Request - Anyone with 708s / PH3s, please can you post your graphs...

  1. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #1
    Because I need to check out your curves.

    Would be much appreciated, as I'm having some issues at the moment, and seeing some other people's power and torque curves would be really useful.

    Cheers in advance!
  2. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #2
    Well here's mine from the RR day last Sunday:



    Disappointing wheel figure, with *apparently* huge drag losses. Putting numbers to one side, the curve itself bothers me. Shortly before 6000rpm there's a fairly sudden drop in power and it doesn't really gain much thereafter.

    I'm hoping the cam timing can be adjusted in an attempt to give some more top end at the loss of lower down torque, or maybe it needs mapping, as it's still on the map that it had before the big valve head and proper exhaust were fitted... RR operators didn't see any obvious fuelling issues...

    If I don't get anywhere with this, I might bung some PH4s in... Or I might just go standalone and bodies and see what happens.

    Comments would be useful. Cheers peeps.
  3. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Nov 2008 Derby Posts: 3619 Mk2 VTS
    #3
    Where did you get that tested? It looks the same as the print out I had from StreetRacers in Leciester. Their figures were shocking, one guy was so pissed off with his (98bhp predicted to be around 125bhp) he went to another RR and it ran a 114bhp the very next day.
  4. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #4
    It was at Austec. They have Maha rollers and they seemed to be pretty accurate...
  5. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Nov 2008 Derby Posts: 3619 Mk2 VTS
    #5
    Ah, same rollers... different place. Not heard the best of things about the rollers to be fair,so take the results with a pinch of salt. Wouldn't be dissapointed at all.
  6. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #6
    Aye, but putting the numbers to one side, things still aren't right, specially when near standard VTS' were making almost as much power as me.
  7. Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802
    #7
    Changing the cylinder head will change the VE of the engine, so it will need remapping...

    I also see a difference between "no paritulcar problems with the AFR" and "The AFR's we spot on throughout the full throttle power run".

    I think I'd be aiming for the latter! Wait for the 3-plug predator, and we'll hock some bodies on it!

    Andy
  8. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #8
    Sounds good Andy.
  9. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #9
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jorge- View Post
    Ah, same rollers... different place. Not heard the best of things about the rollers to be fair,so take the results with a pinch of salt. Wouldn't be dissapointed at all.
    You do know MAHAs are one of the more highly respected if not the most respected brand of rollers around the world>

    Toad re ATW figures see this thread last post
    http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...ht=803s&page=2

    interesting you say...
  10. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Nov 2008 Derby Posts: 3619 Mk2 VTS
    #10
    That is what I read everywhere. Went to this RR in Leicester who do all the figures for Fast Ford or whatever its called and the number were all over the place. We went there under the impression that Maha were really good rollers, but since being there I have only heard bad things about them on OCs
  11. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #11
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    You do know MAHAs are one of the more highly respected if not the most respected brand of rollers around the world>

    Toad re ATW figures see this thread last post
    http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...ht=803s&page=2

    interesting you say...
    It says:

    Divide the loss by 2 (due to 2 roller design) and minus that from fly to get wheel figure.

    That would mean I've got 135.6 atw.

    WTF?
  12. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #12
    I know I thought that would pickle you dude lol!

    Mine would make me at near 172 If i could get that off a set of rollers that would ne nice lol
  13. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #13
    That's not right. I think the wheel figures are pretty accurate as printed on the piece of paper. Trouble is, that means I need to work out where 8bhp atw has disappeared from my engine. Was only a few months ago we went to Northampton Motorsport...
  14. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #14
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jorge- View Post
    That is what I read everywhere. Went to this RR in Leicester who do all the figures for Fast Ford or whatever its called and the number were all over the place. We went there under the impression that Maha were really good rollers, but since being there I have only heard bad things about them on OCs
    lots of reports quote them as being the most accurate out of all the models, which is why more of the respected tuners have them. Still as with all rollers you tae them with a pinch of salt
  15. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #15
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    That's not right. I think the wheel figures are pretty accurate as printed on the piece of paper. Trouble is, that means I need to work out where 8bhp atw has disappeared from my engine. Was only a few months ago we went to Northampton Motorsport...
    as i said though there will be the discrepancies between rollers, the way they are set up, and the fact that this one uses a totally different system to work out tranny loss on the coast down as opposed to a standard claculation
  16. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #16
    Doesn't it read the atw figure, then "create" a fly figure after? I.e., the atw figures should be what to go by?

