Uber low coilover question

22nd March 2009, 16:25

Right, I'm looking to really lower my Saxo VTS, it already has 60mm lowering springs on it which I think have been on there for some time now so may be sitting even lower.
Trouble is I want to go lower, somewhere in the reigon of 70-100mm. I'll have to decide on the exact ride height when the shocks and wheels are on the car. I don't want to go rediculously low but I don't want to run out of lowering before I get it looking how I want.
I've been a vehicle tech for 8 years now and know all the risks and execessive wear that will be caused by going so low, but the car doesn't get used much and will hopefully be a show car when its done so I'm happy to take the risk.
I'm looking at getting some coilovers but most are listed as only going down to 60-65mm.
Does anyone have any experience of any kits that will go lower? I know you can get FK Konig's and remove helper springs but I don't seem to be able to find them for sale anywhere!?
I've also found that GAZ GHA kits say upto 65mm but they can go lower, but does anyone have any first hand experience of this, as its a lot of money should they not do what I want them to!?
I have E-mailed lots of manufacturers and sellers but very few give me any of the information I'm after!
Any help would be very gratefully recieved and if anyone has any pictures of uber low Saxo's on coilovers along with the kit fitted to them that'd be awesome!

Many thanks

Moo

22nd March 2009, 16:32

well my friend bought some spax coilovers, and his car is lowered 120mm :|, so u must be able to find some for a saxo, p.s: his car is a punto so might fit aswell so keep shopping around and you will find some

22nd March 2009, 19:23

ive done a bit of lowering on the plus side of 60mm and found the best way is get the cheapest set of coilovers u can and mod them a little and its a good set up for little money. Do a search and find a guide i made on jamex coilovers.

22nd March 2009, 19:52

look at lee's saxo. he's pretty much the perfect hight for 15's. i think he's down about 100mm using coilovers 106pete made.

i think they're your best option.

23rd March 2009, 13:16

moo have u got bbs rs's?

23rd March 2009, 13:30

the second question is will they look decent.
The problem with the cheap kits is they are made cheaply. They are chrome coated, but will flake, rust and look shite after a while - not good for a show car.

KW use stainless coilover units and some other manufacturers do too.

Kev

23rd March 2009, 18:17

Pete I do indeed have BBS Rs's and very chuffed with them i am too. I've taken a look at your guide to making the coilovers and although it's interesting it's a completely different route to what i was expecting lol. My plan was to do all the work on the car to the highest quality I can afford so as I only need to do it all once although KW suspension is mortgage money and I can't stretch to that.

23rd March 2009, 18:34

if it going to be a show car why not get hydrolics ??

24th March 2009, 12:15

FK Konig's go low enuff ben got them from www.gsfcarparts.com orginally and they went down about 120mm, think they where like £720 but had a discount down to like £570 when he bought them like 3 years back now though, ull prob have to ring them see if the still stock them, as there not on the site!
As for the GAZ GHA ill be putting a set on this week or next so ill let u know, they say 65mm max on the spring, but on the sites ive seen says will go lower just doesnt reccommend it due to excessive wear on components etc. However they dont have helper springs like most coilovers so we'll see. Gonna wind them down and see, hope they dont go coilbound after 65mm, keep an eye out on my progress thread and ill tryn let u now in this post what happens with them aswell

24th March 2009, 13:25

kam the cheap suspension kits arnt plated at all there just ally sleves with anadised blue locking rings. if you keep them greased u wont have a problem.

moo ill send you some pics later in the week and show u how the cheap set looks.

3rd April 2009, 20:31

fitted my gaz coilovers and they'll go ALOT lower than 65mm id say to around 100mm atleast, the kit is top quality for the price, had it on afew days and is amazing

3rd April 2009, 21:50

Is it just me or is this a little pointless? Your talking about going so low you would have to remove the original bump stops. Rather than spend a fortune why not just remove everything? Its not as if you will have suspension or a car than handles anyhow. If its just for show why no just remove the rear dampers and use a steel rod in that back with rubber eye bushes. You could do a similar thing on the front as well.

