AST coilovers - track set up advice please

23rd March 2009, 18:42

Hi guys.

I've got my heart set on these coilovers:

http://www.kamracing.co.uk/manufactu...geot-1283.html

I'm going to be going with the adjustable top mounts too!

But I need to know quite a few things before I dive straight in...

a) What springs should I get for them? Kam mentioned that you can get an off-the-shelf 230lb track spring...

b) What dampers should I fit on the rear?

c) What torsion bars should I fit on the rear?

d) My car is a lot lighter than standard. How much a part will this play in choosing the right bits for 'b' and 'c' ?

Many thanks in advance!

23rd March 2009, 19:03

weight has a massive factor on what you should choose..

look at the megane R26R for example, it uses softer springs but yet handles a lot better.

im using 225lb on mine and it feels very good on track.

if its a track car then you need to be stiffer than normal ovbiously but its very hard to say a specific spring rating, you the driver will need input into that.
start off with a good all round setup then fine tweek the spring rates and arb sizes.

a good setup would be 230lb front 22mm torsion bars rear and then work from there. dont think you need to go very very very hard because of how light your car is. as for rear damers dont ast do any for the rear??

23rd March 2009, 19:04

Spot on Danny, thanks.

So what rear dampers you reckon, to go with those 22mm torsion bars?

23rd March 2009, 19:17

well you have a fair few options really.

you could go for the "proper" pugsport group n rears wich are fucking hardcore but expensive.

http://www.specialtuninguk.co.uk/aca...ce_Tarmac.html

or you could get some avo with bump/rebound adjustment.

you could phone gaz/leda and tey could supply you dampers in almost any application including remote resevoir dampers.

or if want to splash out you could get some rear proflex remote resevoirs for around £800 each?

id personnaly spak to kam/ ast and see if they do a nice rear damper to match.

23rd March 2009, 19:25

Cheers Danny boy!

I really don't have a clue what to go for, so any bit of advice is welcoming.

Feck me.

The Pugsport ones are £200 each! Then there's the VAT.

23rd March 2009, 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Cheers Danny boy!

I really don't have a clue what to go for, so any bit of advice is welcoming.

Feck me.

The Pugsport ones are £200 each! Then there's the VAT.

yep they are expensive.

first thing i would do is get in touch with ast.

failing that, you could always buy bilstein group n's like mine. they handle 22's i beleive.

23rd March 2009, 19:50

OK, nice one mate.

23rd March 2009, 19:52

I fitted solid top mounts to my clio sport and my god what a difference they make, really firms the front up to give a good feel of whats happening under you.

23rd March 2009, 19:56

I'm looking at getting the adjustable AST top mounts.

23rd March 2009, 22:34

Danny bear in mind the R26R uses softer springs because it is so much lighter. The R26 has very hard springs as standard, lighter weight will effectively make the springs harder. Springs are rated in lb/in, therefore if there is less weight they will compress less

Anyway back slightly on topic, 230lb is good, 22mm torsion bars are a bit big for that though. I'd want to be using 250-300lb fronts with 22mm bars, unless you're messing with front and rear ARBs?!

23rd March 2009, 22:35

grpN bilstein rears definitely don't damp 22mm bars sufficiently also.

23rd March 2009, 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexR

Danny bear in mind the R26R uses softer springs because it is so much lighter. The R26 has very hard springs as standard, lighter weight will effectively make the springs harder. Springs are rated in lb/in, therefore if there is less weight they will compress less

Anyway back slightly on topic, 230lb is good, 22mm torsion bars are a bit big for that though. I'd want to be using 250-300lb fronts with 22mm bars, unless you're messing with front and rear ARBs?!

thats the point i was making lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexR

grpN bilstein rears definitely don't damp 22mm bars sufficiently also.

what rear dampers do?

23rd March 2009, 22:40

Pugsport UK bilsteins(have huge pistons and black dust covers) or pugsport france dampers(there are a few types, get the ones on the page with the 22mm bars)

23rd March 2009, 22:42

22 and 23mm bars are discontinued in france also...

23rd March 2009, 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexR

22 and 23mm bars are discontinued in france also...

looking like some of our engineering comapny's will be getting some work form us..

the uk bilsteins are the one jp has just bought ja?

23rd March 2009, 23:03

Yeah looks like that's what he's got.

To be fair bilstein will revalve any of their stuff if you ask them nicely enough

24th March 2009, 00:06

Uh oh. I didn't know about the torsion bar shortage.

I wasn't thinking about changing the ARBs... So if I went 230lb springs with the ASTs, do you think I could leave the stock torsion bars on? If so, what dampers would best suit do you think?

