtsjohnny) i know of a xe enigne thats alomost 300bhp n/a.....

26th August 2008, 20:23

ryanp calm down

26th August 2008, 20:30

LOL at what this thread has turned into. VTSJONNY you clearly dnt know what you are talking about. i would do your research before you start spouting utter garbage. Even n/a 16v tu's are being built to over 200bhp. if the vx boys cnt get 300bhp from their engines then they must be doing something wrong,

26th August 2008, 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by reg_the_geza

LOL at what this thread has turned into. VTSJONNY you clearly dnt know what you are talking about. i would do your research before you start spouting utter garbage. Even n/a 16v tu's are being built to over 200bhp. if the vx boys cnt get 300bhp from their engines then they must be doing something wrong,

hey reg, boost on here, boost on ssc.....its already getting addictive lol

26th August 2008, 20:34

in the future i bet im going to wish i went boost... close to 200 NA will have to do though.

26th August 2008, 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

in the future i bet im going to wish i went boost... close to 200 NA will have to do though.

ryan, yu are feeling the same as G but i wouldnt be to disheartened as youre and his will be very very exiting engines. although for outright pace boost is best bang for buck ive learned.

26th August 2008, 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

hey reg, boost on here, boost on ssc.....its already getting addictive lol

tell me about it

26th August 2008, 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

ryan, yu are feeling the same as G but i wouldnt be to disheartened as youre and his will be very very exiting engines. although for outright pace boost is best bang for buck ive learned.

I went NA as i prefer NA... I prefer the power delivery it will give and the noise lol!

alhough that noise will be the end of me due to the fooking noise limits coming down at alot of places

26th August 2008, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

I went NA as i prefer NA... I prefer the power delivery it will give and the noise lol!

alhough that noise will be the end of me due to the fooking noise limits coming down at alot of places

the power delivery cant be that much different in a s/c vts...... the more you rev the faster you go

tbh t/b's do sound the bollocks, but i think i will enjoy the whine from a rotex more tho

26th August 2008, 20:51

lol nah i prefer the howling.

Id deffo go for a SC over a turbo though purely for the wider powerspread (in theory)

26th August 2008, 21:53

oh dear!!

How this thread has degenerated.
The simple fact is with the right amount of money you can get 300bhp.
Question is how much are you prepared to spend?
Rather than chasing power build a good balanced car with a budget in mind.

The bigger picture is that big power needs other areas looking at, from tyres, driveshafts to gearboxes and clutches.

Gearbox choice is often down to mechanical sympathy and how the car is driven. Sitting spinning wheels off the line puts massive stresses on the drivetrain.
Fancy gearboxes like Hewland sound great on paper but for a road car are unrealistic. Yes they are stronger but they need more looking after to keep them in tip top condition. You tend to not have a synchromech either so regular checking of the gear teeth is a must.

Where is the car going to be used? track or road or both? On track big bhp does not make you the fastest. Look at my 205 for example. BHP is going to be a mild 200ish bhp, but i've spent a fortune on suspension to make sure i can use that power to its maximum. Don't be obsessed with big figures to look good amongst the peers

26th August 2008, 22:05

S13 Nissans are 1.8 and they regularly hit 350bhp with the GT28RS turbo and are only 1.8.

My 2litre S14a Nissan is 300bhp and I'm not trying really hard with it.

1.6 8valve RS Turbo's in the 90's were making over 300bhp....

Andy

26th August 2008, 22:12

think he's done one now anyway lol

ffs you see reno 5 turbo's with over 300bhp, and they are 1.4 8v pushrod engines lol dnt think they last long mind LOL

26th August 2008, 22:14

nah he will be back soon, spouting more shite about TUs

26th August 2008, 22:15

on that note rs200's were 1.8 and the e2 was approx 600!
pug 205 t16's were also in the 450 region! and that was 1985/86!

26th August 2008, 22:36

BMW 1987 F1 Turbo

1500cc, 1350bhp in qualifying trim! 130psi boost FTW!

Andy

26th August 2008, 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by reg_the_geza

the power delivery cant be that much different in a s/c vts...... the more you rev the faster you go

tbh t/b's do sound the bollocks, but i think i will enjoy the whine from a rotex more tho

Sorry to disappoint you mate but the rotrex units dont whine but you do get the lovely sound of the "rattle snake"

26th August 2008, 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

oh dear!!

How this thread has degenerated.
The simple fact is with the right amount of money you can get 300bhp.
Question is how much are you prepared to spend?
Rather than chasing power build a good balanced car with a budget in mind.

The bigger picture is that big power needs other areas looking at, from tyres, driveshafts to gearboxes and clutches.

