forged internals

28th October 2008, 19:34

how much gains would i get from fogred internals? like high comp pistons and rods?

28th October 2008, 22:25

bumpppppp

28th October 2008, 23:29

ebay do them although some people say there not that good

what are you gonna be doing exactly???

28th October 2008, 23:35

well im getting a newman ph3 cam, i have raceland 4-2-1 manifold, supersprint race section coming, supersprint back box, raceland induction kit just looking for further steps

i dont want to go for a vts either!

i thought next step throttle bodies and hi comp pistons and rods

29th October 2008, 01:07

Technically they dont give you more bhp, they are only used so that wilder cams and more advanced cylinder head can be used!

29th October 2008, 01:14

what if i got the cylinder ports widened 2-3mm?

29th October 2008, 01:34

My knowledge of cylinder head tuning is limited mate, your best speaking to a tuning company, gmc motorsport 01671 403606 will probably be able to go into more depth about forged internals and head work mate!

29th October 2008, 15:35

you cant just bore out the head!! Needs to be done on a flow bench.

29th October 2008, 15:41

As far as i'm aware they don't give you any gain themselves.

They just strengthen the engine to allow you to rev it harder?

Are useful for throttle body conversions.

I could be wrong.

29th October 2008, 15:58

well like i said at the moment i was just looking at getting the following...

4-2-1 manifold, supersprint race section, supersprint backbox and a ph3 cam, will be getting it remapped but i was also thinking of getting throttle bodies for it

if i get forged internals what would i be able to rev to? i think the max on the rev counter is 8,000rpm, the std limiter is 6,250rpm (i think)

29th October 2008, 16:04

changing the compression ratio will totally effect the characterisitcs of the engine, and effectively will give power depending on what they are working with.

You can see small gains from them although the main thing for them is giving a higher compression for NA and lower for boost which will see the best gains from that set up

29th October 2008, 16:15

ok cool so if it will make the engine stronger how much would i be able to rev the engine to?

also does it mean that i could turbo it eventually without changing internals or would i have to do them again?

29th October 2008, 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-C

ok cool so if it will make the engine stronger how much would i be able to rev the engine to?

also does it mean that i could turbo it eventually without changing internals or would i have to do them again?

then you would need low comp pistons.

29th October 2008, 16:19

with forged pistons and rods, you should be able to rev to 16k.

but do you need to?

29th October 2008, 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-C

ok cool so if it will make the engine stronger how much would i be able to rev the engine to?

also does it mean that i could turbo it eventually without changing internals or would i have to do them again?

if fitting high comp pistons boost is a BIG no no really.

Need to decide what route you are going from the start as to what pistons you could decide to use.

Only need to rev an engine as far as the powerband has been put for the camshaft of choice.

29th October 2008, 16:29

well im doing a group buy on the ph3's from newman and the powerband is upto 7000 would that be ok to rev to that on std internals?

if i hit low comp pistons now would i lose anything? i am looking at either turbo or sc it near the end of next year

29th October 2008, 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-C

well im doing a group buy on the ph3's from newman and the powerband is upto 7000 would that be ok to rev to that on std internals?

if i hit low comp pistons now would i lose anything? i am looking at either turbo or sc it near the end of next year

ph3's are fine on standard internals. peak power normally around 6800rpm

29th October 2008, 16:35

speak to newmans about a boosted cam. YOu really dont wind a wild high lift cam on a boosted engine that will give blow by etc...

29th October 2008, 16:35

so if i get my ecu remapped to allow 7000rpm it wont damage my engine?

29th October 2008, 16:36

as said, no point in getting the ph3's then going boosted, one or the other

29th October 2008, 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-C

so if i get my ecu remapped to allow 7000rpm it wont damage my engine?

whats the point if you dont know where you are going on the engine, it will cost you 2x as much if you build it one way when you intend on going another way.

29th October 2008, 16:38

can i ask why you dont want to go 16v?

29th October 2008, 16:38

To rev the engine harder u need to rebuild the engine with a balanced crank too plus obviously the pistons and rods, also race bearings will help too!

29th October 2008, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjm300

can i ask why you dont want to go 16v?

i want to be different dont want to do what everyone else does

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

whats the point if you dont know where you are going on the engine, it will cost you 2x as much if you build it one way when you intend on going another way.

so would the newman ph3 be no good on a turbo engine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick_106

To rev the engine harder u need to rebuild the engine with a balanced crank too plus obviously the pistons and rods, also race bearings will help too!

yeah i know about that, thats why i asked about getting new pistons, rods etc if i got a cam with powerband form say 3000-8000 would i be able to rev to that with forged pistons and rods?