24th March 2009, 10:27

I have 23mm Torsion bars, 26mm ARB and the peugeot sport france rear dampers. i can confirm that the back is very hard and will likley skip about on public roads. Really is a very track/smooth tarmac orientated setup. Trackdays, hillclimbs etc.

I can also confirm that Leda make good coilovers. The quality of my adjustable ones are pretty good. Cannot comment on AST stuff but im sure they are more then sufficient to do the job suitably.

If you wre thinking of using some very sticky tyres and big torsion bars, you should consider stiffer springs.

24th March 2009, 10:57

Having read this thread it looks like your set up is going to be similar to mine Toad,

There is a guy that is sorting me out with 22mm rear t/b's at a very reasonable price, maybe we could buy together, when are you looking to buy?

I keep PM'ing Kam about getting me some 250lb AST springs but he never gets back to me

Again we could both get a set... Also i still need to order the AST top mounts so again we could get a set ordered together and get a tad of discount...

Also Danny your right mine are the group n UK pugsport billies

24th March 2009, 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by JessopVTS

I have 23mm Torsion bars, 26mm ARB and the peugeot sport france rear dampers. i can confirm that the back is very hard and will likley skip about on public roads. Really is a very track/smooth tarmac orientated setup. Trackdays, hillclimbs etc.

I can also confirm that Leda make good coilovers. The quality of my adjustable ones are pretty good. Cannot comment on AST stuff but im sure they are more then sufficient to do the job suitably.

If you wre thinking of using some very sticky tyres and big torsion bars, you should consider stiffer springs.

Thanks for the info Jessop.

Considering Alex suggested that 22mm TBs are a bit much for 230lb front springs, 23mm TBs seems obviously even more OTT. What are you running on the front?

24th March 2009, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsaxo

Having read this thread it looks like your set up is going to be similar to mine Toad,

There is a guy that is sorting me out with 22mm rear t/b's at a very reasonable price, maybe we could buy together, when are you looking to buy?

I keep PM'ing Kam about getting me some 250lb AST springs but he never gets back to me

Again we could both get a set... Also i still need to order the AST top mounts so again we could get a set ordered together and get a tad of discount...

Also Danny your right mine are the group n UK pugsport billies

Yo JP!

I'm good to go monies wise. So I'm more than up for doubling up with you.

Thing is though, Alex just mentioned above that 22mm TBs were too much for 230lb front springs. What do you think?

So yeah, we could double up on:

- Coilover springs
- Adjustable top mounts
- Torsion bars (if we can work out what to get...)

24th March 2009, 14:26

im sure pugsport 21mm ones will do

24th March 2009, 14:27

AH, didn't know you could get 21mm ones.

So is standard 19mm?

24th March 2009, 23:50

Just go 250lb springs Toad and go with the 22mm bars! Do you want to PM Kam and let me know, because he never gets back to me regarding the 250lb springs!

24th March 2009, 23:54

just get your springs from faulkner?

25th March 2009, 01:29

have you thought about emailing kam rather than just pming.

it might get a better response.

25th March 2009, 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

have you thought about emailing kam rather than just pming.

it might get a better response.

Ill do that, and e-mail AST direct. If not then i'll just get them from Faulkner as you say Danny!

25th March 2009, 08:50

i've been on holiday for a week so i have a lot to catch up on!
Would have answered yesterday but had some fun with my antivirus not catching a trojan and I had to backup and format the work computer!

I'll call AST today to see their stock availability.
250lb might be a little stiff on the road but the AST units are high quality so will be a better ride than most at that spring rate.
Under 250lb I would look at the Bilstein Group N's on the rear.
i've got a set of 23mm torsion bars in stock but i think these will be a bit stiff for most.
Saying that i'm sure Sandy told me that 180lb front springs will match 21mm bars so 22 or 23mm may work nicely.
I haven't really the time to sit and do any maths to double check though just this minute

Kev

25th March 2009, 09:31

Many thanks Kev, i would call you but being over in Australia makes things a little difficult, and expensive! Lol, My car is mainly going to be a track car so thats cool about the springs rate.

Drop me a PM or just post on here your finding's once you have spoken to AST

25th March 2009, 09:53

KamRacing - (sorry i dont know your name! d'oh)

How do you rate the genine bilstein group n rears compared to the PSF tarmac spec ones? Just out of curiosity.

250lb will be stiff on the road, not very good on bumpy road sufaces coming off roundabouts etc if your intending on using it for occasional fast road use, however on flat surfaces it will be great. Im sure the AST dampers can/will be valved suitably for that sort of spring rate.

Also, just out of curiosity. How much are the competition [next level] coilovers with remote resevoirs etc? I dont plan on purchasing any time soon im just curious and dont wish to waste AST's time. This something that you could possibly look into for a broader range of customers at KamRacing ?

