Fitting HID Kits in Angel Eyes - The truth - Possible sticky??

1. NICK2506 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2008 Surrey Posts: 6424 Black '03 Mk2 VTS

   #1 23rd April 2009, 11:01

   I know alot of people on here say that you cant fit an HID kit into angel eyes as they heat from the HID kit will melt the lenses on the angel eyes, but ive heard differently.
   
   From what i have found on the internet, HID kits arent that much hotter than standard halogen bulbs.
   
   The bit that melts on angel eyes is the actual plastic front of the headlights. i think the rings will melt as well, but they arent the main problem.
   
   The thing that melts the lens, isnt the heat, but the UV in the HID kit. Ebay HID kits arent UV protected, so the UV from them melts the plastic.
   
   If you pay the money and get an HID kit from a decent shop, then they are "UV protected", so there is no bad UV rays in them meaning that the angel eyes shouldnt melt.
   
   Here are some links to websites that talk about HID's being no hotter than Halogens, and the bottom link shows that its the UV that melts the plastic not the heat.
   
   In this link look it talks about HID's being no hotter than halogens (look at the 6th, 5th and 4th post from the bottom):
   
   

   Quote:

   i want the HID's and im not sure if the heat is gonna meltthe plastic off... so im trying to figure out which is the correct temp of the light im gonna choose, besides the projectors cant hold that much temp i believe... at least that's what i read about... Plz correct me if im wrong.. thanks

   Quote:

   HID's dont get that hot, they're actualy not as hot as halogen bulbs the temperature rating they say is referring to color tempurature rated in Kelvins

   Quote:

   power makes heat. 1 Watt = 3.413 Btu/hr. That said, a 35W HID bulb will never get hotter than a 55W 9006.

   http://hondaaccordforum.com/forum/ar...p/t-12056.html
   
   And in this link i found where it talks about it being the UV (look at "myth 2"):
   
   

   Quote:

   Myth 2: Myth - Xenon upgrade bulbs will melt your headlights. Truth - All the bulbs on our website including HID and high wattage bulbs are UV protected to ensure they are compatible with plastic headlights. The addition of Xenon gas does not cause the bulbs to be hotter than standard bulbs. The only reason you would cause any damage to your headlights with bulbs is if they are poor quality and have no UV protection.

   http://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/blo...-common-myths/
   
   I know that people have fitted "ultra virtual daylight kit" (Link to "Ultra Virtual Daylight Kit") in their angel eyes and they have had no problems. The "ultra virtual daylight kit" is just an HID kit, but due to it being from Ultra it is UV protected so doesnt damage the headlights.
   
   I think a few people need to try and take the risk, and buy a good HID kit which is UV protected and see if it melts the plastic lens. A few people on here have the ultra virtual daylight kit and ive spoken to them and theyve had no problems. VTR-chris has them and he said to me that his HID kit is an ultra virtual daylight kit, and only the cheap ebay ones melt the lights Heres his progress thread
   
   But im taking no responsibilty if you fit an HID kit and it does melt your angel eyes
   
   
   Reckon this can be made a sticky? to stop people asking about HID's and angel eyes, and just so that people can read it and see that HID's in angel eyes is a possibility?

   5 users thanked this post: Mint-VTR, cj_99, greenman, Westyfield2, newpersn
2. user_29030 Frequent Poster Joined: Nov 2008 Exeter Posts: 870 mk1 Silver VTR

   #2 23rd April 2009, 11:50

   some good advice here mate
   good research
3. user_16245 Established Member Joined: Jun 2007 Ipswich Posts: 1667 Saxo VTR

   #3 23rd April 2009, 11:53

   Sounds like the problem is solved for angel owners!
4. machevelli7777 Established Member Joined: Jan 2007 Little Wymondley Posts: 1063 VTR MK1 (SOLD)

   #4 23rd April 2009, 13:06

   Nice bit of info there Nick! Thanks
5. Spanky Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Dec 2007 Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 9578 Saxo VTS

   #5 23rd April 2009, 13:10

   yes, it does sound good, but who is going to be daring enough to try this out first?
   