Gearbox choice is often down to mechanical sympathy and how the car is driven. Sitting spinning wheels off the line puts massive stresses on the drivetrain.
Fancy gearboxes like Hewland sound great on paper but for a road car are unrealistic. Yes they are stronger but they need more looking after to keep them in tip top condition. You tend to not have a synchromech either so regular checking of the gear teeth is a must.

Where is the car going to be used? track or road or both? On track big bhp does not make you the fastest. Look at my 205 for example. BHP is going to be a mild 200ish bhp, but i've spent a fortune on suspension to make sure i can use that power to its maximum. Don't be obsessed with big figures to look good amongst the peers

All good points

Budget is whatever I need to spend to be happy with the car tbh, when the car is only going to be used realistically for dual carriageway bursts and the odd trip to Pod I think I'll be happy with Bilstein's and some decent springs.

Power figures don't really bother me, but anything less than 300bhp/tonne I find fairly boring.

Street driving it wouldn't be launched, but I'm sure the Pod trips would lunch it straight away. Rather than spend a fortune on a built Hewland box or similar I'd rather do a BE conversion for the sake of cost mainly, that and for the sake of a bit of extra reliability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthor1

S13 Nissans are 1.8 and they regularly hit 350bhp with the GT28RS turbo and are only 1.8.

My 2litre S14a Nissan is 300bhp and I'm not trying really hard with it.

1.6 8valve RS Turbo's in the 90's were making over 300bhp....

Andy

Cheers for the chat tonight mate, good to meet you and throw some ideas about

Exactly my way of thinking, lesser engines have been making more power fairly reliably for years, there's no logical reason why a TU wouldn't do the same given the right bits (I'm fairly confident too that a lot of specs are overkill for their power), and the only reason there aren't more big power engines about is purely because people believe the rumors and internet chat... Looking about, the people that have decided to go utside the box have been rewarded with decent results.

Also the reason I've been taking info from a LOT of other engines, harder to take info from Hondas because they generally run high CR with a big turbo, by the time the turbo spools up the revs are quite high and the VE is starting to fall so the CR is less of a hinderence. That and the VTEC means wasted boost is just expelled when the cams overlap, something that can't be done too well on a TU. Lots of info to be had from the Renault (Clio 16v hybrid's and R5's) and Ford scene though.

I've nearly got the spec finished, just a case of sourcing parts and hopefully proving it now

27th August 2008, 04:28

I see the VTS/GTI from Greece hasnt been mentioned, I believe 106turbo has been in touch with him and been told its running 400bhp. Cant be a TU engine if 300bhp isnt possible though can it. 8) Then as said there's Colins, and Shauns (which is being rebuilt in the aim for over 300bhp)

Had we better tell all these that its not possible to get over 300bhp, despite their RR readings stating well over, cause VTSJONNY said so?

Off topic, but Beans how come you're never on 106oc anymore, used to see your posts at this kinda time then you just stopped. lol.

27th August 2008, 08:14

lol... Was working nights so on my days off I used to be up at random times (Though to be fair, I'm getting up at 6am these days but still not getting to bed before 2am), not living at home anymore and don't have much net access

27th August 2008, 10:13

Nice to meet you guys last night Dan

I hope you liked seeing the Predator do it's stuff and generally got a feel for what we're up to!! I'm please the Saxo behaved itself, and it even managed a decent idle!! Amazing

Andy

27th August 2008, 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dboyvts

Sorry to disappoint you mate but the rotrex units dont whine but you do get the lovely sound of the "rattle snake"

Yeah I know mate, was just a figure of speech. However I love the pigeon sound they make when you take your foot off the throttle

27th August 2008, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthor1

Nice to meet you guys last night Dan

I hope you liked seeing the Predator do it's stuff and generally got a feel for what we're up to!! I'm please the Saxo behaved itself, and it even managed a decent idle!! Amazing

Andy

Good to see it in person, definitely ranking as the top option at the moment

27th August 2008, 13:22

sent you a pm beans,people on here seem to not have a clue wot they are talking about,register with ssc youl get more constructive answers than from here! ive had a car running similar power will get a chat to you about it mate

27th August 2008, 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MK2SLAG

sent you a pm beans,people on here seem to not have a clue wot they are talking about,register with ssc youl get more constructive answers than from here! ive had a car running similar power will get a chat to you about it mate

id say alot of advice in this thread says that members here do know what they are talking about, bar the odd fucktard.

27th August 2008, 13:39

I wonder if some people are actually meaning their comments as joking and are being taken seriously??

Andy

27th August 2008, 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by MK2SLAG

sent you a pm beans,people on here seem to not have a clue wot they are talking about,register with ssc youl get more constructive answers than from here! ive had a car running similar power will get a chat to you about it mate

I'd post it on both. Both sites have members with good views on this subject. Rallye Reg also a smart move

27th August 2008, 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by CampDavid

I'd post it on both. Both sites have members with good views on this subject. Rallye Reg also a smart move

the fact sandy is now posting on both ssc/rallye reg is great for both sides, especially as him and john dont allways agree it gives some form of constructive debate at times.

