Uprating the cams - some guidance required please

7th December 2008, 16:34

Ok I'm wanting to uprate the cams on my car... done a bit of research and decided on the Newman PH3's.

Q1) I noticed in the Newman catalogue under the available cams, an Additional Components bit... so my question is when I purchase and fit the cams do I need to purchase and fit these two components as well???

Quote:

16 x Hydraulic Cam Followers (28.35mm x 26mm)
16 x Mechanical Easy Adjust EN40B Non Shim Cam Followers (28.35mm x 26mm)

Any reasons why and why not?

Q2) What are the expected gains for the engine on PH3's on a pretty much standard intake and exhaust system?

Q3) How is the car for day-to-day driveability?

Q4) Can you suggest any reputable places to get the engine mapped (3-Plug) and the expected cost for such?

Cheers

Ads

7th December 2008, 16:55

The followers will only need changing if there worn, if your mileage is high then just take a look at them and decide. If not then you'll be fine, they are just a metal block with a sort of piston inside that fill with your engine oil. They act like a damper when the cam hits them and they push the valve open. So if they stick your engine sounds rattly but it doesnt do anything bad to the engine, other than maybe not open a valve as much as it should.

The engine idle on mine is like this;

And day to day driveability is pretty much as it would be standard, but with a bit of a wob wob wob wob wob idle. You loose a bit of torque low down but when you get above 4k you'll be glad you got them

.

7th December 2008, 20:25

if they fuck though they can release your valve retainer collets, dropping a valve into teh engine killing your engine. if you did want to change your you would need the hydraulics, not the mechanical 1s. whats your mileage? mines been cammed for 40k now on original lifters/tappets.
chipwizards or standard alone is the way to go.

7th December 2008, 20:25

if they fuck though they can release your valve retainer collets, dropping a valve into teh engine killing your engine. if you did want to change your you would need the hydraulics, not the mechanical 1s. whats your mileage? mines been cammed for 40k now on original lifters/tappets.
chipwizards or standard alone is the way to go.

7th December 2008, 21:19

id say chipwizards for mapping adz
wayne did mine on ph3s n it was pretty good
idle was a little rough but it will be on cams

what breathing mods you looking at aswell??

7th December 2008, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by williamsvts

if they fuck though they can release your valve retainer collets, dropping a valve into teh engine killing your engine. if you did want to change your you would need the hydraulics, not the mechanical 1s. whats your mileage? mines been cammed for 40k now on original lifters/tappets.
chipwizards or standard alone is the way to go.

cool stuff man,

so based on what you're saying

Quote:

16 x Hydraulic Cam Followers (28.35mm x 26mm)

are needed ONLY

not the...

Quote:

16 x Mechanical Easy Adjust EN40B Non Shim Cam Followers (28.35mm x 26mm)

yar?

sorry for the questions... I'm a r-tard

7th December 2008, 21:34

i had hydraulics in mine btw and it seemed fine

7th December 2008, 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

cool stuff man,

so based on what you're saying

are needed ONLY

not the...

yar?

sorry for the questions... I'm a r-tard

Exactly.

7th December 2008, 23:37

brill!

cheers man

8th December 2008, 00:01

What made u go with the Newmans mate?
Whats the difference between the Newman PH3's or the 708's or the Piper cams?
Same with the ECU side of things, how do people make their choice on which one to go for? Is it to do with what set up they want.
Sorry mate dont wanna seem like im thread hijacking here lol.

8th December 2008, 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_90

What made u go with the Newmans mate?
Whats the difference between the Newman PH3's or the 708's or the Piper cams?

I imagine the lift and duration will differ slightly between them - depends what you're after really.

8th December 2008, 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_90

What made u go with the Newmans mate?
Whats the difference between the Newman PH3's or the 708's or the Piper cams?
Same with the ECU side of things, how do people make their choice on which one to go for? Is it to do with what set up they want.
Sorry mate dont wanna seem like im thread hijacking here lol.

combination of things really man...
Had a look at Camcam, Newman, Kent Performance and Piper,

There are slight variances between the cams in terms of duration and lift but nothing substancial (maybe an odd hp here and there), so really price and recommendation made the Newcam Cams the choice to go for really

On the ECU, I'm very keen to avoid a billion flashy slights going inside my dash, aside from it being distracting I don't like the idea of not knowing if there is an issue with the engine that would cause the light to flash - hence it'll be a remap of the standard ECU.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeumH

I imagine the lift and duration will differ slightly between them - depends what you're after really.