3rd April 2009, 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by AXracing

Is it just me or is this a little pointless? Your talking about going so low you would have to remove the original bump stops. Rather than spend a fortune why not just remove everything? Its not as if you will have suspension or a car than handles anyhow. If its just for show why no just remove the rear dampers and use a steel rod in that back with rubber eye bushes. You could do a similar thing on the front as well.

ax racing this post is completely stupid and well it makes you look like a right noob

id like to meet you face to face just to prove a low car can handle before my coilovers broke my car handled well despite all the bollocks about dont go lower than 30mm for handling im doing about 80-90mm and i could quiet happily say it still handles really well.

by monday i should be running my new suspension setup which includes compbrake topmounts 200lb springs pugsport group n tarmac dampers pugpsort revalved billy group n rear dampers

4th April 2009, 00:05

It was a serious suggestion. My logic was you lower the 3inches and your already sitting in the bump stops. Some were talking about lowering 5 or even 6 inches and in so your talking about having effectively no suspension. Fair enough if this is what you want you don't have to spend a fortune on a all singing all dancing dampers and springs and its not going to do you much good if your not planning on using suspension. In the past race cars that are super low have done away with suspicion in there entirety but still used rubber bushings to get a little compliancy. There is no reason you could not do the same with a Saxo. But this sort of setup is not seen very often these days, even F1 cars actually have quite a lot of suspension travel. The problem you get is that unless your driving on a perfectly flat surface you require suspension to control weight movement and maximise your contact with the road. Race tracks are flat so you can get away with being low but even then if your chucking your car over the curbs you still require a fair amount of travel. On the road is even more uneven and with is why tarmac rally cars still have a fair amount of suspension. Hence why race and rally Saxos though often low will never be as low as what some people are after going in this thread.

4th April 2009, 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by AXracing

It was a serious suggestion. My logic was you lower the 3inches and your already sitting in the bump stops. Some were talking about lowering 5 or even 6 inches and in so your talking about having effectively no suspension. Fair enough if this is what you want you don't have to spend a fortune on a all singing all dancing dampers and springs and its not going to do you much good if your not planning on using suspension. In the past race cars that are super low have done away with suspicion in there entirety but still used rubber bushings to get a little compliancy. There is no reason you could not do the same with a Saxo. But this sort of setup is not seen very often these days, even F1 cars actually have quite a lot of suspension travel. The problem you get is that unless your driving on a perfectly flat surface you require suspension to control weight movement and maximise your contact with the road. Race tracks are flat so you can get away with being low but even then if your chucking your car over the curbs you still require a fair amount of travel. On the road is even more uneven and with is why tarmac rally cars still have a fair amount of suspension. Hence why race and rally Saxos though often low will never be as low as what some people are after going in this thread.

tbh thats all just spam, what ur saying is why dont u just use steel rods etc then saying u cant use that setup on a road car?!!! If u look at my progress thread my cars only down at around 65mm at the mo, and handles pritty good, I will be going lower and tbh will still be better by a mile than my old mk1 which was lowered on springs and standard shocks!
At the end of the day why post up in this thread most peolpe who are giving advice etc are running low the proper way/ the best way they can. I personally accept the increased wear rate etc.
Ur into ur racing or watever im into the looks, I will be stretching the tyres on wide wheels so wont be hamering it anywhere etc after that, but ull prob say why have tyres at all!

My cars not setup for optimum performance if it was it would be a completle different story, my setup achieve the perpuse (sp) it was inteded for my car!

4th April 2009, 11:04

i agree half with what hes said, but unless uve been out in a car the properly lowered this amount u wont appreciate quite how smooth the ride is, it doesnt seem much diffrent to being 60mm low, its comfertable and aslong as ur not hiting huge bumps at hi speed ive not had it bottom out yet.

but hes handeling is comprimised, i find with the cars ive done they tend to skip around corners and doesnt give much assurance right on the limit, but then not everyone is a track driver and feels the need to drive on the limit.

