S1 rallye gearbox in my vts?

12th January 2009, 17:54

I have a 2002 vts with the following mods: decat pipe, sports exhaust, 4-2-1 manifold, ported and polished throttlebody and a sports airfilter.
future mods: cammed, remap.
I'm thinking of putting a S1 rallye gearbox in my vts, is this a good idea?
Am I right in sayng a S1 rallye gearbox has faster acceleration but lower top end?
If this is true then it is perfect for me as I want quicker acceleration and I don't really go to the top end much that often neways???

12th January 2009, 18:02

if you do alot of motorway trips expect economy to suffer.

The gearsets are the same, the final drive is what gives it better in gear performance as such, giving lower speeds but better acce;eration in each gear

12th January 2009, 18:03

I think they do about 4000rpm at 70mph and top out around 112.

12th January 2009, 18:09

tops out at 122mph on standard vts rev limit and normal size wheel/tyre.

12th January 2009, 18:23

Well I do about 50 miles a day five days a week on the motorway to and from university so I guess a S1 rallye gearbox is not very economical for me. My vts revs quite high already compared to my old vtr, any more would be crazy!
So i'll just stick to camming then remapping it.

12th January 2009, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shak

I think they do about 4000rpm at 70mph and top out around 112.

Just a bit more. Nearer 4150rpm IIRC.

I would wait until you fit fastroad cams. The S1 box relies on your car being able to rev, so it will be even nicer.

12th January 2009, 23:40

i have a s1 box love it best thing to add to a vts. like people are saying 70mph is just over 4000rpm and with throttle bodies it drinks fuel so i have to coast alot

but your fuel bill is only as big as your right foot. 5th gear smooth driving everywhere possible makes up for the by-pass/ motorway miles

13th January 2009, 10:01

ummm i'm in two minds now whether to get one or not because of the motorway driving I have to do but I guess I could do as sparco_tom says and to cruise on the motorway which would compensate for the fast accelerating I do on the roads. I think I'll wait until I camm the car and then get the S1 gearbox.
btw how much do these gearboxes go for and where can I get them from?

13th January 2009, 10:05

After I trip in Danny's car... If your after performance in your go I say go for it. I was pretty
much gob smacked at how much it transforms the car.

13th January 2009, 10:06

goodluck trying to find a good one. i paid £250 for mine

13th January 2009, 10:11

£125 for me.

13th January 2009, 10:11

Holy shit! Well the XSi box is always another option.

13th January 2009, 11:04

wow thats expensive I think I might have to wait until summer do some over-time at work before thinking of putting in the gearbox or maybe just blow my student loan on it!

13th January 2009, 11:12

i have one on my car got it for 180.

13th January 2009, 11:15

How much quicker does it actually make the acceleration?

13th January 2009, 13:46

it makes acceleration much quicker

blow your student loan well worth it

13th January 2009, 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by rushy_23

Holy shit! Well the XSi box is always another option.

ive got an xsi box waiting to go in my motor
100 quid for it

bit better on the motorway
but still gunna be fast off the mark

13th January 2009, 13:49

100quid for xsi box? i might have it

i got a spare engine i might want to put it on

13th January 2009, 13:57

alex you cunt if you are selling xsi box you know i NEED IT!

I asked for it the other day

13th January 2009, 14:25

I'll have an xsi box if there is one going

13th January 2009, 15:39

well i wont tread on anybodys toes, i can get an xsi box from a guy near me in about a months time

13th January 2009, 15:41

I dont think als selling a nyway, was more saying what he paid.

he knows if hes selling ill kick his ass if he doesnt let me have it

13th January 2009, 15:44

ahhh thats fair enough i just need a new box in any condition s1 or xsi as i did some work for a guy who rebuilds them. So obviously i am getting a box rebuilt out of half a days work on his roof

13th January 2009, 15:45

If anyone can find me a racing box, I'll sell my S1...

13th January 2009, 15:46

when you say racing? what do you mean sequential?