The most affordable with a good reputation for me

8th December 2008, 00:38

oh and the prospect of better MPG as well...

8th December 2008, 01:16

Ads where abouts are you living thesedays?

QEP wouldnt be a million miles away from you if you're still southern? They were immensely good with my headwork/fitting the cams. They look to be more into the Catcams though which were a very similar price to the Nemans at the time iirc

Are you looking to advance any further than just cams eventually? remap on standard ecu would be sufficient if you're not, however the capabilities of the standard ecu wont give as good results

8th December 2008, 01:29

adam ECU wise id personally speak to andy as it might be quite cost effective to run one of the PNP systems. Some well known ecu mappers ive recently heard a few bad reports on the 'longevity' of the ecu after tha map. Not sure why or how true but something id deffo research.

Idle on 708s you should know what they are like from driving the fat short bald ones car. And the newmans are not really wilder so should be fine, heck mine idles ok on 803s!

8th December 2008, 09:11

newmans and catcams are pretty much the same price and same to be pretty much identical cams.

8th December 2008, 13:34

The 708s have been proven time and time again, so if I HAD to make a choice, I would choose them over the Newmans.

If you are putting these type of spec cams in, then you will need to change the exhaust, exhaust manifold and airfilter, or you'll be disappointed with the results.

8th December 2008, 18:21

Hey am looking at Getting a Kent-Cams-PT40K Kit for my Vtr Just wondering what you guys thoughts were and if its worthwhile doing? Also how long itdd take for a trained mechanic. cheers

Oli

8th December 2008, 18:21

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kent-Cams-PT40...1%7C240%3A1318

8th December 2008, 18:57

Cam Idle isnt necessarily bad.

I've got PH3s set to the newman timing and the idle is lumpy. ManC has the same timings and the same rough idle. It gives a steep curve up at the top end and you lose out over mid/low range (although my mid & low is still better than on std i think)

Mr_X has PH3s on a slightly friendly timing and seems to have a much more usable bottom/mid range. So no stalling while your parking at tesco - unless your shit

PH3 have lgightly higher lif and longer duration than catcams but i've never really seen any proof to say which is out and out the better choice.

*All of us using the Predator ECU too & Andy mapped the other 2 lads, mines a squiffy map from Ross though

8th December 2008, 20:55

idle depends on what the timing is like imo, williams has said the same.

if its turned down (not sure if thats the correct tterm) idle wont be as bad, much smoother, but when correct with my 708s its lumpy, not the best on cold starts, but then you have seen when its used regularly its fine.

i didnt bother changing followers either, just cams in, cambelt done, has it been done on yours?

as ryan said maybe worth looking into the datashift ecu

i wouldnt bother with qep for headwork, pointless imo with just cams, as for fitting, plently of places, williams done mine and did a great job, but down there you also have tweeqd, which i have never heard anything bad about.

As mentioned 708s have been proven time and time again, only one i know that ran newmans is alex, so cant comment on that.

remap price depends on if the timing is done or not i think

8th December 2008, 21:00

Sayer like I said to you at least meet 708's seem to make the best power

AND yes it will cough and bark on when cold

Few of my mates got them a few years back when they first come out...really good power figures they got

And yes the stand ecu remap is fine despite what others say...point in buy a standalone if you aint gonna use it to its full potential..pointless and costly

8th December 2008, 21:16

i have 708's re-mapped @ chiwizards made 161bhp
idle was terrible before i hade it mapped now its spot on slight bit lumpy but thats what you expect.

8th December 2008, 21:25

Sayer im running the ph3's and ive no issues with mine. Idle is best described how ste said it with a wob wob wob. Totally fine though no cutting out or anything. Day to day generally it doesnt get much above 3k revs and is fine to drive and very very good on juice. Mine was mapped at chipwizards. In all honesty the mapping graph doesnt mean too much to me but it may to you so here it is

8th December 2008, 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groomster-VTS

i have 708's re-mapped @ chiwizards made 161bhp
idle was terrible before i hade it mapped now its spot on slight bit lumpy but thats what you expect.

mine was awesome without remap lol

8th December 2008, 21:52

ye mate didnt bother with a remap with his and it runs sweet. just my luck lol.

8th December 2008, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groomster-VTS

ye mate didnt bother with a remap with his and it runs sweet. just my luck lol.

mines much better with the map like

8th December 2008, 23:27

Did you feel any further gains with a map?.

8th December 2008, 23:43

you've got to surely???? the ignition map will be all over the place otherwise... won't it?