   I guess if you bought the kit from auto bulbs direct you could ask them about a refund etc etc if it did damage the lights
6. whits87 Regular Poster Joined: Apr 2009 Kirkby In Ashfield Posts: 477 Saxo VTR Saxo 1.1sx Fiesta Courier Van

   #6 23rd April 2009, 14:41

   I've got HID and Angel eyes on my VTR but it isn’t on the road till June but it was my mates old car and he has had it a year and half with no problems at all.
   Fingers Crossed For Me!!!lol
7. Westyfield2 Newbie Joined: Feb 2009 Bath Posts: 24 2002 Saxo VTR

   #7 23rd April 2009, 20:51

   Thanks for this . Sticky or FAQ IMO.
   
   So for use on Angel Eyes with plastic lenses we need UV Protected HID kits, which the 8000Kelvin £200 Virtual Daylight kit is.
   
   As AutobulbsDirect.co.uk say "All the bulbs on our website including HID and high wattage bulbs are UV protected to ensure they are compatible with plastic headlights." (clicky), I'd say that their H1 35W HID Converstion Kit available with 6000Kelvin or 8000Kelvin both at £100 is a good buy then!
8. TU-Tuning Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: May 2006 Bristol Posts: 16575 JP4urio, 306 DTurbo SportShed

   #8 23rd April 2009, 20:56

   Good research mate, but theres actually a guy on here who tried it. And the rings inside melted over the bulbs
9. NICK2506 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2008 Surrey Posts: 6424 Black '03 Mk2 VTS

   #9 23rd April 2009, 20:56

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Westyfield2 Thanks for this . Sticky or FAQ IMO. So for use on Angel Eyes with plastic lenses we need UV Protected HID kits, which the 8000Kelvin £200 Virtual Daylight kit is. As AutobulbsDirect.co.uk say "All the bulbs on our website including HID and high wattage bulbs are UV protected to ensure they are compatible with plastic headlights." (clicky), I'd say that their H1 35W HID Converstion Kit available with 6000Kelvin or 8000Kelvin both at £100 is a good buy then!

   yup. theirs should be fine. although it doesnt say they're UV protected so i would check with them. and if it melts your headlights demand a refund. might be worth taking your car in when you buy them and showing them that the angel eyes are in mint condition, so that they know any damage is from their HID kit.
   
   Im taking no blame if your angel eyes melt. but people need to start risking it.
10. huskeydog Infrequent Poster Joined: Feb 2009 Glasgow Posts: 209 saxo vtr

    #10 23rd April 2009, 22:55

    my ones aint caused me no trouble and i drive bout till 4 in the morning sum mornings carting ma mates around the pubs n no problems at all n i could have them on for 4hrs n nothing atal
11. whits87 Regular Poster Joined: Apr 2009 Kirkby In Ashfield Posts: 477 Saxo VTR Saxo 1.1sx Fiesta Courier Van

    #11 24th April 2009, 10:33

    Mines been on for a year now and they seem to be fine!
    But i do know on the back it says not to use HID kits...but its been alright so far but if they melt I’ll just get some new uns black background i think next! hhhmmmmm!
12. Westyfield2 Newbie Joined: Feb 2009 Bath Posts: 24 2002 Saxo VTR

    #12 25th April 2009, 19:06

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NICK2506 yup. theirs should be fine. although it doesnt say they're UV protected so i would check with them. and if it melts your headlights demand a refund. might be worth taking your car in when you buy them and showing them that the angel eyes are in mint condition, so that they know any damage is from their HID kit. Im taking no blame if your angel eyes melt. but people need to start risking it.

    AutobulbsDirect kit is exactly the same as the HIDS4U kit which says in it's description "The bulbs have been UV cut to prevent damage to plastic lenses" - both are £97.86.
    