4th April 2009, 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by LEE_VTR1

id like to meet you face to face just to prove a low car can handle before my coilovers broke my car handled well despite all the bollocks about dont go lower than 30mm for handling im doing about 80-90mm and i could quiet happily say it still handles really well.

it would be worth you reading up on the effect low suspension has on the geometry, roll centres and the likes of bump steer. On the road also suspension travel is really important. I guarantee that with a 90mm drop the handling is compromised

On the cars we build a lot of time and fabrication is spent in this area. The 309 ride height was set at 3inches before the suspension even went near the car. Mounting points we then located to keep the optimum geometry.

It makes the difference between what you think is a good handling car and one that really is.

4th April 2009, 12:32

To be fair, Lee's car is dam low !!!

4th April 2009, 19:25

ive driven lees car and it does handle well for how low it is
its soon to be on a much better setup soon

ax your idea is similar to the origonal mini suspension (with the rubber blocks and dampers)
it could work but would be a lot less forgiving than lees setup on the roads (even on 200lb spings)

im not a huge fan of lowness myself (my cars only about 15-20mm down)
but lee is slowly showing you can keep at least some handeling down low

4th April 2009, 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

it would be worth you reading up on the effect low suspension has on the geometry, roll centres and the likes of bump steer. On the road also suspension travel is really important. I guarantee that with a 90mm drop the handling is compromised

On the cars we build a lot of time and fabrication is spent in this area. The 309 ride height was set at 3inches before the suspension even went near the car. Mounting points we then located to keep the optimum geometry.

It makes the difference between what you think is a good handling car and one that really is.

i understand the geometry changes kam, thats why im looking at mounting stuff differently like tracking arm's etc, there not alot that can be done about wishbones or driveshaft mounting position's as there fixed but there is room for movement where steering arms go using bearing jointed track rods rather than the original saxo style track rods this meaning they can be mounted underneath the tracking arm rather than on top so you reduce how much stress and strain is on the steering there this freeing up some geometry that is lost, also your 309 is an all out monster mine is a road car which will never see track as its got one purpose and thats for me to enjoy every second driving it and still being able to keep it well setup and balanced without spending crazy penny's.

5th April 2009, 09:08

Wow this thread has gone exactly the way I'd hoped it wouldn't lol. I did state in the original post that I was really ony after advice about which products could help me acheive the LOOK I was after I'm fully aware of other effects on the car but because it's the stance i'm looking for i'm just gonna have to be a grown up about it and adjust my driving accordingly.

I've now managed to get the FK coilovers i've been after and they're a really nice product (although I do feel a little bad using such a high spec product to acheive such a vein goal lol) and with the helper springs removed the front is now down around 90mm (but there is still room to go lower, should I wish). At this height the dampers still have around 40mm of clearance to the bumpstops and the rear is around the same so it's not tight against them with no travel at all. My only concern about the setup is that the helper springs were there for a reason and now with the car jacked up the springs aren't seated so were the car to become airbourne there could be a risk.

Although the cars only been loooooooow for a day I am quite suprised by the ride as it's not so bone jaringly bad as i'd expected with front and rear dampers set on medium. I've also experemented with a few speed bumps and not had any major contact yet which suprised me, the only grounding i've had was over a pretty gently crest out of a petrol station.

So to sum up. Chuffed to bits.

Before:

After:

Thanks for everyones input

5th April 2009, 10:02

juust one question

ifyou have room to go lower without the helper in that means with it in you wont be much higher
and then you wont have the issue with unseating them

5th April 2009, 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex-VTS

juust one question

ifyou have room to go lower without the helper in that means with it in you wont be much higher
and then you wont have the issue with unseating them

The remaining distance we can go is less than the length of the helper springs!
Will probably be going lower on the front soon anyways

6th April 2009, 23:45

ye front needs to go down abit further fella, if ur that concerned about the springs unseating u could always get some custom smaller helper springs? have u had to cut the bumpstops down at all? Stupid question but how can u even check how far ur off the bumpstops on the front when they sit in the top of the shock covers?