cam timing and mapping thread part 2

7th April 2009, 20:00

hello. alot of people were involved in the last thread i had about peak performance cam timing. the thread turned into a bit of an arguement and got locked on request of my self and a few other members of this forum. how ever i was asked to make a new thread when the problem had been resolved and the car had been mapped again correctly.

so hear it is-
today we have been learning about cars again all day with wayne from chip wizards. i payed very close attention to what he was saying, he talked me through every step of the mapping process showing the right and wrong way to map cars etc and what each line meant on every graph.

i would not my car anywhere else for it mapping now tbh, one of the reasons being-

that is a 600+ BHP porche track slag stripped out and it even has poly carb windows riveted in!!! would you do this to a £250000 car? wayne tunes cars like these for a living. the last time i went he had 3 of them in so i more than trusted him with my saxo.

the mapping process-

first of all to make this process easier i now have open pulleys-

you can just about see them although i admit it isnt a very good picture of them.

the car had never been run with a 300 kpa fuel pressure regulator and the inlet cam retarded to 112 degrees. the first one run done with the car like this as i drove it there and it made 144bhp at fly. however this was on the bhp tuning map.

having a look at the map-

wayne showed us the map that was on the car and tbh how my engine hasnt blown up i dont no. they had basically advanced the ignition timing a ridiculous amount at the top end of the rev range and made it run lean as fuck. which is the totally wrong way to do it.

anyone who knows how to map cars knows that your supposed to advance the cam timing alot bottom end, some mid way and very sleightly at the top end of the revs.

the map was altered over the course of the day and i must of had about 10-12 dyno runs with the cam timing adjusted on the rollers. correct method of live mapping a car.

here are some of the results=

the first run- bhp tunings map-

some others after a mess about-

and my personal favourite which the car now stands at-

thanks to wayne i now have 157 bhp at fly and 137 bhp at wheels. im more than happy with this tbh. im glad its finally running what it should be. the car feels brilliant to drive now and it pulls brilliantly!!!

gouldy

7th April 2009, 20:13

sweet m8! read the last thread and been taking it all in, gonna be doing it soon!. Glad to see youve got it sorted and pulling well ;-), How long were you with wayne? must have been a few hours or so.

7th April 2009, 20:20

Couple of questions...

What's the "triangle"P value relate to??

Secondly, judging by the speed reading in MPH, these runs were done in 5th gear - isn't it more normal to run in 4th?

Andy

7th April 2009, 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by sax-oli

sweet m8! read the last thread and been taking it all in, gonna be doing it soon!. Glad to see youve got it sorted and pulling well ;-), How long were you with wayne? must have been a few hours or so.

930am till 200pm

7th April 2009, 20:28

every time iv been there the runs have been done in 4th gear

7th April 2009, 20:29

Deffo done in 5th highest 4th on a vts box will run at 7800 is 123 according to my figures.

4th is what all mappers tend to run them in as its the closest to a 1:1

7th April 2009, 20:43

Why would he of done it in 5th? Any specific reason anyone can think of?

7th April 2009, 20:56

^^

Gets a higher reading lol

7th April 2009, 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthor1

Couple of questions...

What's the "triangle"P value relate to??

Andy

Looks like its something to do with the difference between the values for Pmax and Prated, any one know what Prated is? Is it some form of correction factor?

7th April 2009, 21:33

Im guessing your open pulleys look like this?

Does your printed graph say what gear it was ran in?

7th April 2009, 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matty-VTR

^^

Gets a higher reading lol

Fail.

My car ran straight after gouldys (Standard 206 GTi, 137bhp version) and the graph reads 136.0 bhp, so spot on!

Yes i know that its 1brake under standard but engines loose power with high milage (has 104k on it)

So by that i would say the rollers are pretty damn accurate.

Pipe, the fuck, down!

7th April 2009, 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1ngegti

Fail.

My car ran straight after gouldys (Standard 206 GTi, 137bhp version) and the graph reads 136.0 bhp, so spot on!

Yes i know that its 1brake under standard but engines loose power with high milage (has 104k on it)

So by that i would say the rollers are pretty damn accurate.

Pipe, the fuck, down!

Engines come out of the factory with tollerences, the figures quoted are a guide figure, they are not exact (eg every car off the production line isnt the same in terms of bhp to the nearest 0.1bhp)

You also have just contradicted yourself, They 'loose' power with age but yours is the same as the book figure you quote?

think about that

7th April 2009, 21:49

It's 1 brake less. Not a lot I know and quite surprising for a French lump.