13th January 2009, 15:49

Im needing a better box than my diffed s2.

sadly the quaife gearsets seem to not be very strong (input shaft iirc)

and i cant be fucked to do a cup car BE conversion either.

straight cut gear sets would be great if i could fit in the car properly to heel toe.

13th January 2009, 15:52

No, just a box with a decent gearset, i.e., Quaife. I love the S1 and all, but can't stand the ratios... I'm looking for something like:

1st - 50mph
2nd - 66mph
3rd - 84mph
4th - 105mph
5th - 125mph

There or there abouts...

13th January 2009, 15:53

Bit of a guess, but I think at the moment it's something like:

1st - 38mph
2nd - 58mph
3rd - 79mph
4th - 105mph
5th - 125mph

13th January 2009, 15:55

toad you are same as me.

I want a long assss 1st gear, then a decent final drive and close gears the rest

only with me i want 130-140 at 8kish

13th January 2009, 15:57

best earn some pennies then and get saving

13th January 2009, 15:57

1st gear is simply unusable... Completely wasted. Might as well have a fecking 4 speed.

13th January 2009, 15:58

and atm with the s2 box i can hit over 100 in 3rd lol

13th January 2009, 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparco_Tom

best earn some pennies then and get saving

I hath moneys, just cant find the right gearset for me

13th January 2009, 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

1st gear is simply unusable... Completely wasted. Might as well have a fecking 4 speed.

thats why i sold my diffed one, decided that 1st and even 2nd might be unuseable with this engine lol

13th January 2009, 16:01

whats the problem with the quaife gearset?

which bit is the weak point? because your 'r' isn't all that strong, just revs a lot to produce the power... so it should take it unless it's stupidly weak

13th January 2009, 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

and atm with the s2 box i can hit over 100 in 3rd lol

3rd gear on the S1 is awesome. Boot it from a low as 4000k, and it's offski!

45mph to 80 ish in no time.

13th January 2009, 16:03

Where did he mention 'weak' ?

EDIT: Ahh, much earlier on.

13th January 2009, 16:03

sayer i know mine doesnt produce huge torque, but heard a few horror stories on NA engines.

as i said I belive it was the input shafts that snapped on a few, and aint cheap to replace.

Not 100% sure but know theres been a few bad reports, shame as quaife are right by me, and usually their stuff is shit hot

13th January 2009, 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

3rd gear on the S1 is awesome. Boot it from a low as 4000k, and it's offski!

45mph to 80 ish in no time.

mine will do 65-100 in no time.

although an s1 boxed cammed vts imo will have alot better in gear perofmance, ill just have to use the extra powaaaa

13th January 2009, 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

sayer i know mine doesnt produce huge torque, but heard a few horror stories on NA engines.

as i said I belive it was the input shafts that snapped on a few, and aint cheap to replace.

Not 100% sure but know theres been a few bad reports, shame as quaife are right by me, and usually their stuff is shit hot

input shaft has the least amount of torque going through it!??!?!

I'd have a gander with quaife if they're nearby, get there view on it - i wouldn't just write them off because of the failures.

13th January 2009, 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

input shaft has the least amount of torque going through it!??!?!

I'd have a gander with quaife if they're nearby, get there view on it - i wouldn't just write them off because of the failures.

ill try and dig up the threads on the RR and some rally forums I found.

as i was tempted by the quaife synchro gearset before lol

13th January 2009, 16:09

They've got quite a lot of choices / combos you can play about with you know...

13th January 2009, 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

mine will do 65-100 in no time.

although an s1 boxed cammed vts imo will have alot better in gear perofmance, ill just have to use the extra powaaaa

That's 4th for me. Not as lairy as 3rd...

13th January 2009, 16:10

random fact aswell adam, I live in a house owned formerly by the quaife family.

they are 10-15mins up the road lol

13th January 2009, 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

They've got quite a lot of choices / combos you can play about with you know...

yep thats why i originally looked at them. then read some horror stories

13th January 2009, 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

They've got quite a lot of choices / combos you can play about with you know...

just seems a bit shit that a company with that much R&D into materials, mechanics and transmission can't make an input shaft that lasts on a N/A'd vehicle...