IIRC Proflex & Ohlins with adjustable rebound etc are about 800 > 1000 a corner ?

25th March 2009, 13:42

Excellent. Now we're getting somehere!

25th March 2009, 14:37

Im sure you can stretch for a set of proflex fully adjustables Toad

25th March 2009, 15:57

At that price? No no no no ...

26th March 2009, 10:42

I think 250lb should be a nice comprimise between making it good on track but still just about drivable on the road

26th March 2009, 10:58

I need to consider the stiffness alteration with a lighter car... I might be OK on 230's?

26th March 2009, 11:32

Mine will be just as light soon enough

26th March 2009, 11:41

Oh really... You've got a lot to take oowt!

27th March 2009, 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsaxo

Many thanks Kev, i would call you but being over in Australia makes things a little difficult, and expensive! Lol, My car is mainly going to be a track car so thats cool about the springs rate.

Drop me a PM or just post on here your finding's once you have spoken to AST

its only taken me 4 days to get someone to answer the phone at the distributor! Basically the guy who sorts the AST stuff is in Holland with AST until Monday which sucks.
Looking at some prices - Faulkner are looking cheaper. If you can live without orange springs it may be the faster avenue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JessopVTS

KamRacing - (sorry i dont know your name! d'oh)

How do you rate the genine bilstein group n rears compared to the PSF tarmac spec ones? Just out of curiosity.

250lb will be stiff on the road, not very good on bumpy road sufaces coming off roundabouts etc if your intending on using it for occasional fast road use, however on flat surfaces it will be great. Im sure the AST dampers can/will be valved suitably for that sort of spring rate.

Also, just out of curiosity. How much are the competition [next level] coilovers with remote resevoirs etc? I dont plan on purchasing any time soon im just curious and dont wish to waste AST's time. This something that you could possibly look into for a broader range of customers at KamRacing ?

IIRC Proflex & Ohlins with adjustable rebound etc are about 800 > 1000 a corner ?

I believe the Bilstein group N's are a little softer than the PSF ones. If you are going 23mm+ torsion bars at the rear the PSF ones may be needed.

The competition coilover complete kit is hitting £3.5k + vat so really are not cheap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsaxo

I think 250lb should be a nice comprimise between making it good on track but still just about drivable on the road

I think if you want to use that stiffness on the road then you really need to look at the spring manufacturer you plan to use.
I've used 280lb eibach race springs and they were just about ok as they are probably the best on the market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

I need to consider the stiffness alteration with a lighter car... I might be OK on 230's?

Probably yes. Your tyre choice may mean you get too much body roll on the track due to higher cornering speeds but its certainly a good starting point.
You might want to consider running something like a 280lb spring with a softer helper spring.

Kev

27th March 2009, 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

its only taken me 4 days to get someone to answer the phone at the distributor! Basically the guy who sorts the AST stuff is in Holland with AST until Monday which sucks.
Looking at some prices - Faulkner are looking cheaper. If you can live without orange springs it may be the faster avenue.

I believe the Bilstein group N's are a little softer than the PSF ones. If you are going 23mm+ torsion bars at the rear the PSF ones may be needed.

The competition coilover complete kit is hitting £3.5k + vat so really are not cheap.

I think if you want to use that stiffness on the road then you really need to look at the spring manufacturer you plan to use.
I've used 280lb eibach race springs and they were just about ok as they are probably the best on the market.

Probably yes. Your tyre choice may mean you get too much body roll on the track due to higher cornering speeds but its certainly a good starting point.
You might want to consider running something like a 280lb spring with a softer helper spring.

Kev

Thanks for your efforts on this one Kev - Faulkner is fine by me although i think i'd still rather go AST simply so they 100% match the dampers if you know where im coming from. If you can get in touch with AST early next week thats fine by me and get back to us on your findings.

Im running R888 tyres on mine Kev, with 22mm bars on the rear and the black covered billie group n rears.

27th March 2009, 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

Probably yes. Your tyre choice may mean you get too much body roll on the track due to higher cornering speeds but its certainly a good starting point.
You might want to consider running something like a 280lb spring with a softer helper spring.

Kev

Thanks Kev.

Please explain to me how a might do this with the ASTs?

Cheers!

27th March 2009, 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsaxo

Thanks for your efforts on this one Kev - Faulkner is fine by me although i think i'd still rather go AST simply so they 100% match the dampers if you know where im coming from. If you can get in touch with AST early next week thats fine by me and get back to us on your findings.

Im running R888 tyres on mine Kev, with 22mm bars on the rear and the black covered billie group n rears.

Alex advised me against the 22mm rear TB's, he thinks they'd be too snappy for me.

2nd April 2009, 14:05

Any News on these springs from AST yet Kam?