And engines do loose power with high miles. Fact.

7th April 2009, 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1ngegti

It's 1 brake less. Not a lot I know and quite surprising for a French lump.

And engines do loose power with high miles. Fact.

So they loose power 'FACT'. yet its 1bhp down and you say they dont over read? So which one of your comments are you contradiciting

7th April 2009, 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1ngegti

Fail.

My car ran straight after gouldys (Standard 206 GTi, 137bhp version) and the graph reads 136.0 bhp, so spot on!

Yes i know that its 1brake under standard but engines loose power with high milage (has 104k on it)

So by that i would say the rollers are pretty damn accurate.

Pipe, the fuck, down!

The fuck you on about? I said doing power run in 5th gear gets higher reading because it puts more losses on - I'm not talking about whether the rollers are accurate or not.

Engines do not always loose power with high milage either, some actually get more then book figure (mk2 golf gtis for example)

Pipe the fuck down? think you will be now after making yourself look silly

(206 gti?...as you would say, fail?)

7th April 2009, 22:04

i cant think of anything relevant to say, so im gona jump in here

G1ngegti you have alot to say about nothing.

behave

7th April 2009, 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

Deffo done in 5th highest 4th on a vts box will run at 7800 is 123 according to my figures.

4th is what all mappers tend to run them in as its the closest to a 1:1

I don't get this 1:1 bollocks.

The drive goes through a final anyway so the engine rpm bares no resemblance to the wheel rpm anywaysss

7th April 2009, 22:14

I was refering to the 1bhp as lost power.

I think everyone needs to stop picking holes in stuff. The man has a readout provng power. Unless anyone would liketo pay for another run on a different dyno then shut the fuck up. There's more proof that the power is 157 than there is that it's not apart from a load of tools who claim to know everything. But untill you getting paid to tune proper race cars like chipwizards then I'm gonna believe them over u

7th April 2009, 22:16

and what's this bollocks about engine losing hp the more miles they put on?

7th April 2009, 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1ngegti

I was refering to the 1bhp as lost power.

I think everyone needs to stop picking holes in stuff. The man has a readout provng power. Unless anyone would liketo pay for another run on a different dyno then shut the fuck up. There's more proof that the power is 157 than there is that it's not apart from a load of tools who claim to know everything. But untill you getting paid to tune proper race cars like chipwizards then I'm gonna believe them over u

im happy for you.

why get personal telling people to "shut the fuck up" and calling them "tools"

do you have any idea how pathetic and unintelligent it makes you look.

7th April 2009, 22:20

Sorry, judging by everyone elses posts I thought it was the done thing on here

7th April 2009, 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1ngegti

I was refering to the 1bhp as lost power.

I think everyone needs to stop picking holes in stuff. The man has a readout provng power. Unless anyone would liketo pay for another run on a different dyno then shut the fuck up. There's more proof that the power is 157 than there is that it's not apart from a load of tools who claim to know everything. But untill you getting paid to tune proper race cars like chipwizards then I'm gonna believe them over u

you could allways hit the log out button, and not make yourself look more stupid and stop the argument.

There was no argument till you decided to log on and start throwing your keyboard around.

7th April 2009, 22:27

running it in 5th should underread the power.

7th April 2009, 22:32

i love how threads descend in to btter personal insults and arguing like they usually do

7th April 2009, 22:32

I didn't think the wheel power would change though man? Since power is a function of torque and wheel speed.

Torque will be less at the wheel because it's in 5th as opposed to 4th (since gears are effectively 'torque multipliers') but the wheel speed will be much greater. As a result... power will be similar between 4th and 5th gears. pow.

hence why eclectic wonder at this 1:1 ratio that's banged on about.

7th April 2009, 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia_Bush

i love how threads descend in to btter personal insults and arguing like they usually do

fuk u u cuntbag cunt fucker bitch.

7th April 2009, 22:36

G1ngegti you keyboard warrior...

take yourself and your old GIT to a pug forum this is a family orientated community forum.

7th April 2009, 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

fuk u u cuntbag cunt fucker bitch.

some people type lol but probably dont mean it.

LOL and I fucking mean it

7th April 2009, 23:37

I'll front up the petrol, lost earnings, and the dyno run to put it on the Janspeed rollers, and finally confirm once and for all the *all* chipwizard cars have 155bhp (give or take).

Furthermore, Gouldy was bleating about how crap his car was before with 145bhp!!!!!!!

WTF you talking about?? 145 was crap eh?