I'm sure quaife would change the material or make a few modifications somewhere if there were constant reports of failures on such 'comparatively' low input torques, seeing as though the standard boxes seem to be able to take the force :Err:

13th January 2009, 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

random fact aswell adam, I live in a house owned formerly by the quaife family.

they are 10-15mins up the road lol

haha, class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

yep thats why i originally looked at them. then read some horror stories

then take the horror stories to quaife and have their input (pun master

)

13th January 2009, 16:20

well atm im trying to stop spending money, but i nearly did fire off an email with my power curve and requirements to see what gearset they recommended lol.

iirc the synchro sets are 1200+ vat... which isnt bad when you think i looked at sadev 5 speeders (both gearsets are no sue to me

)

13th January 2009, 16:22

abit sick lol

13th January 2009, 16:24

http://www.quaife.co.uk/Citroen-Saxo...Quaife-gearkit

13th January 2009, 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

iirc the synchro sets are 1200+ vat... which isnt bad when you think i looked at sadev 5 speeders (both gearsets are no sue to me

)

considered the diff on it's own is £500+ I was expecting a figure closer to £2k actually. Heard about the Sadev but never read up about them... big power I guess?

13th January 2009, 16:35

nah the sadev (well certain ones are) mostly not rated for high lb of torque.

I fancied a 5 speed sequential out of the c2R2 but at k plus all the gunbbins its not worth it espec as the gearsets id be at 110 at 8-8.5k!!!

13th January 2009, 16:55

I've just got a s1 box for my vtr tell much difference?

13th January 2009, 16:59

you will notice a HUGE difference.

sayer - toad.

S2 FD with
quaife gearset lol

13th January 2009, 17:07

Good im just thinking is it worth it ?

13th January 2009, 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by syvtr

Good im just thinking is it worth it ?

Bad idea for a VTR engine IMO.

13th January 2009, 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

you will notice a HUGE difference.

sayer - toad.

S2 FD with
quaife gearset lol

When I was looking into this, Quaife had a number of gearsets and FDs... You don't have to use your FD right? 1st gear is a tad long in that one, no good for anything but a race circuit...

13th January 2009, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Bad idea for a VTR engine IMO.

Why is that then mate ?

13th January 2009, 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by syvtr

Good im just thinking is it worth it ?

that graph he put up wasn't for a VTR mate... it was for his track car.

s1 on a VTR is ok if you want it to top out at about 50mph...

13th January 2009, 19:20

ryan, can you use o.e. final drives with the quiafe gearset??

13th January 2009, 19:23

toad the synchromesh gearset only has two gearsets, its the dog engagement set with multiple FD options etc. which are over £300 a pop.

Fanny - yep you use OE FD according to quaife site, why i used the S2 FD for those ratios so if i went that route it would mean using the FD i have and thus the ATB diff machined onto the crownwheel.

13th January 2009, 19:29

Get the tissues out lads

13th January 2009, 19:31

I have a lovely S1 box currently being stripped and rebuilt.

Goodbye S2 Box!!

13th January 2009, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

Get the tissues out lads

i was looking at this box the other day and worked out the longest final drive and it still wouldnt be any good for what i want. good for you though ryan.
big£££ though.

13th January 2009, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

i was looking at this box the other day and worked out the longest final drive and it still wouldnt be any good for what i want. good for you though ryan.
big£££ though.

just checked the ratios lol on the maddest FD at 8500 i think id be topping out at 104, on longest one 144!!

Perfect for me, sadly i dont sell carbon at extremely expensive prices to be able to afford one

13th January 2009, 19:47

lol..

144 wouldnt be too bad i suppose.

13th January 2009, 19:50

144 is about what im hoping for tbh, prob a lil to short for das ring yet tbh im not that fussed, uk tracks turn me on more, where if i wreck it i dont have a big bill for zee germans

13th January 2009, 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

144 is about what im hoping for tbh, prob a lil to short for das ring yet tbh im not that fussed, uk tracks turn me on more, where if i wreck it i dont have a big bill for zee germans

Yeah, you can't get a box just so it suits das ring!