9th December 2008, 00:00

A good map will make or break any setup tbh and with enough time and effort on it it can be as near 'perfect' as possible.

Whilst developing the Hydra ECU for mine theyve spent hours and hours doing mine and anyone whos seen it running so far will tell you that the idle is so 'normal' that you cannot tell that its a cammed engine.

Cold start was pretty good too, cars back again tomorrow after being there for the last week or so, extremely cold weather and me not needing the car theyve had it to work on the cold start first thing in the morning

9th December 2008, 00:03

I NEED a ride and viewing of this car mate!!!

I'm actually in birmingham on the 20th...

9th December 2008, 00:03

Hey, I just bought Newman cams PH3 for my Saxo-VTS, I still didn't try to install them because I'm short with time, so I was just wondering and would like to ask you guys for help. Is there any things that I should keep an eye closely, any secrets during instalation or else? My bigest thinking problem in this moment is correct timming. I know that the Saxo comes from factory with adjusting cam gears, so will be needed any special setup or. So I was wondering if any of you have any good advice, picture, or any other info about this I will be more than grateful.

9th December 2008, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

I NEED a ride and viewing of this car mate!!!

I'm actually in birmingham on the 20th...

mmm 20th, actually i can do that

anytime mid afternoon/early evening

ill let you have a drive

9th December 2008, 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by willsy

mmm 20th, actually i can do that

anytime mid afternoon/early evening

ill let you have a drive

no worries about the drive mate... a passenger ride would be immense though!!! I'll give you a call nearer the time - take some pics perhaps???

9th December 2008, 00:14

Definately

sounds good to me. Fingers crossed for some kind weather

9th December 2008, 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by sax-oli

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kent-Cams-PT40...1%7C240%3A1318

You could look at these as an alternative - if yours is a black top
http://www.kamracing.co.uk/manufactu...-top-1123.html

Very similar spec but saves you some beer money.

PH3 vs 708s - they are pretty similar so just go with the one you like the sound of

9th December 2008, 08:52

Hi all,

Sandy Brown posted a lift curve for both the 708 and PH3 cams on that 'other' Saxo forum

, for all intents and purposes they can be considered *identical*.

The main thing that affects idle quality is the cam-timing. If it's aggressive, then no matter what you set the ignition timing to, or the fuelling, it'll wob-wob. This is because if the gas speed is too slow (like 950rpm) then the airflow stagnates. There is nothing you can do with this really.

On throttle bodies, you map the car RPM-vs-throttle position, so at zero throttle is gives "x" fuel irrespective of engine vacuum, however on "wobbing" idle, the MAP signal fluctuates and the idle fuelling can go slightly wrong, so bodies cope better.

Re-mapping the stock ECU is a perfectly good way of setting the car up with Cams, it has the advantage of using the factory idle algorithm which is pretty good, however as the boys who bought the Predator are now finding out, they are all asking for remaps! People asking for cams to be re-timed for either better bottom end or better top end and obviously that'll require different mapping settings. Once you've had your stock ECU re-mapped you're stuck with that choice you made on the day.

The Predator VTS 1-plug currently stands at £550 fitted and mapped and I've got a fair few good maps now so it shouldn't take too long to do

Kind regards
Andy

9th December 2008, 10:22

Andy, what functions are still carried out by the stock ECU when your Pred ECU is attached?

9th December 2008, 10:48

Toad - the stock ECU is *removed* completely

Andy

9th December 2008, 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthor1

Toad - the stock ECU is *removed* completely

Andy

Ah, I didn't realise that! I was thinking it was spliced in somehow. Hurry up and sort one out for the 3 plug! Heh

I would be facinated to know whether I would gain from this ECU or not. Would be a high price to pay if I saw no improvements.

9th December 2008, 12:21

i would always get cam timing set on the rollers as each car is different so you can never get the most out of them without rollers. mine idles a bit lumpy and does sometimes cut out. engine likes to be driven between 4k -7.8k

9th December 2008, 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthor1

Hi all,

Sandy Brown posted a lift curve for both the 708 and PH3 cams on that 'other' Saxo forum

, for all intents and purposes they can be considered *identical*.

The main thing that affects idle quality is the cam-timing. If it's aggressive, then no matter what you set the ignition timing to, or the fuelling, it'll wob-wob. This is because if the gas speed is too slow (like 950rpm) then the airflow stagnates. There is nothing you can do with this really.