God I wish I was sober, this wouldmake so much more sense...

Andy

7th April 2009, 23:39

Amazingly mine has 155bhp.....

Mapped by chipwizards - when alls said and done it does perform well regardless of power figures - thats what counts isnt it?

Right I dont know loads about mapping or waynes software but looking at the pics of the screens do they show a difference in power loss? ie from 18 down to 16? I could easily be misinterpreting this.

8th April 2009, 00:03

only one way to solve this BUT it could end in you not being happy with the car again lol

take it to bhp tuner and ask if chris will run the car and see what there rollers read your new power output at

you took it to chipwizards with next to nothing done other than the cam position being changed 2 degree and it made 144bhp on there map but only made 120something if i recall on there rollers so 15bhp aint gonn have been found by moving the degree a minor amount so why has it made 15bhp difference on 2 different sets of rollers before wayne even touched it?

you might find that it runs a little better on chip wizards map but produces less bhp on bhp tuners rollers then it did on chip wizards rollers

every set of rollers will make some kind of different reading b it small or large differences

difference is chris will have no reason to make the figure seem higher if you take it for a run on there rollers cos its not him thats mapped it now

would certainly settle a few things thats been discussed over the years

8th April 2009, 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by gouldy87

the map was altered over the course of the day and i must of had about 10-12 dyno runs with the cam timing adjusted on the rollers. correct method of live mapping a car.

could be wrong but as i understand it bhp tuners didnt do a full custom map for you cos you took the cheaper option of him putting some maps done for other cars on it which was never gonna be perfect for your car cos every engine is different

i was told when i needed the 8v i was building custom mapping that it would be a damn sight more costly then you paid thats for sure lol

but i stand to be correct if im not right about that

8th April 2009, 00:13

Janspeed don't care about Saxo's, or my ECU, or Chipwizards, just run the thing up on the rollers!

Andy

8th April 2009, 00:18

similar problem L.A.D had years ago was they were offering tuning kits saying each stage would make a certain bhp
you dropped the car off and picked it up with a rolling road print out stating you got pretty much what they said you would

few months later people went to a rolling road day and yes made decent power cos L.A.D heads are really good but alot of people made less than they did at L.A.D and so they ended up with a crap rep cos of this

if i was taking my car to a mappers for a custom map i wouldnt tell them a damn thing that was done to the car so that i would know 100% it was making what it should with the mods done and not what im expecting to see

please people dont read into this as though im bad mouthing companys im just very interested in seeing a car mapped at one company at 155bhp run the same on a brand new set of rollers at another company who would have no reason to exagerate the readings a little

8th April 2009, 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeds106

similar problem L.A.D had years ago was they were offering tuning kits saying each stage would make a certain bhp
you dropped the car off and picked it up with a rolling road print out stating you got pretty much what they said you would

few months later people went to a rolling road day and yes made decent power cos L.A.D heads are really good but alot of people made less than they did at L.A.D and so they ended up with a crap rep cos of this

Lad still have the shit reputation of this (largely due to retards now buying saxos who brag they have 160-180bhp lad engines which we know dont)

As you stated workmanship wise their reputation is very good, (based on years of 205 rallying engines).. just the false power claims are commical.

8th April 2009, 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeds106

please people dont read into this as though im bad mouthing companys im just very interested in seeing a car mapped at one company at 155bhp run the same on a brand new set of rollers at another company who would have no reason to exagerate the readings a little

I think you are more trying to prevent further bad mouthing by gouldy against BHP or any other mapper/ecu which is apparently now shit based on his previous comments to be honest. Nothing wrong with an evaluative opinion on the matter, so I dont see anyone jumping on the bandwagon etc...

8th April 2009, 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

Lad still have the shit reputation of this (largely due to retards now buying saxos who brag they have 160-180bhp lad engines which we know dont)

As you stated workmanship wise their reputation is very good, (based on years of 205 rallying engines).. just the false power claims are commical.

yeah there head work is suppose to be awesome but as we both have said they screwed themselves really by saying they can 100% give you a certain bhp which noone can really

8th April 2009, 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

I think you are more trying to prevent further bad mouthing by gouldy against BHP or any other mapper/ecu which is apparently now shit based on his previous comments to be honest. Nothing wrong with an evaluative opinion on the matter, so I dont see anyone jumping on the bandwagon etc...

well i was at a rolling road other week while a mate had his s2 rallye set up cos its now running a mental cam and bike carbs
(the 8v i was building as i said in an above post)

and the guy said its easy to make a car get more bhp and showed us with his rallye making its actual power which was around 125-130 bhp at wheels but then did another run where it made over 400bhp
dunno how he did it but he did it easily lol

he had no reason to make it seem better than it should have been cos he was just setting the fueling up on the carbs but it made me think tbh

8th April 2009, 00:34

how about setting up a fund of sorts so to speak.a nominated person with spec x of car can visit a few rolling roads.
then we can debate about the weather !

