Supercharged VTR builders/owners

17th November 2008, 21:07

Hello, needing a bit of advice on Eatoning my VTR!

Just wondering if anyone knows of any off the shelf pistons and a cam for a VTR that will be force inducted? Or is the standard cam quite good in this respect?

Be needing forged pistons around 9:1 CR I think. I've used Accralites in the past but they've got nothing listed.

Also what scope is there for remapping the ECU to account for a bit of boost? And also, does the plastic inlet manifold self destruct haha?

Cheers,

Toby

17th November 2008, 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by tobyk

Hello, needing a bit of advice on Eatoning my VTR!

Just wondering if anyone knows of any off the shelf pistons and a cam for a VTR that will be force inducted? Or is the standard cam quite good in this respect?

Be needing forged pistons around 9:1 CR I think. I've used Accralites in the past but they've got nothing listed.

Also what scope is there for remapping the ECU to account for a bit of boost? And also, does the plastic inlet manifold self destruct haha?

Cheers,

Toby

accralite do them, you might have to ring up, woessner, wiseco, dp are the most common.and they normally lower the cr by around that.

standard cam is fine, what power you aiming for?

the palstic manifold has been reliable as far as im aware but there is the 106 1.3 rallye inlet that is made of ally.

17th November 2008, 21:15

Try gmc they do them but think you need to use vts pistons and change your rods to oe vts ones to..

17th November 2008, 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

accralite do them, you might have to ring up, woessner, wiseco, dp are the most common.and they normally lower the cr by around that.

standard cam is fine, what power you aiming for?

the palstic manifold has been reliable as far as im aware but there is the 106 1.3 rallye inlet that is made of ally.

I don't really want to set a target for power but 160 bhp on a sensible sized pulley would be nice. I know of a few Polo G40s (1.3) running 180-200 bhp with the M45 but with headwork and quite small pulleys.

How weak are the standard pistons? Have many people just used a spacer plate and had any problems?

Yeah I thought about the 106 Rallye manifold, would probably be a good idea as the larger bore would be beneficial anyway.

Just looked on the GMC site... Wossner pistons and rods are listed for the 16v.

Would probably make more sense to go 16v really wouldn't it...

17th November 2008, 22:03

16v and 8v are the same. some can have 18mm gudgeon pins though. best to speak to john at gmc.
if your not running silly psi and keep inlet temps down then for 160-190 should be ok i would of thought.

16v is the best way for more power obviously.

17th November 2008, 22:23

VTS and VTR have the same bore size - so most places only sell them as VTS pistons. However, as Neil has said - in order to get them to fit on a VTR engine you will need to change the rods as well to either OE VTS rods or forged items - as the fitment of rod/piston is different on the VTR/S.

It's the heat more than anything that kills the standard pistons. Not the amount of boost, but the charge temperature. Which with an Eaton s/c tend to be much higher than a Rotrex.

Cams with boost tends to equal a lot of blow-through, loosing power. Unless you get specific cams for boost. But the standard ones are quite capable.

You can piggyback the standard ECU with either a SigCon/MF2, or a Dastek. But standalone would be much better. Again with you using an Eaton, charge temps will likely to be high and personally i'd want full control over ignition values.

I've known VTS' to take over a bar of boost on the plastic manifold - but the Rallye manifold is a good idea. Obviously depends on which engine you have weather it'll fit or not. And needs a minimum of a remap to work well (although you'd be needing one for boost anyhow).

160@fly should be perfectly reachable - but again i'm basing that on using a Rotrex and a BIG intercooler. Mine had well over that on 0.6 bar boost, with potential for much more. But the eaton charger is supposedly much less effecient - and produces a lot more heat.

17th November 2008, 22:29

I could easily get rid of the Eaton for something else but I got it and the fitting kit very cheap.

What is yours like to drive with 141 atw?

17th November 2008, 22:30

Did you find out the engine problems you started experiencing?

17th November 2008, 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by tobyk

I could easily get rid of the Eaton for something else but I got it and the fitting kit very cheap.

What is yours like to drive with 141 atw?

Fitting kit?
As in a bracket to hold it to the engine - and pulley that lines up with the alternator?

TBH thats probably the hardest part of fitting the Eaton. After that its just a case of the in-effeciencys compared to the Rotrex.

Its pretty nippy with 141atw - but as with everything, you quickly want more. I never really looked too far into resolving the issues i was having - i checked over the basics and nothing turned up - so used it as a good opportunity to spend more money for more power. I really should take the engine apart and find out what the problem was - but i've been told it might've just been the air filter being clogged stopping the extra power getting in.

17th November 2008, 22:48

I've got a bracket to hold the charger yeah, along with a lot of pipework and a pulley yeah.

With regards to your problem I was just wondering if you had a piston starting to melt slowly.

Cheers for your replies. I think I need to think a bit more about how much power I want with regards to spending.

17th November 2008, 22:50

wow someone local to me!

Wallace in town could help you with a dastek if you want a local ecu/piggyback

17th November 2008, 22:53

sorry to hijack the thread but while all the boosted folk are here quick question
Compared to turbocharging is supercharging
*Easier/Harder
*More/Less Reliable
*Cheaper/ More expensive

In no way am I asking is supercharging a quick cheap bhp jump as I know your well in the £1,000's for a well powered reliable set-up

Sully

17th November 2008, 22:55

Yeah - my main thought was either a piston started to crack, or piston rings gone. But engine seemed to run perfectly fine. Just none of the extra boost that there should have been

Definately think how much money you want to spend, and be realistic in pricing things up - and what you need.