    I've seen the Ultra Virtual Daylight kit for £114.99, and AFAIK the difference is this has "Digital Ballasts" that prevent bulb-out errors or park-distance-control errors (both not valid for a Saxo but would be valid on a modern BMW etc), but it's only available with 8000K bulbs
13. dorsetsaxo Established Member Joined: Nov 2008 dorset Posts: 1113 saxo vtr mk1

    #13 25th April 2009, 20:26

    i have mk1 with angels ive had the 8000k kit in for a month now and today i wanted to spray them black which gave me a good opertunity to see if any melting had occured and nothing so as far as im concerned and prooved theyre fine in mk1s hears the proof
    
    the ballasts in the inner wings
    
    
    
    
    and the 8000k kit is very blue and lights up road perfectly i never need to use main beam
    
    
    
    its been put on my local mot light tester and will pass no probs at all, hes even getting kit now for his astra
    
    basically inside the head light (the projector lamp) is fully metal with that very thick piece of glass so not much to melt, having said that if you had hids in main and dipped i think then things would melt,
    also on mine the dip beam turns off when main is on and vise versa if the two together came on again im sure the temp would get very high, not sure how this is on mk2 and they seam to be a smaller projector lamps from what ive seen but i could be wrong hope this help too
14. denni Established Member Joined: Apr 2008 exmouth Posts: 1714 saxo furio mango

    #14 25th April 2009, 21:55

    or another thing you do is u change the plastic lenses to the standard glass lenses so then the hid wont melt the plastic. simple
15. NICK2506 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2008 Surrey Posts: 6424 Black '03 Mk2 VTS

    #15 26th April 2009, 09:49

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by denni or another thing you do is u change the plastic lenses to the standard glass lenses so then the hid wont melt the plastic. simple

    think that would be quite a bit of work though
16. denni Established Member Joined: Apr 2008 exmouth Posts: 1714 saxo furio mango

    #16 26th April 2009, 10:17

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NICK2506 think that would be quite a bit of work though

    
    na its just as if u were to tint ur headlights.... heat up the glue that holds the lenses onto the headlight and then heat it up again to fix the glass one to the angel
17. Spanky Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Dec 2007 Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 9578 Saxo VTS

    #17 26th April 2009, 11:47

    The above would only work with MK2 headlights as the glass i clear.
    
    Mk1 headlights dotn have clear glass fronts so would look stupid puting them ona set of angel eyes
18. user_15989 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: May 2007 Posts: 4857

    #18 27th April 2009, 08:25

    If it is going to be a sticky its probably worth pointing out they are illegal under the Road Safety Act (Act = Law) as no conversion bulb can be E approve.
    
    UK Governments Department For Transport.
    http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/drs/hidheadlamps
    
    UK laws as published by the UK Governments Office Of Public Sector Information.
    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006a
    
    A useful web site explaining some information about HID conversions that you should know before fitting them.
    http://hid.moonfruit.com/
    
    PS forgot to say 8000k should fail a properly done MOT no matter how well they are set up or what type of bulb. The MOT forbids headlights to be any other colour apart from yellow or white. Blue headlights are illegal to use on the road. Last time a looked the highest temperature HID bulb that was actually road legal was the Philips 6000 (actual colour 5800k)
19. Spanky Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Dec 2007 Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 9578 Saxo VTS

    #19 27th April 2009, 12:48

    so how come i took my car to 5 MOT statins, including some big national companys and they put them on there light readers and said they wer perfectly legal and would pass an MOT no problem ????
20. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

    #20 27th April 2009, 12:53

    funny how you say they dont get hot
    yet there rated by heat
    
    kelvin (the k on liks 6000k) is a measurement for temperature
    
    lifted from wikipedia
    
    The kelvin (symbol: K) is a unit increment of temperature and is one of the seven SI base units. The Kelvin scale is a thermodynamic (absolute) temperature scale where absolute zero, the theoretical absence of all thermal energy, is zero (0 K). The Kelvin scale and the kelvin are named after the Irish physicist and engineer William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin (1824–1907), who wrote of the need for an "absolute thermometric scale". Unlike the degree Fahrenheit, and degree Celsius, the kelvin is not referred to as a "degree", nor is it typeset with a degree symbol; that is, it is written K and not °K.
21. NICK2506 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2008 Surrey Posts: 6424 Black '03 Mk2 VTS