8th April 2009, 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinga

how about setting up a fund of sorts so to speak.a nominated person with spec x of car can visit a few rolling roads.
then we can debate about the weather !

unless they are the same ambient temps and 'weather' for each run theres still plenty of room for debating lol"

8th April 2009, 00:44

I'll go to Janspeed with Gouldy for back-to-backs!

My shout

Andy

8th April 2009, 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

So they loose power 'FACT'. yet its 1bhp down and you say they dont over read? So which one of your comments are you contradiciting

your comments are petty remarks and picking tiny holes in other peoples cars. why are you doing this? the idea of a forum is to help each other out is it not?

i would of thought i would of got a "nice one mate glad to see its all fixed"

not all this childish argueing again.

the car is now mapped right. im happy with it everything has been sorted and it runs brilliantly and it pulls very well through the gears. so it was well worth going to wayne tbh.

8th April 2009, 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

I don't get this 1:1 bollocks.

The drive goes through a final anyway so the engine rpm bares no resemblance to the wheel rpm anywaysss

thank you.

8th April 2009, 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by PETE-VTR

G1ngegti you keyboard warrior...

take yourself and your old GIT to a pug forum this is a family orientated community forum.

that made me LMAO! that GTI is a very nice car tbh and a bargain at the price he got it for and ginge isnt exactly a key board warrior, more of a bouncer tbh.

8th April 2009, 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthor1

I'll front up the petrol, lost earnings, and the dyno run to put it on the Janspeed rollers, and finally confirm once and for all the *all* chipwizard cars have 155bhp (give or take).

Furthermore, Gouldy was bleating about how crap his car was before with 145bhp!!!!!!!

WTF you talking about?? 145 was crap eh?

God I wish I was sober, this wouldmake so much more sense...

Andy

yea.....

8th April 2009, 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeds106

only one way to solve this BUT it could end in you not being happy with the car again lol

take it to bhp tuner and ask if chris will run the car and see what there rollers read your new power output at

you took it to chipwizards with next to nothing done other than the cam position being changed 2 degree and it made 144bhp on there map but only made 120something if i recall on there rollers so 15bhp aint gonn have been found by moving the degree a minor amount so why has it made 15bhp difference on 2 different sets of rollers before wayne even touched it?

you might find that it runs a little better on chip wizards map but produces less bhp on bhp tuners rollers then it did on chip wizards rollers

every set of rollers will make some kind of different reading b it small or large differences

difference is chris will have no reason to make the figure seem higher if you take it for a run on there rollers cos its not him thats mapped it now

would certainly settle a few things thats been discussed over the years

the reason why it made more was when it was run at bhp tuning, it was ran with a 350 kpa fuel pressure reg. here was too much fuel getting in and the ecu senses this thus when my car was getting to a certain rpm it was knocking the fueling back so it lost power. and the cam timing makes a big difference as its how your engine breaths

8th April 2009, 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

I think you are more trying to prevent further bad mouthing by gouldy against BHP or any other mapper/ecu which is apparently now shit based on his previous comments to be honest. Nothing wrong with an evaluative opinion on the matter, so I dont see anyone jumping on the bandwagon etc...

ive not slagged any other mapping company off as of yet.

ive gave my opinion of peoples work and the processes used. everyone knows that when your mapping a car live you dont use msn surely?

like i said in my previous thread bhp tuning is very accurate for power runs. i reckon in a couple of years when they have been mapping cars abit they will be a good company to use. but they only started mapping cars in january. so there not going to really no what they are doing at the min compared to other mapping companies who have been doing it years.

and why did you have a random pop at me there? when up and till now my only post had been the title? you just blatantly slagged me off for no reason! your a joke mate honestly, your a MOD on here! your supposed to help people out and not get involved with slanging matches

8th April 2009, 11:01

also, what gain would chip wizards have making my car "look" a higher bhp than it is? the man race tunes track cars for a living, he is very busy atm as the racing season is coming up. there is nothing for him to gain by making my car run better etc. wayne is a a very smart man and i would trust him to map any of my cars tbh.

i love how ive got the car sorted and straight away most people have just picked it to bits. like i said, isnt this a forum and we all help each other out?