    I remember Wayne Schofield's rollers... Running in different gears gave different atw and fly figures. In a nutshell, higher the gear, higher the fly, but lower the atw. Lower the gear, the exact opposite.

    Anyway, brushing all this aside, I need to go against the other cars there on the day, and in that case, mine drastically underperformed. You can clearly see that something is going wrong just before 6000rpm. It should be pulling hard at this point...
  17. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #17
    that shows more the timing of the cam rather than the fueling imo.

    You can see on my power curve the drastic dip when the fueling fgoes spacko
  18. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #18
    Agreed. I'm well aware that 708's are not a wild camshaft, but they should still do a little better past 6000rpm than that IMO. I while back I had a long chat with Andy? (can't remember name) at GMC. He asked me what my atw figure was, (was 122 IIRC) when I told him he was shocked. He said 708s should be putting out at least 128bhp atw.

    Anyway, feck it. Bodies on, Omex ECU, then I'll be chasing you round Brands. Just not on the straights...
  19. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #19
    toad... (i have a diff and pugsport suspension to my dear xxx)

    I think you just need the timing adjusted, andy was saying on the cars hes doing atm hes gone less for peak power iirc and more midrange.

    John is the old man behind gmc.
  20. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #20
    Dammit, can't win... hehe
  21. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #21
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    Dammit, can't win... hehe
    im heavyer and not a very talented driver..
  22. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #22
    Mine should handle well, as it's very light. Tis about it...
  23. Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)
    #23
    I cant say i really like the coastdown method and would love to have a play in different gears to see if one of these dynos is truely accurate.
    In theory it should not matter what gear you are in

    a good rule of thumb is wheel bhp + 10 / 0.9
    I think your car needs to be set up for the big valve head and you will see some gains..
  24. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #24
    That's what Northmapton Motorsport said to me when I said I had a different gearbox than standard.

    Yep, things ain't right at the minute.
  25. Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)
    #25
    The issue with big valves is they can slow the air so you loose power low down and then can potentially gain at higher revs. Your cam timing may be able to be advanced a bit more and your fueling remapped to work with the new spec
  26. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #26
    Thanks Kam.
  27. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #27
    its pretty much the basic rule, the fueling / cams etc all need to be set up to suit the spec of the engine, its just like not mapping new cams at the end of the day, on a smaller scale!
  28. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #28
    Toad, dont forget that your car made 4/5 bhp less at the wheels than mine at Northampton? and that it has a longer rolling radias so showing slightly less bhp as well mate.

    As you said get boddies get it all set up and rock on
  29. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #29
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jpsaxo View Post
    Toad, dont forget that your car made 4/5 bhp less at the wheels than mine at Northampton? and that it has a longer rolling radias so showing slightly less bhp as well mate.

    As you said get boddies get it all set up and rock on


    Yeah, made somewhere around 119 atw @ Northampton. Down to 112 now... But apparently 158 at the fly at Austec, whereas only 145 at Northampton. So confusing.

    Defo will be getting bodies. Not sure if will ever be happy with the 708s though.
  30. West Midlands Joined: Nov 2005 Nuneaton (West Mids) Posts: 13835 '64 Volvo V40 R’Design, '89 Ph1 309 GTi, ‘97 Mk1 S
    #30
    Sorry its just a quick snap from the mobile Toad.

    Mine goes straight up.



    I wouldnt worry about it too much Toad, unless you have 2/3 print outs from various places to get an average you cant really go entirely on 1 print out

    How standard/near standard cars made 136bhp in some cases is clearly not entirely accurate

    Alex's GTI ran that and he'll tell you that its got over 150k miles on the clock, is asthmatic as a pensioner thats been on 60 a day for 50 years and it struggles to keep up with Lee's VTR which made about 105bhp iirc at Northampton Motorsport
  31. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #31
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post


    Yeah, made somewhere around 119 atw @ Northampton. Down to 112 now... But apparently 158 at the fly at Austec, whereas only 145 at Northampton. So confusing.