    #21 27th April 2009, 14:34

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AlexB funny how you say they dont get hot yet there rated by heat kelvin (the k on liks 6000k) is a measurement for temperature lifted from wikipedia The kelvin (symbol: K) is a unit increment of temperature and is one of the seven SI base units. The Kelvin scale is a thermodynamic (absolute) temperature scale where absolute zero, the theoretical absence of all thermal energy, is zero (0 K). The Kelvin scale and the kelvin are named after the Irish physicist and engineer William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin (1824–1907), who wrote of the need for an "absolute thermometric scale". Unlike the degree Fahrenheit, and degree Celsius, the kelvin is not referred to as a "degree", nor is it typeset with a degree symbol; that is, it is written K and not °K.

    But thats not the actual temperature, its the colour temperature. this is from auto bulbs directs website:
    
    "The colour temperature is just an indication of the colour of the light emitted, not the light brightness or intensity. Standard halogen bulbs are around 2500K which is a white light with a yellowish tint. Upgrade bulbs/HID kits can give up to around 8000K colour temperature. 4000K is a white light with still a slight yellow tint. 5000K is a pure white light. 6000K is white with a slight blue tint. 8000K is white with a strong blue tint. In practice around 4000-5000K HID bulbs will give the widest spread of light. Our eyes have naturally evolved to focus the best on sunlight which is around 5500K. For this reason the most comfortable lights to drive with are 5000K and 6000K bulbs. When you go to higher colour temperatures you start to lose the focus of the light and it then becomes harder to see objects."
22. Dark_Hero Regular Poster Joined: Jan 2009 Lydd, Kent Posts: 307 Saxo Vtr - mauritius blue

    #22 27th April 2009, 18:23

    Great advice, thanks
23. Westyfield2 Newbie Joined: Feb 2009 Bath Posts: 24 2002 Saxo VTR

    #23 27th April 2009, 19:22

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AlexB funny how you say they dont get hot yet there rated by heat kelvin (the k on liks 6000k) is a measurement for temperature lifted from wikipedia The kelvin (symbol: K) is a unit increment of temperature and is one of the seven SI base units. The Kelvin scale is a thermodynamic (absolute) temperature scale where absolute zero, the theoretical absence of all thermal energy, is zero (0 K). The Kelvin scale and the kelvin are named after the Irish physicist and engineer William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin (1824–1907), who wrote of the need for an "absolute thermometric scale". Unlike the degree Fahrenheit, and degree Celsius, the kelvin is not referred to as a "degree", nor is it typeset with a degree symbol; that is, it is written K and not °K.

    Sorry, but that's not right.
    We're doing it in A-Level physics right now, and whilst Kelvin is the SI unit for temperature, it is also the colour temperature rating.
    
    The color temperature of a light source is determined by comparing its chromaticity with that of an ideal black-body radiator. The temperature (K) at which the heated black-body radiator matches the color of the light source is that source's color temperature; for a black body source, it is directly related to Planck's law and Wien's displacement law.
    
    Counterintuitively, higher color temperatures (5000 K or more) are "cool" (green–blue) colors, and lower color temperatures (2700–3000 K) "warm" (yellow–red) colors.
    
    
    The reality of the matter is that the higher the colour temperature, the less useable light output you will obtain. A perfect example would be a black light. This light has a colour temperature of approx 12,000k and has almost no useable light or lumens output. Higher K kits such as 7000k, 7500k , etc. have been manufactured for individuals that are more concerned about the actual colour output of their lights as opposed to the actual useable light output.
    
    So in short; a 6000K HID bulb does not have a surface temperature of 6000Kelvin (5726.85 degrees Celsius), but it's colour output is rated as 6000Kelvin.
24. NICK2506 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2008 Surrey Posts: 6424 Black '03 Mk2 VTS

    #24 27th April 2009, 19:41

    but autobulbsdirect say they are no hotter, and ive seen other places on the internet say that HID's are no hotter than halogens, and if they are its by a very small amount and wont affect anything. also they are lower wattage standard bulbs are 55/60W and HID's are only 35W
    
    i'll ask my clever physic friends.. lol
    
    even if they are hotter as i said in my first post it isnt the heat that melts the angel eyes its the UV.
    