8th April 2009, 11:02

pot.kettle.black.

8th April 2009, 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinga

pot.kettle.black.

do explain?

8th April 2009, 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by gouldy87

i love how ive got the car sorted and straight away most people have just picked it to bits. like i said, isnt this a forum and we all help each other out?

i dont think people are being harsh it think its just one of them age old things like was said further up this thread that it would be nice to see what it made on another set of rollers

that way it would end any kind of speculation about this kind of thing

8th April 2009, 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeds106

i dont think people are being harsh it think its just one of them age old things like was said further up this thread that it would be nice to see what it made on another set of rollers

that way it would end any kind of speculation about this kind of thing

i dont think it is that at all tbh. i think its most people on sax-p love picking others peoples cars to bits.

8th April 2009, 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthor1

I'll go to Janspeed with Gouldy for back-to-backs!

My shout

Andy

come up here?

8th April 2009, 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by gouldy87

your comments are petty remarks and picking tiny holes in other peoples cars. why are you doing this? the idea of a forum is to help each other out is it not?
.

I think you need to learn to read tbh.

Read the whole conversation, then realise my comment aimed towards your 'mate' who joined the forum for an argument.

Its not a petty comment its making someone look foolish whos contradiciting themselves whilst looking for an argument.

8th April 2009, 11:54

I have little interest in going to Chipwizards and opening my bonnet to show off my ECU and then do a run! That is not realistic.

I am however, happy to go to a completely independant Rolling Road that has NOTHING to do with Saxo's in any way shape or form.

How about Surrey ROlling Road?

Andy

8th April 2009, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by gouldy87

and why did you have a random pop at me there? when up and till now my only post had been the title? you just blatantly slagged me off for no reason! your a joke mate honestly, your a MOD on here! your supposed to help people out and not get involved with slanging matches

seriously get a life, you forget I read the entirety of your bollocks on here. I removed it. People tried to help you and you were very rude and ignored everything they had to say, you made slanderous comments about other companies work without anything to back it up and didnt like the responses you got because of it.

We commented on a genuine thing firstly which was about the speed and gear looking strange, if people then want to throw the toys out of the pram thats not my problem tbh. Its a debate, people are allowed to do it without throwing personal insults about.

8th April 2009, 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by gouldy87

i dont think it is that at all tbh. i think its most people on sax-p love picking others peoples cars to bits.

Goes off to find the comments I removed in mr houstons project thread last week.

I suggest you take a look at yourself/behaviour before whinging about sax-p.

8th April 2009, 12:19

Nice to see its pushing what it should be mate!!!. How much better does it feel?

I bet thats perked thee up!

8th April 2009, 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ste

Nice to see its pushing what it should be mate!!!. How much better does it feel?

I bet thats perked thee up!

yea im over the moon with it ste mate!!! well worth it!!

as for the rest of you LMFAO why is this forum full of children. it seems you cant do anything right. you done thing, people pull it to bits you do another better thing with your car and people still pull it to bits!!! ill be the bigger man here and call it a day. its not worth the arguing its just wasting my time.

ryan- after my infraction thing i admitted i was in the wrong and as MOD you should keep the infractions issued etc confidential

8th April 2009, 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by gouldy87

ryan- after my infraction thing i admitted i was in the wrong and as MOD you should keep the infractions issued etc confidential

1. I didnt mention infractions YOU DID!

If you can find in this thread where I mentioned you got an infraction for me? or are you once again not reading what people write then jumping to further conclusions?

And I suggest next time you want to try and take the moral high ground on the forum you dont first start by calling everyone children, you just make yourself look daft, especially when as stated you need to look at your own behaviour

8th April 2009, 21:04

Your face is a moderator!

8th April 2009, 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

1. I didnt mention infractions YOU DID!

If you can find in this thread where I mentioned you got an infraction for me? or are you once again not reading what people write then jumping to further conclusions?

And I suggest next time you want to try and take the moral high ground on the forum you dont first start by calling everyone children, you just make yourself look daft, especially when as stated you need to look at your own behaviour

LMFAO, what is the point? make no wonder i look daft when its me vs about 4 other people who all back each other up.

turn it in will you?

8th April 2009, 21:15

I suggest you read why an argument started, and then not go passing threads onto your girlfriends in future who want to come on and start war.

It was peaceful and a conversation with questions till they logged on and started insulting members. 'pipe the fuck down' isnt a post I would say isnt going to cause upset.

Discussion over.