29th October 2008, 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-C

i want to be different dont want to do what everyone else does

ah that old chestnut

go over onto the rallyereg and you'll realise that everyones doing it with 8v, so dont think you're being different

most people who tune 8v's soon realise there really is no point, and they should have started off with the extra 30bhp to start with

29th October 2008, 16:48

lol ah well nvm

as i said in the above post if i get a pt13 cam which is 3000-8000 would i be able to do that with forged pistons and rods?

29th October 2008, 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjm300

ah that old chestnut

go over onto the rallyereg and you'll realise that everyones doing it with 8v, so dont think you're being different

most people who tune 8v's soon realise there really is no point, and they should have started off with the extra 30bhp to start with

and the fact people have been tuning saxos for years and 8vs were done to death in about 2002, until people saw 16vs were the better set up aye!

different is a 20v 5 cylinder engine in there

29th October 2008, 16:54

Spend a fortune on internals, cams bodies etc if you want, I shall be going 16v that with breathing mods only will probably make the same power and have cost me a pittance in comparison.

Think of it this way, when you want more power, which you will, your only option is to go boosted. Options for N/A tuning the 16v are far superior and you would have the option of boost still.

+30 bhp for potentially £500 or less is a no brainer really.

29th October 2008, 17:07

basically mate i think you need to figure out what you want
ive seen endless threads by you asking all sorts of questions
i respect the fact you want opinions and want to knw whats best
but saying well im going n/1 then boosted later (thats how it reads) means youll be building the motor twice

forgies basically are stronger and the compression alteration will give gains dependant on the setup (mostly they allow the revs to be upped a bit)

iirc standard internals are ok to around 8.5k

but to decide what pistons (and cam) you need to decide wether your staying n/a or going boost tbh as both setups require completely different internally
bosted cams are quite mild in comparison to n/a cams (even a ph3) and low comp is really required for boost (i have heard of high comp boost but that its a bit hard to get right) and have not actually seen one running personally

but if you start building n/a and decide ou want boost youll need to redo all the work youve just done on the car

and as for the 16v arguement its a time old one tbh
if you wanna stay 8v do it
personally i started with a vts its a bit easier to get decent figures from and give a nice smooth delivery
were as the 8v i found were quite revvy and seemed to run out of revs quite quickly (although im doing an xsi engine atm) i perfer the way the 16v drives

29th October 2008, 17:42

ok so if i want to go boosted which cam and forgies would you say go for?

would it be better getting a ph1 cam if im going for boost?

also can i get boosted pistons and rods but have them fitted while the engine is not boosted? or should i get them fitted once it is boosted?

29th October 2008, 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-C

ok so if i want to go boosted which cam and forgies would you say go for?

would it be better getting a ph1 cam if im going for boost?

also can i get boosted pistons and rods but have them fitted while the engine is not boosted? or should i get them fitted once it is boosted?

boosted pistons are totally different to NA ones.

eg High comp (see the crown)

Low comp

speak to newmans about what boost cam they recommend.

29th October 2008, 17:47

so for forged i want low comp is that right?

could i fit low comp pistons while my car is not boosted so its ready for when i boost it? or would it not work?

29th October 2008, 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-C

so for forged i want low comp is that right?

could i fit low comp pistons while my car is not boosted so its ready for when i boost it? or would it not work?

as i said, boost low comp, NA high comp.

I have heard of people running them although personally id say depends on how long you plan on before going boost. as a lower compression isnt the best really.

29th October 2008, 17:51

hmmm thing is i dont have enough to go fully boosted atm i got money for a cam remap etc and i already made the group buy for the newman cams and also i just bought a raceland 4-2-1 and full supersprint exhaust system

so i think it may be best not to be boosted as it will be a waste on the bits ive just bought otherwise

29th October 2008, 17:54

why buy a 4-2-1 if going boost with turbo you will need a new manifold.

just run a nice cammed engine mapped up for a bit of fun, dont spend huge money on forgies in an 8v unloess you need them with valve clearences etc..

29th October 2008, 17:56

yeah like i said it will be a waste if i want to go boost now

i think i will just have it cammed and maybean xsi box for abit quicker acceleration if i want it

i was looking at a pt13 cam from kent cams and the power band is 3000-8000 i just thought i would HAVE to have forged internals for it to get the full power band

29th October 2008, 18:09

can rev to 8k... they wont last forever though lol.

most cams the power tails off over 7k anyway

29th October 2008, 18:10

would they last say 7-7.5k?