27th August 2008, 16:35

Good plan, used to love reading some of Sandy's long posts about various tech stuff

27th August 2008, 17:29

beans - MS has a progressive boost control feature on it iirc to eid traction. iirc it can also utilise traction control. ive seen plenty people use XS manifolds chopped to suit other cars aswell. but wouldnt really trust their turbos. i dont see why you would need 8 injectors either??

27th August 2008, 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTSJONNY

the Z20LET Engine (2.0 16v turbo vauxhall engine) with the vxr turbo and spending thousands stuggles to get 300bhp so dont think a 1.6 would

Eh!? Thats weird because the older C20LET is easily tuned upto 300bhp. My mate built a Nova, added a few parts, Stage 2 chips, T3 etc (very few £££ spent on tuning) and had it RR'd at just over 300bhp. I know RR figures are to be taken with a pinch of salt but the same rollers had cars pulling stock bhp too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthor1

I wonder if some people are actually meaning their comments as joking and are being taken seriously??

Andy

You would hope so but I think they just like talking rhubarb.

As for chopping a Civic manifold are the port spacings anywhere near the same as a TU engine? I've chopped and welded a 200SX manifold for my mates C20LET and had no problems. Guess you've just got watch for clearence issues really.

Good luck with the build- look forward to seeing a progress thread.

27th August 2008, 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTSJONNY

the only 1.6 ave seen with 300bhp is a civic 1.6 16v vtec turbo thats running high boost but 300bhp is far too much mate it would just spin and spin cause of the weight ratio

A mate has over 350bhp in his civic SOHC and it's not that bad for wheelspin.

He's currently Turbo'ing my VTR, and will be making kit's for saxo, at a reasonable price.

27th August 2008, 22:44

rx7 1.3

27th August 2008, 23:30

The RX-7 is a 2.6 actually - sorry mate!

Andy

28th August 2008, 01:27

avoid xspower/ssautochrome

Ive had a flange from them and it was awful quality..

heres some more info too!

http://jdm-insider.com/Blogs/Eric/?p=684

28th August 2008, 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by williamsvts

beans - MS has a progressive boost control feature on it iirc to eid traction. iirc it can also utilise traction control. ive seen plenty people use XS manifolds chopped to suit other cars aswell. but wouldnt really trust their turbos. i dont see why you would need 8 injectors either??

Looked in to the progressive control, definitely worth using. Was wondering whether it was any good, if not I was going to use aftermarket control.

Wasn't planning on using the XS Power turbo or wastegate, was thinking more along the lines of just getting the kit for the intercooler, manifold and some pipework, then selling the turbo and wastegate on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snottybadger

Eh!? Thats weird because the older C20LET is easily tuned upto 300bhp. My mate built a Nova, added a few parts, Stage 2 chips, T3 etc (very few £££ spent on tuning) and had it RR'd at just over 300bhp. I know RR figures are to be taken with a pinch of salt but the same rollers had cars pulling stock bhp too.

You would hope so but I think they just like talking rhubarb.

As for chopping a Civic manifold are the port spacings anywhere near the same as a TU engine? I've chopped and welded a 200SX manifold for my mates C20LET and had no problems. Guess you've just got watch for clearence issues really.

Good luck with the build- look forward to seeing a progress thread.

Sounds about right, a decent LET will push 280 all day long on Phase 2 chips with ease, intercooler, plugs etc.

As far as I can see the port spacings aren't too far out, will get proper measurements next time I'm at the scrappy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanmt

avoid xspower/ssautochrome

Ive had a flange from them and it was awful quality..

heres some more info too!

http://jdm-insider.com/Blogs/Eric/?p=684

How long ago was it mate? They've recently changed a hell of a lot and the quality is surprisingly good from what I've seen and heard.

http://passionford.com/forum/showthr...hlight=xspower

Some good info in there

29th August 2008, 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beans

Looked in to the progressive control, definitely worth using. Was wondering whether it was any good, if not I was going to use aftermarket control.

Wasn't planning on using the XS Power turbo or wastegate, was thinking more along the lines of just getting the kit for the intercooler, manifold and some pipework, then selling the turbo and wastegate on.

Sounds about right, a decent LET will push 280 all day long on Phase 2 chips with ease, intercooler, plugs etc.

As far as I can see the port spacings aren't too far out, will get proper measurements next time I'm at the scrappy

How long ago was it mate? They've recently changed a hell of a lot and the quality is surprisingly good from what I've seen and heard.

http://passionford.com/forum/showthr...hlight=xspower

Some good info in there

You wouldn't need 8 injectors.

A mate makes manifolds i could give you his details should you wish.