13th January 2009, 21:24

As I can pick up an FD from a VTR, VTS box for next to nothing, I might see if they would be suitable with any of the available gearsets. I see what you mean now Ryan about the available ones.

13th January 2009, 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

Get the tissues out lads

If I won the lottery, I'll buy you all one.

I'd buy one for myself too, before I buy an RS4.

13th January 2009, 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

As I can pick up an FD from a VTR, VTS box for next to nothing, I might see if they would be suitable with any of the available gearsets. I see what you mean now Ryan about the available ones.

yep the FIA homolgated gearset is no use to either of us imo.

The other one with the right FD in theory could be quite respectable, shame they couldnt do a slightly longer 5th gear for it lol!!

13th January 2009, 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Yeah, you can't get a box just so it suits das ring!

if anything I want one to suit brands, I was doing circa 120-125 on main straight so if i go better accell obviously ill need something able to give me 130-135 imo.

13th January 2009, 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

if anything I want one to suit brands, I was doing circa 120-125 on main straight so if i go better accell obviously ill need something able to give me 130-135 imo.

maybe 130 at a push man... you're going quicker and you're coming to the end of the straight quicker...

13th January 2009, 21:53

Hmm, yes I'd agree you'll need something that doesn't top out on track.

13th January 2009, 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

maybe 130 at a push man... you're going quicker and you're coming to the end of the straight quicker...

brands doesnt have the longest straight though mate, although I would have thought that as the distance is remaining the same getting faster will mean you are getting there quicker, but as the acceleration is still occuring its greater than the increased speed reducing the distance as such. And i obviously dont want to be at 8.5k in 5th!

13th January 2009, 22:21

depends how much 'pull' there is in it at 125mph i guess... I've yet to see this beast so I'm being subjective

13th January 2009, 22:43

I believe about the pull at that speed. Since I put the S1 box in, in 5th, it will pull hard to 120mph before there's any noticeable lack of power.

13th January 2009, 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

depends how much 'pull' there is in it at 125mph i guess... I've yet to see this beast so I'm being subjective

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

I believe about the pull at that speed. Since I put the S1 box in, in 5th, it will pull hard to 120mph before there's any noticeable lack of power.

like i said earlier she still rips your face off at 120+ it would rip my 172 a new arsehole all day long, ive yet to get it to run out of puff (other than when it was wheel spinning in the wet at XXX lol)

why I feel that with an increased in acceleration it would be a fair higher speed, having said that the higher speed would equate to me needing to brake earlier which effectively reduces the length of the straight.

sayer you could have come brands if youd paid attention

13th January 2009, 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

like i said earlier she still rips your face off at 120+ it would rip my 172 a new arsehole all day long, ive yet to get it to run out of puff (other than when it was wheel spinning in the wet at XXX lol)

why I feel that with an increased in acceleration it would be a fair higher speed, having said that the higher speed would equate to me needing to brake earlier which effectively reduces the length of the straight.

sayer you could have come brands if youd paid attention

what does it top out at in 5th at the moment?

if it needs a smaller ratio to get a greater top speed then the acceleration in 5th is going to suffer which is why I doubt you'd squeeze another 10mph more out of it... unless 5th is fine and it's the other ratio's that are letting it down.

13th January 2009, 23:15

it doesnt suffer in 5th ads,

Just feel that with a different set of ratios or CPW, that the in gear performance could substancially improve.

I donno what it tops out in reality iirc with the calculator 8k ish seem me at 160ish

at brands im not in 5th, i can only use 3rd and 4th as most corners are above 66-70 yet below 130-140

14th January 2009, 07:46

Mate's old car, used to be Jon_Ox's on the RR as well...S2 Rallye engine in an S1 shell, nothing major done, just exhaust and induction, would keep up with valvers, been there when its done it quite a few times, so its not hearsay, can only be down to the box IMO.

Bloody weapon that car was. Managed a 15.1 on one of its runs at the Pod as well