    

    Quote:

    if a standard halogen bulb has a color temperature lower than that of a HID bulb, and the halogen bulb consumes more electricity than a HID bulb, then how is it possible for a HID bulb to burn at a higher color temperature than a halogen bulb without producing more heat than the halogen bulb? Is it because of the technological differences of the HID and halogen bulbs?

25. Westyfield2 Newbie Joined: Feb 2009 Bath Posts: 24 2002 Saxo VTR

    #25 27th April 2009, 20:22

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NICK2506 but autobulbsdirect say they are no hotter, and ive seen other places on the internet say that HID's are no hotter than halogens, and if they are its by a very small amount and wont affect anything. also they are lower wattage standard bulbs are 55/60W and HID's are only 35W i'll ask my clever physic friends.. lol even if they are hotter as i said in my first post it isnt the heat that melts the angel eyes its the UV.

    Exactly right.
    
    With HID's the 6000K is their colour (which slighly confusingly is also caled Kelvin)....... a number that determines how blue or red they are. A 6000K HID bulb does not have a surface temperature of 6000K/5726.85C, that'd be insanely hot!
    
    And AFAIK a HID bulb's actual surface temperature will be lower than a standard halogen filament bulb... because with HIDs a greater proportion of their radiation is in visible light as opposed to heat.
26. Mint-VTR Established Member Joined: Mar 2008 Sawbridgeworth Posts: 1883 Black VTR, Clio 172. Gaz Coilovers, Stealth Exhaus

    #26 28th April 2009, 01:09

    any proof (as in pictures) of melted Angels?
27. NICK2506 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2008 Surrey Posts: 6424 Black '03 Mk2 VTS

    #27 28th April 2009, 07:50

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bung any proof (as in pictures) of melted Angels?

    Nope, cause the only people who have put HID's in their angel eyes still have them in one piece and not melted
    
    Tbh i dont think it would look as dramatic as you would imagine. probably just a small hole or lots of cracks.
28. Mint-VTR Established Member Joined: Mar 2008 Sawbridgeworth Posts: 1883 Black VTR, Clio 172. Gaz Coilovers, Stealth Exhaus

    #28 28th April 2009, 11:54

    yeah probably not as bad as it sounds, at my local cruise theres about 5 people with angels and HID kits as one of us sells them cheap! and noone of them have had any problems!
29. Boosted Regular Poster Joined: May 2009 Malta Posts: 359 1.5D Saxo Mk1

    #29 2nd February 2010, 21:52

    would h4 hid kit fit the mk1 angel eyes?
30. user_40784 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2010 London Posts: 2768

    #30 2nd February 2010, 23:27

    I believe its H1? need to clarify though...
31. Boosted Regular Poster Joined: May 2009 Malta Posts: 359 1.5D Saxo Mk1

    #31 3rd February 2010, 11:48

    yeah guys its h1, thanks lol cause i had just got hid's h4 for my b'day last monday and luckily i asked around as i'm getting my angel eyes next week for my saxo and the shop i got the hid's from was really ok. i just need to give him back the hid's in the original package and he'll give me h1's hids
32. NICK2506 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2008 Surrey Posts: 6424 Black '03 Mk2 VTS

    #32 3rd February 2010, 12:02

    H4's have dipped and full beam in one bulb so wouldnt work in angels, as angels have a different bulb for the full beam
33. Boosted Regular Poster Joined: May 2009 Malta Posts: 359 1.5D Saxo Mk1

    #33 3rd February 2010, 20:47

    yeah noticed after i got the h4 hids. tomorrow i'm swapping them for the h1's. i'm getting just the main beam hid the full beam i'm keeping a standard bulb cause that will be too much.
34. Boosted Regular Poster Joined: May 2009 Malta Posts: 359 1.5D Saxo Mk1