For example;

Clutch + Engine Mounts + Quaife + Injectors = £1500 straight off. Now you don't NEED all of these - but all of them will be required at some point when the power goes up. Other than the initial s/c setup, i've not really kept a track of whats been spent getting more power - just spending as/when i can afford/justify it. For instance when i got the s/c kit i knew the huge pace/gmc intercooler would get me more reliable power than spending £500 on anything else. Likewise i knew that spending money on internals to begin with was pointless as i always planned a new engine - and the small power increase would keep me happy in the meantime whilst allowing me time to uprate other things.

17th November 2008, 22:57

i would always choose supercharger over turbo, mainly due to the power being their all the time and also the whine of the charger (depending on what charger it is) a turbo is alot easier to diy as you can get any turbo and then make system to fit with it hence why most people turbo their car (unles they choose to get a propper kit and uprate their engines)

17th November 2008, 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by gd16

Yeah - my main thought was either a piston started to crack, or piston rings gone. But engine seemed to run perfectly fine. Just none of the extra boost that there should have been

Definately think how much money you want to spend, and be realistic in pricing things up - and what you need.

For example;

Clutch + Engine Mounts + Quaife + Injectors = £1500 straight off. Now you don't NEED all of these - but all of them will be required at some point when the power goes up. Other than the initial s/c setup, i've not really kept a track of whats been spent getting more power - just spending as/when i can afford/justify it. For instance when i got the s/c kit i knew the huge pace/gmc intercooler would get me more reliable power than spending £500 on anything else. Likewise i knew that spending money on internals to begin with was pointless as i always planned a new engine - and the small power increase would keep me happy in the meantime whilst allowing me time to uprate other things.

on the budgeting side of things I always way over budget. So I have some left it's like oh bonus.

17th November 2008, 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaxoSully

sorry to hijack the thread but while all the boosted folk are here quick question
Compared to turbocharging is supercharging
*Easier/Harder
*More/Less Reliable
*Cheaper/ More expensive

In no way am I asking is supercharging a quick cheap bhp jump as I know your well in the £1,000's for a well powered reliable set-up

Sully

Too be honest - you really can't answer any of the questions without more information.

For a basic setup - s/c is easier to fit. I fitted everything in my garage - everything bolt on, then got the engine management fitted. Yes you can get a bolt on turbo kit as well, but you've still got to mess around with oil feeds off the engine etc. As well as making sure the downpipe connects the turbo/exhaust properly.
The new Rotrex C30's have their own oil supply, fill that up, prime it, attach belt.
However - if you're going for a more extreme setup - they're probably both going to work out hard as you need to rebuild the engine with forged parts ideally.

Reliability - depends on the power output. In basic terms - a turbo will almost always produce more torque for a given max bhp due to the power delivery. Torque kills gearboxes. Easiest way is to make the engine reliable when you build it. Bleed off the boost at lower RPMs so the torque isn't as high, or spec the transmission so its up to the job.

Cost - again depends on spec/parts used etc. And also got to think of what you want the end result to be. IE Spend £2k on a 200bhp turbo setup, or £3.5k on a 200bhp s/c setup. But then decide you want 280bhp. If you've specced the turbo setup wrong, and need a new intercooler, clutch, injectors etc etc - you'll spend a lot upgrading it. If you've specced the s/c setup well and just need to remove the restrictor and fit forged pistons - it'll cost £600. But the same could be said vice-versa. All about seeing the final picture - may cost you more to begin with, but cheaper than buying parts twice.

17th November 2008, 23:19

ive got a few questions for advice on boost, hope you all dont mind!!

ive managed to pick up cheap turbo kit, a second hand cittuning kit, it consists of:
manifold, turbo, downpipe, oil lines, intercooler......

im unsure with regard to management and fuelling, ive got two options in my mind atm, just wondering which one you would choose in my situation:
a megasquirt which i was going to intall myself to a 3 plug vts, and 4 larger injectors, i was going to get it mapped by a local guy.
OR
a mf2/sigcon kit form cittuning, which i would also be installing myself and then possible setting up myself??

alos im after advice for the compression issues, i was thinking to begin woith that i want to just riun lower compression without forged pistons to see if i like the booseted saxo, would 2x1.9mm steel headgaskets be thick enough to lower the compression sufficently?? if so what boost can i expect to run with this??

cheers in advance!

18th November 2008, 00:24

Megasquirt - from what i've heard, unless its a pre-assembled one, takes quite a bit of know-how in order for it to work. And i've no idea if it'll cope with a replaceing a 3 plug ECU - as even some of the normal standalones (KMS etc) struggle to control the dash water temp (and sure there's something else).

Mf2/SigCon- possible to install/setup yourself, yes. With only a little bit wiring knowledge needed. Bare in mind you'll need to buy a MAP sensor that will cope with the boost you're planning, as well as a good wideband lambda sensor if you're mapping it yourself. As well as the additional injector(s)

I'd only worry about compression issues if the inlet temps are going to be high. If you do things properly, and manage to keep inlet temps down - no reason why you need to change CR. Although changing for forged pistons is a good idea.

18th November 2008, 19:19

great advice gd16, i think i will go for the mf2/sigcon route. cittuning seem to do a complete kit, which includes injectors elbow etc... everything needed to fuel a boosted car. i would just be worried that i couldnt map it myself?! is it simple enough to do??

i think i will lower the compression every so slightly just incase!! lol!!!

ive got a reasonably sized intercooler, so the temps should be nice and cool!!!