News : Datashift: Predator Power Graph

1. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

   #1 24th March 2009, 18:40

   Hi all,
   
   I took my car to Janspeed today, and gave it a bit of a mapping on their rolling road. After a tweak here and a nip and tuck there, here is the power graph.
   
   **THIS IS WHEELS BHP**
   
   
   
   
   
   I'm quite pleased with this. According to theory, to convert from wheel to flywheel on a FWD car, you add 10bhp and Divide by 0.9.
   
   This would give a peak power of 143bhp at the flywheel
   
   Mods: Supersprint Exhaust System, a rubbish cone air filter and the Predator ECU
   
   Andy
   
   Take control!
2. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

   #2 24th March 2009, 18:46

   118bhp atw on stock cams? Mine has 112bhp atw with 708s... What's going on?
3. raunchz Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R

   #3 24th March 2009, 18:48

   Like it a lot !!! The curve looks pretty smooth too - good work!
4. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

   #4 24th March 2009, 18:50

   We made some gains mainly at the bottom end, and as such I'm pretty pleased with the torque curve! It's nice and flat and feels just like it looks when driving!
   
   
   
   Andy
5. raunchz Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R

   #5 24th March 2009, 18:51

   How long did you roughly spend on the dyno tweaking the map ?
6. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

   #6 24th March 2009, 18:53

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by raunchz How long did you roughly spend on the dyno tweaking the map ?

   Ross,
   
   5 runs, so 40 minutes I guess? Nothing dramatic.
   
   Andy
7. ryhornvtr Frequent Poster Joined: Sep 2005 norwich United Kingdom (England) Posts: 821 2003 posi VTS

   #7 24th March 2009, 18:55

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Toad 118bhp atw on stock cams? Mine has 112bhp atw with 708s... What's going on?

   112 seems low imo. Mine was 103 atw when it was running badly, not been rr'd since.
8. user_7256 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 7657

   #8 24th March 2009, 18:58

   impressive figures there Andy
9. PETE-VTR Established Member Joined: Aug 2008 york/ north yorkshire Posts: 1953

   #9 24th March 2009, 18:58

   wow thats impressive!
   
   good work man!!!
10. Sophia_Bush Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2007 Shropshire Posts: 9994 Moonstone Blue 106 GTi

    #10 24th March 2009, 20:42

    yes I like that
11. fossie Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Oct 2004 Spennymoor, United Kingdom (England) Posts: 3742 Saxo MK2 VTS

    #11 24th March 2009, 20:50

    Damn thats a pretty good result matey
12. vtr-richie Regular Poster Joined: Jan 2008 Farnham Posts: 317 MK2 VTR

    #12 24th March 2009, 21:17

    swaheet well done andy better than the original pnp rcd dyno...
13. evans1089 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jun 2007 Chesterfield Posts: 8935 Ibiza Cupra 204bhp

    #13 24th March 2009, 22:02

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by luthor1 I'm quite pleased with this. According to theory, to convert from wheel to flywheel on a FWD car, you add 10bhp and Divide by 0.9.

    So to work out bhp at the wheel is it minus 10bhp and times by 0.9?
    
    (a-10-bhp)*0.9=?
14. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

    #14 24th March 2009, 23:16

    I've just realised what you meant...
    
    To go from flywheel to wheels, multiply by 0.9 and minus 10.
    
    Andy
15. williamsvts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 northumberland Posts: 7693 pulsar gtir, mk4 astra sxi

    #15 25th March 2009, 08:28

    good results that. well done with it.
16. Steve Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Mar 2005 Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 19910 CW Honda Integra DC5

    #16 25th March 2009, 08:39

    need a bigger graph in future
    good work mate.
17. williamsvts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 northumberland Posts: 7693 pulsar gtir, mk4 astra sxi

    #17 25th March 2009, 08:41

    it was yesterday, must of been resized???
18. gouldy87 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 3932

    #18 25th March 2009, 10:54

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by luthor1 I've just realised what you meant... To go from flywheel to wheels, multiply by 0.9 and minus 10. Andy

    very inaccurate method of calculating
19. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

    #19 25th March 2009, 11:01

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gouldy87 very inaccurate method of calculating

    David Baker at Puma Racing seems to know what he's talking about...
    
    http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/trans.htm
    
    He is the guy who developed the near-200bhp head for QEP on that MAD engine...
    
    I posted the WHEELS BHP and Torque to prevent arguments on my thread, and negativity, so my 'calculation' of peak power, take with a pinch of salt!
    
    Group Hug!
    