    #34 4th February 2010, 22:35

    today swapped for h1 and waiting for my angel eyes to arrive...hope the hid's won't melt the angel eyes!!
35. liam46 Frequent Poster Joined: Sep 2007 Camberley, Surrey Posts: 640 Black FURIO (52)

    #35 5th February 2010, 09:50

    y0 Nick.
    I did the same thread about HID's in Angels and i went through 3 sets of headlights. The Angel Rings will melt and also the outer lense will start to crack due to heat and eventually burn a pure hole through the lense. I used a 8k HID kit and second time round i did use a Ultra Virtual Daylight kit and the same happened. Search button FTW
36. NICK2506 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2008 Surrey Posts: 6424 Black '03 Mk2 VTS

    #36 5th February 2010, 10:46

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by liam46 y0 Nick. I did the same thread about HID's in Angels and i went through 3 sets of headlights. The Angel Rings will melt and also the outer lense will start to crack due to heat and eventually burn a pure hole through the lense. I used a 8k HID kit and second time round i did use a Ultra Virtual Daylight kit and the same happened. Search button FTW

    ooh shitt.....hmmm, well from what ive read i thought it would be fine but if you know that from experience you must be right! thanks for telling me when you were selling me your car that the angels were about to melt LOL
37. user_40784 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2010 London Posts: 2768

    #37 5th February 2010, 18:07

    costly leason learnt from there!
38. user_12308 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Nov 2006 The Lang Toun Posts: 4133 Mk2 Clio V6 #007 of 354

    #38 11th February 2010, 07:48

    so its pot luck whether they'll melt or not as some fowk have no problems....
39. Col3y Regular Poster Joined: Feb 2008 Dorset Posts: 305 Own a Show Saxo VTR "S14 VTR"

    #39 11th February 2010, 13:23

    hey good advise! ive been thinkin of trying to put HID into my halo's as would look awsome but ive never wanted to try just incase not sure if any would know? i was thinkin off puttin Rally Bulbs in my halo's insted off 55W there 100W but on the packaging it says change the wiring hmmmm....??
    Col3y
40. NICK2506 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2008 Surrey Posts: 6424 Black '03 Mk2 VTS

    #40 11th February 2010, 13:34

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Col3y hey good advise! ive been thinkin of trying to put HID into my halo's as would look awsome but ive never wanted to try just incase not sure if any would know? i was thinkin off puttin Rally Bulbs in my halo's insted off 55W there 100W but on the packaging it says change the wiring hmmmm....?? Col3y

    yeah cos 100w bulbs on 55w wiring means the bulbs wont get the full 100w iirc
41. user_15989 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: May 2007 Posts: 4857

    #41 11th February 2010, 18:18

    If your after more light you can always just hide a set of driving light in your bumper. Perfectly legal and work great. You could even fit them in place of the standard front fogs.
42. NICK2506 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2008 Surrey Posts: 6424 Black '03 Mk2 VTS

    #42 11th February 2010, 18:40

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AXracing If your after more light you can always just hide a set of driving light in your bumper. Perfectly legal and work great. You could even fit them in place of the standard front fogs.

    People may think they are fog lights though and you'll look like a chav
    
    For more light on full beam you can wire your fogs to come on with your full beams...
    
    I find halogen blue/white bulbs in angels bright enough tbh...
43. john-harvey Newbie Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 2

    #43 16th August 2010, 23:25

    so does the hid's melt the angels?? because i had them in my standard lights then found out that when i got my angels they wouldnt fit so now im selling them on ebay lol so if thay work i could just keep them and buy h1 bulbs?
    confused!!
    john
44. user_38442 Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2009 Owner of www.destinyeffect.co.uk radio station live every Thursday Friday night from 7-9pm Posts: 724 vts vtr

    #44 7th April 2012, 20:36

    My HID'S are 8000k mk2 with glass and I've had no problems over the 5 years of having it . So big up the HID CREW evary time
45. user_49477 Infrequent Poster Joined: Jan 2011 Twycross Zoo Posts: 244 Citroen Saxo - 1.4 Topaz

    #45 7th April 2012, 20:56

    great thread mate, really well done