    Defo will be getting bodies. Not sure if will ever be happy with the 708s though.
    http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...=139765&page=3

    114 atw yours made at Northampton,
  32. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #32
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jpsaxo View Post
    Ah, gravey, so there's not much difference there then. I must have been thinking about lb/ft or something?
  33. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #33
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by willsy View Post
    Sorry its just a quick snap from the mobile Toad.

    Mine goes straight up.



    I wouldnt worry about it too much Toad, unless you have 2/3 print outs from various places to get an average you cant really go entirely on 1 print out

    How standard/near standard cars made 136bhp in some cases is clearly not entirely accurate

    Alex's GTI ran that and he'll tell you that its got over 150k miles on the clock, is asthmatic as a pensioner thats been on 60 a day for 50 years and it struggles to keep up with Lee's VTR which made about 105bhp iirc at Northampton Motorsport
    Hmm, that's interesting. And funny too!
  34. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #34
    And Alex's is no quicker than my bro's xsi according to form? its how it feels on the road as i always say

    You were probs thinking of mine Toad, mine made 119atw at Northampton
  35. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #35
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jpsaxo View Post
    And Alex's is no quicker than my bro's xsi according to form? its how it feels on the road as i always say

    You were probs thinking of mine Toad, mine made 119atw at Northampton
    Just had a good read through that link and refreshed my memory.

    That's right, I remember ours were fairly close, but I thought you had more than 119 TBH. I think the wheel figures from Austec and also Northampton are pretty accurate. However, Austec's fly figures seemed pretty crazy, but then again, maybe they are right due to what Ryan has been saying about the way they calculate the drag.

    My car has really good torque, so there's power in there somewhere, lol. Just need to get it to rev better.
  36. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #36
    Oh, that print out you posted, it's more recent than Northampton isn't it? What were the results?
  37. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #37
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    Oh, that print out you posted, it's more recent than Northampton isn't it? What were the results?
    Me or Matt?
  38. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #38
    LMAO! I thought that was your post JP! The similar yellow avatar fooled the Toadus! ROFL.
  39. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #39
    Lol you plank, Matts car is nothing like mine!
  40. West Midlands Joined: Nov 2005 Nuneaton (West Mids) Posts: 13835 '64 Volvo V40 R’Design, '89 Ph1 309 GTi, ‘97 Mk1 S
    #40
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    LMAO! I thought that was your post JP! The similar yellow avatar fooled the Toadus! ROFL.
    lol still early morning, just woken up?

    Figures were really sketchy at Northampton, standard cars there actually seemed reasonably accurate, but modded ones sucked, Josh's results being a prime example of being screwed over
  41. West Midlands Joined: Nov 2005 Nuneaton (West Mids) Posts: 13835 '64 Volvo V40 R’Design, '89 Ph1 309 GTi, ‘97 Mk1 S
    #41
    Still havn't forgotten about you mate (Josh) just out carrying on with morning number 3 of clay bar action- my paintwork is shocking & fingers are feeling abused
  42. West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL
    #42
    why all the mentions of my car
    it drives like shit

    im on the case though and may have something relevent to this thread in a few months
  43. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #43
    So, no offence JP / Matt, I'm obviously on auto-pilot.
  44. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #44
    haha none taken Toad, or Matt. Just get back to me whenever,

    Alex - I had your car on the mind, wonder why that was
  45. West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL
    #45
    haha not a clue josh
  46. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #46
    I thought your car looked really nice Alex, even though it's a 60 a day man...
  47. West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL
    #47
    it is rather asthmatic lol
  48. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #48
    Lol Alex...
  49. West Midlands Joined: Nov 2005 Nuneaton (West Mids) Posts: 13835 '64 Volvo V40 R’Design, '89 Ph1 309 GTi, ‘97 Mk1 S
    #49
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Alex-VTS View Post
    why all the mentions of my car
    You're famous now that you're a mod

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    I thought your car looked really nice Alex, even though it's a 60 a day man...
    Thats what i keep telling him, i really like the colour too, its looking really nice with the red/anthracite type theme- He doesnt like the red though
  50. West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL
    #50
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by willsy View Post
    You're famous now that you're a mod
    haha e celeb ftl
    I even get phone calls asking how to do stuff
  51. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #51
    like i said dude id not stress to much about the figures.

    I dont think they were mega innacurate as people are banging on about though, espec when a few cars made book figures or in the rx-8s case 2bhp down.