    Andy
20. lcheater Frequent Poster Joined: Jul 2005 Southampton United Kingdom (England) Posts: 811 1999 Saxo VTS 2008 Vectra 2.8 V6 Turbo 1987 Rang

    #20 25th March 2009, 11:02

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gouldy87 very inaccurate method of calculating

    Taken from http://www.dyno-power-run.com
    
    To reflect the fact that power losses are high for low powered cars and vice versa we have
    use the following equations which have been found to correlate well with real world transmission losses.
    
    FWD cars - add 10 bhp to the wheel figure and divide the result by 0.9
    RWD cars - add 10 bhp to the wheel figure and divide the result by 0.88
    4WD cars - add 10bhp to the wheel figure and divide the result by 0.84
    
    Please Note: these flywheel figures are not "gospel" - they are good realistic averages. The measured wheel bhp can change depending on tyre pressure, tyre size, suspension angles and other things which won't affect flywheel power - so the actual transmission loss % will also change.
21. Slammed_Posi_Vtr Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Nov 2006 Royal Tunbridge Wells y0 Posts: 2602 Icelandic VTR

    #21 25th March 2009, 11:40

    So what are you saying, i'm missing the point here!
    
    This impressive power figure and the smooth curve is due to the predator ecu? how much are you looking at to have you do what you have done to your car mapping wise + buying and fitting the pred ecu then?
    
    hope that makes sense
    
    Jon
22. lcheater Frequent Poster Joined: Jul 2005 Southampton United Kingdom (England) Posts: 811 1999 Saxo VTS 2008 Vectra 2.8 V6 Turbo 1987 Rang

    #22 25th March 2009, 11:55

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Slammed_Posi_Vtr So what are you saying, i'm missing the point here! This impressive power figure and the smooth curve is due to the predator ecu? how much are you looking at to have you do what you have done to your car mapping wise + buying and fitting the pred ecu then? hope that makes sense Jon

    Yes you are correct, the smooth curve and impressive power figure has been achieved via the predator ECU.
    
    Details of the group buy for the ECU can be found here:
    
    http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=216905

    1 user thanked this post: Slammed_Posi_Vtr
23. Slammed_Posi_Vtr Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Nov 2006 Royal Tunbridge Wells y0 Posts: 2602 Icelandic VTR

    #23 25th March 2009, 11:59

    Just checked the predator thread, bring on a 3 plug ecu for a vtr!!!
    
    I've also noticed that you would be willing to do a group buy for the pred ecu on a furio, would you be interesting in doing this for a vtr???? im sure you would have loads of interest !
24. Ryanp Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut

    #24 25th March 2009, 12:23

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gouldy87 very inaccurate method of calculating

    The most commonly accepted way of calculating throughout the industry tbh.

    1 user thanked this post: lcheater
25. JamesRm Forum Section Moderator Joined: Aug 2008 Liverpool Posts: 15517 Saxo VTR

    #25 25th March 2009, 12:54

    On a VTS i take it?
26. Ryanp Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut

    #26 25th March 2009, 13:05

    yes andy has a vts.
27. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

    #27 25th March 2009, 13:12

    Yeah got myself a little grey VTS... in my Sig picture!
    
    Andy
28. Ferg Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jun 2007 Maidstone, Kent Posts: 4928 Clio 197 Cup

    #28 25th March 2009, 13:25

    That is really impressive ... I think I need Predator in my life. (Not the member )
29. JamesRm Forum Section Moderator Joined: Aug 2008 Liverpool Posts: 15517 Saxo VTR

    #29 25th March 2009, 13:29

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by luthor1 Yeah got myself a little grey VTS... in my Sig picture! Andy

    
    Lol i have just spotted the 16v badge on the rear.
    
    I feel like a D**K
30. Ryanp Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut

    #30 25th March 2009, 13:32

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SaXo_vtr123 Lol i have just spotted the 16v badge on the rear. I feel like a D**K

    I dont think you even need to look at the car, the figures alone would tell you its not an 8v by a long shot lol!
31. JamesRm Forum Section Moderator Joined: Aug 2008 Liverpool Posts: 15517 Saxo VTR

    #31 25th March 2009, 13:33

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ryan I dont think you even need to look at the car, the figures alone would tell you its not an 8v by a long shot lol!

    The figures where what made me post my first post about it being an "S"
32. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

    #32 25th March 2009, 13:48

    I'll let you off - the badge looks pretty tiny on my piccie!!
    
    Thanks Ferg.... culmination of an awful lot of work now... I'm also enjoying factory-feel idle on the stock idle valve finally! Totally transforms the car.
    
    My evenings now involve remote-controlling customers PC's over the internet and flashing the firmware on their ECU's!!
    
    ManC can testify to that!
    
    It is quite funny watching the software over the internet with the car idling and, watching the gauges go round and setting up the various parameters from the comfort of my living room!
    