On throttle bodies, you map the car RPM-vs-throttle position, so at zero throttle is gives "x" fuel irrespective of engine vacuum, however on "wobbing" idle, the MAP signal fluctuates and the idle fuelling can go slightly wrong, so bodies cope better.

Re-mapping the stock ECU is a perfectly good way of setting the car up with Cams, it has the advantage of using the factory idle algorithm which is pretty good, however as the boys who bought the Predator are now finding out, they are all asking for remaps! People asking for cams to be re-timed for either better bottom end or better top end and obviously that'll require different mapping settings. Once you've had your stock ECU re-mapped you're stuck with that choice you made on the day.

The Predator VTS 1-plug currently stands at £550 fitted and mapped and I've got a fair few good maps now so it shouldn't take too long to do

Kind regards
Andy

if you get your standard ecu remapped your not stuck with it, wayne just charges by the hour as you would pay normally for other ecus.

9th December 2008, 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by williamsvts

i would always get cam timing set on the rollers as each car is different so you can never get the most out of them without rollers. mine idles a bit lumpy and does sometimes cut out. engine likes to be driven between 4k -7.8k

I often hear this "each car is different" line, but they're not really are they. They come out the factory having engines made within a tolerence, so although they will be mildly different that will rarely translate into different settings. If you fit cams to 2 engines, time them in the same, they'll run happily on the same map.

Far better a phrase to use is "cams can be timed manually to different settings, which will require different MAP settings".

You'll always get within 5% of peak power without using a dyno, even when changing and setting cams, and some people don't want the extra outlay.

Andy

9th December 2008, 13:10

Just something to throw in the mix...

When Wayne mapped my car, in only made 140BHP. This was due to the exhaust I had - Powerflow - being completely useless. I changed the exhaust, went back to see Wayne, he fiddled with the cam timing a bit, and soon got the engine producing the power it should be producing. He didn't alter the map.

Since then, I've installed a big valve head, which has had a fair bit skimmed off it too. So in theory, there's two reasons why my car might not be perfectly mapped now. However, my car produces more BHP than other cars of the same spec that I've seen at least. The last rolling road visit - Nothampton Motosrpsport - my car was ahead of all the others, only being beaten by Josh's TB'd car, but that was only a few BHP more, around 5 ATW IIRC.

I'd love to know it more can be got from my engine...

9th December 2008, 13:18

How do you know the extra power was from the exhaust? Sounds more likely that the cam timing alteration would have had a difference?

What's your full engien spec list, and what power are you making?

Andy

9th December 2008, 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthor1

How do you know the extra power was from the exhaust? Sounds more likely that the cam timing alteration would have had a difference?

What's your full engien spec list, and what power are you making?

Andy

It really was from the exhaust. Poor Wayne spent ages trying everything he knew, but he couldn't get the power above 140BHP. Smacked a Scorpion system on there, and it went up to 147 straight away. He then tweaked it to 153BHP. That was quite some time ago... I've since installed that head I was on about, changed the exhaust again, and had the cam timing adjusted too. I can't tell you what power it is, as it's different on every RR it goes to. A lot of us went to Nothampton Motorsport a few months ago, and all the cammed 16 valves made really low power on their rollers. I made 145BHP, with the closest one to me being 140BHP. That's the lowest I've had from a RR. I've had a reading as high as 170BHP before, so you have to take everything with a pinch of salt.

The mods aren't much Andy, just 708s with a big valve cylinder head. Supersprint exhaust manifold - 421 type - and a Pugsport exhaust system.

9th December 2008, 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthor1

I often hear this "each car is different" line, but they're not really are they. They come out the factory having engines made within a tolerence, so although they will be mildly different that will rarely translate into different settings. If you fit cams to 2 engines, time them in the same, they'll run happily on the same map.

Far better a phrase to use is "cams can be timed manually to different settings, which will require different MAP settings".

You'll always get within 5% of peak power without using a dyno, even when changing and setting cams, and some people don't want the extra outlay.

Andy

if 1 engine has bores made to the largest tolerance on the diameter, lowest tolerance on the piston height etc, it will be different to an engine made to tolerances at the opposite extreme. QEP tell you to start with 1.5mm lift and go from their on 708s, not to stick with 1.5mm lift, so imo its best to get your timing tweeked on the rollers to get the best from it.

11th December 2008, 18:54

Willsy do you know an exact price yet for your ecu? Im interested in gettin tractive to fit some cams for me and then get the same ecu as yours all mapped up...? Makes sense with them being a 10minute drive from my house. Thanks.