    The future is remote control...
    
    Andy
33. DJDannyB Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jun 2008 Stockport Posts: 2687

    #33 25th March 2009, 14:51

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by luthor1 I'll let you off - the badge looks pretty tiny on my piccie!! Thanks Ferg.... culmination of an awful lot of work now... I'm also enjoying factory-feel idle on the stock idle valve finally! Totally transforms the car. My evenings now involve remote-controlling customers PC's over the internet and flashing the firmware on their ECU's!! ManC can testify to that! It is quite funny watching the software over the internet with the car idling and, watching the gauges go round and setting up the various parameters from the comfort of my living room! The future is remote control... Andy

    Now that is good
    Msn does have a use then haha...
    
    p.s i want one
34. manc Established Member Joined: Dec 2004 Derby Posts: 1945 Pug 207

    #34 25th March 2009, 14:54

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by luthor1 I'll let you off - the badge looks pretty tiny on my piccie!! Thanks Ferg.... culmination of an awful lot of work now... I'm also enjoying factory-feel idle on the stock idle valve finally! Totally transforms the car. My evenings now involve remote-controlling customers PC's over the internet and flashing the firmware on their ECU's!! ManC can testify to that! It is quite funny watching the software over the internet with the car idling and, watching the gauges go round and setting up the various parameters from the comfort of my living room! The future is remote control... Andy

    I can entirely testify for Andy's evening's being taken up by medaling 'for the better' with my ecu , I'm sure I would struggle & indeed any Predator user for that matter to do certian updates and tweaks to the Predator from a LONG list of instructions, remote administration of a laptop connected to the Predator is the way forward! it makes the whole 'updating/tweaking' process a whole lot safer & quiker
    
    Again Andy, your efforts and continued supported is much appreciated
35. manc Established Member Joined: Dec 2004 Derby Posts: 1945 Pug 207

    #35 25th March 2009, 14:56

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DJDannyB Now that is good Msn does have a use then haha... p.s i want one

    Its a little more than MSN m8e, you can give entire desktop/laptop control to a remote user, you literally see the mouse moving once control is handed over
    
    ManC
36. lcheater Frequent Poster Joined: Jul 2005 Southampton United Kingdom (England) Posts: 811 1999 Saxo VTS 2008 Vectra 2.8 V6 Turbo 1987 Rang

    #36 25th March 2009, 15:16

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by manc Its a little more than MSN m8e, you can give entire desktop/laptop control to a remote user, you literally see the mouse moving once control is handed over ManC

    Yeah but i think he is referring to the remote control feature within MSN.
37. DJDannyB Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jun 2008 Stockport Posts: 2687

    #37 25th March 2009, 15:30

    Yes you can do that with msn, i thought thats how he was doing it lol, so whats the other way of doing it guys? would be interesting to know
38. Sophia_Bush Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2007 Shropshire Posts: 9994 Moonstone Blue 106 GTi

    #38 25th March 2009, 15:32

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by luthor1 I'll let you off - the badge looks pretty tiny on my piccie!! Thanks Ferg.... culmination of an awful lot of work now... I'm also enjoying factory-feel idle on the stock idle valve finally! Totally transforms the car. My evenings now involve remote-controlling customers PC's over the internet and flashing the firmware on their ECU's!! ManC can testify to that! It is quite funny watching the software over the internet with the car idling and, watching the gauges go round and setting up the various parameters from the comfort of my living room! The future is remote control... Andy

    
    
    legend looks like you can do my tps and other stuff to
39. manc Established Member Joined: Dec 2004 Derby Posts: 1945 Pug 207

    #39 25th March 2009, 15:54

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lcheater Yeah but i think he is referring to the remote control feature within MSN.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DJDannyB Yes you can do that with msn, i thought thats how he was doing it lol, so whats the other way of doing it guys? would be interesting to know

    ofc, remote assistant, Never personally used it but it does exist, me & Andy used a 3rd party tool which is setup at my workplace, seemed to work well.
    
    ManC
40. raunchz Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R

    #40 25th March 2009, 15:58

    Having met Andy I can say he's a top bloke and have all the confidence getting the Predator fitted and mapped for my TB's. The profile of the curves speak for themselves!
41. lcheater Frequent Poster Joined: Jul 2005 Southampton United Kingdom (England) Posts: 811 1999 Saxo VTS 2008 Vectra 2.8 V6 Turbo 1987 Rang

    #41 25th March 2009, 15:58

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DJDannyB Yes you can do that with msn, i thought thats how he was doing it lol, so whats the other way of doing it guys? would be interesting to know

    You can configure your OS to allow the external systems remote control, but it is considered a security issue in most cases because it requires certain ports to be open, which means they are open to attack by anyone on the internet.
    
    Logme.com is a good service to use for remote access. I use it at work to connect to my home PC. Its free too :-)
    
    Anyway, this is now off topic. Sorry Andy!
42. Mysticp Scotland Joined: Jul 2005 Edinburgh Posts: 9556 Saxo 1.6i 16v VTS, 2 Classic Minis

    #42 25th March 2009, 16:03

    Wow, better than you were expecting then i suppose? unless you were just being quietly confident on monday
    
    Not that i think its necessary but i will also testify to the fantastic support Andy provides with the ECU, despite me not even being one of his actual customers!
    
    Thats a fantastic result, well deserved imo. Its nifty how those 2 leaner spikes at the high end are visible in plain sight on the graph too!
43. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

    #43 25th March 2009, 17:03

    Thanks for noticing the fuel/wobble!!
    
    What's happening there is that I'm 'cheating' a little. I'm targetting the air/fuel ratio with the wideband algorithm, however the map was quite a long way from the target up the top, so the algorithm was having to pull it a LONG way away from the basic map setting to get to where I wanted it to be.
    
    I've just got to beef up the fuelling at the top end so the algorithm isn't having to pull it so far, since it's designed to adjust the fuelling best at cruise RPM rather than high RPM it is not as efficient!
    
    But - I digress, well spotted!!
    
    Andy
44. Sophia_Bush Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2007 Shropshire Posts: 9994 Moonstone Blue 106 GTi

    #44 25th March 2009, 17:23

    since my gti is still standard I think some back to back tests are needed at my local ish rolling road company aldon automotive to compare
45. Matty-VTR Frequent Poster Joined: Jan 2008 Cheltenham Posts: 920 Silver VTR & Gunmetal Grey VTR

    #45 25th March 2009, 17:42

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by luthor1 Ross, 5 runs, so 40 minutes I guess? Nothing dramatic. Andy

    You mapped a car in 40 minutes?
46. Matty-VTR Frequent Poster Joined: Jan 2008 Cheltenham Posts: 920 Silver VTR & Gunmetal Grey VTR

    #46 25th March 2009, 17:49

    Next time your at janspeed plug the standard ECU and give it a power run then compare both maps
    
    That will then show us the gains Pred ECU can give with breathing mods
47. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

    #47 25th March 2009, 18:09

    Matty,
    
    The map has been developed over many months and many hours of 'fiddling' on the road, so inevitably, it wasn't a million miles away so only needed mild faffing to bring it in line.
    
    Andy
48. Mysticp Scotland Joined: Jul 2005 Edinburgh Posts: 9556 Saxo 1.6i 16v VTS, 2 Classic Minis

    #48 25th March 2009, 18:56

    I meant to ask this morning actually, is there an algorithm available to target AFR values and have the ECU do the leg work? Or is it a little more involved than that? I've got my map fairly consistent now but ive got a few more Qs for you when i get the car back on the road.
49. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

    #49 25th March 2009, 19:05

    Mystic
    
    yes, with the new code, you get the map "close" and let the algorithm do the rest. The closer you are, the less wavering the power curve.
    
    I was truly miles away at the top end on mine hence the wobbling, but I got the information I needed!
    
    I was mainly interested on how the ignition timing altered the torque at low revs...
    
    Interesting that I've got 90lbsft at 2600rpm
    
    Andy
    "My car chugs up steep hills in 5th"
50. Sophia_Bush Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2007 Shropshire Posts: 9994 Moonstone Blue 106 GTi

    #50 25th March 2009, 19:07

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Matty-VTR Next time your at janspeed plug the standard ECU and give it a power run then compare both maps That will then show us the gains Pred ECU can give with breathing mods

    it will happen matty when I get my predator it will have oe pug ecu vs predator
51. Matty-VTR Frequent Poster Joined: Jan 2008 Cheltenham Posts: 920 Silver VTR & Gunmetal Grey VTR

    #51 25th March 2009, 19:08

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by luthor1 Matty, The map has been developed over many months and many hours of 'fiddling' on the road, so inevitably, it wasn't a million miles away so only needed mild faffing to bring it in line. Andy

    Fair enough
52. Matty-VTR Frequent Poster Joined: Jan 2008 Cheltenham Posts: 920 Silver VTR & Gunmetal Grey VTR

    #52 25th March 2009, 19:08

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sophia_Bush it will happen matty when I get my predator it will have oe pug ecu vs predator

    Nice one mate
53. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

    #53 26th March 2009, 14:59

    I do plan on going back and getting a 'stock' map from the same dyno... would be good for comparisons!
    
    Andy