225 lb/in front springs, VTR with OE dampers?

11th May 2009, 19:14

Searched, found a document on AST coilovers...but not what im looking for.

I've been offered 225 lb/in front lowering springs for my car off of a stock hatch race car (which has now gone higher lb/in), but I'm running standard dampers...

How will the combination of lowered torsion bars, standard dampers and 225 lb/in front springs go? Anybody know?

Do note that I'm looking for handling not looks, so handling related replies will be good. Not looking for comfort either.

11th May 2009, 19:19

no, the dampers will not match the frequencies at all..

i use 225lb springs with bilstein group n dampers and its still not perfect.

11th May 2009, 19:21

you deffinately need higher lb rated dampers

11th May 2009, 19:22

My thoughts exactly, okay then cheers guys thanks for the help.

11th May 2009, 20:40

it will be rubbish.
You will have a really bad handling car, with damping issues at the front and your car will understeer due to a soft rear.
Personally I think anything over 180lb on the front needs an upgrade to the rear.
By all means get the springs but you need to spend money elsewhere.

Kev

13th May 2009, 19:36

I ended up buying them, as of being cheap (30£) as said they are 225 lb faulkner springs, cheap way of lowering the car, yet I will probably need to get thicker torsion bars to balance the car.

Kev, do you think the car would be more balanced with a 24mm torsion bar? (still standard dampers...)

Will have to see what happens, if worst comes to worst they are a bargain so I can sell them on.

13th May 2009, 19:39

Weve already said dont use the std dampers, so dont.

Rear will want at least 21mm t bars, poss 22mm.

Did you mean 24mm arb? you can fit one but it wont affect damping.

13th May 2009, 19:52

I'm copying stock hatch race car specs pretty much...

24mm (and sometimes greater) is used on many of the cars for torsion bars, and I do know it wont affect damping.

The springs are ideal for uprated dampers running on the road (not too extreme, yet stiff), and eventually I want to get some single adjustable dampers...torsion bar...etc

Is the basic opinion that I should wait untill I get the dampers to run the springs?

13th May 2009, 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack_VTR_MKII

I ended up buying them, as of being cheap (30£) as said they are 225 lb faulkner springs, cheap way of lowering the car, yet I will probably need to get thicker torsion bars to balance the car.

Kev, do you think the car would be more balanced with a 24mm torsion bar? (still standard dampers...)

Will have to see what happens, if worst comes to worst they are a bargain so I can sell them on.

24mm torsion bars on standard dampers = not the best idea imo

I think you mean 24mm arb?

13th May 2009, 20:00

No, seriously I mean 24mm torsion bars, but I think it's fair to say there is no point in doing torsion bars and springs without the dampers being uprated, only problem is im tight on money, but id rather save and have a proper setup then bosh some stuff together bit by bit as it will unbalance the handling characteristics...

13th May 2009, 20:01

id deffo want to do it properly.

I need to upgrade my rear dampers as even with groupNs we feel they underdamp 22mm bars

13th May 2009, 20:05

Look at pugsport fronts. thats what im running, uber hard but handles like a treat

13th May 2009, 20:07

I won't be getting group N dampers as I believe they are inferior to the custom racing dampers used in stock hatch, I'd like to get LEDA or AST (custom) dampers, hence why it will take a long time.

13th May 2009, 20:07

To save up for them I mean (apologies for double post)

13th May 2009, 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack_VTR_MKII

I won't be getting group N dampers as I believe they are inferior to the custom racing dampers used in stock hatch, I'd like to get LEDA or AST (custom) dampers, hence why it will take a long time.

AST and LEDA are not just dampers though when you think about it as they are a coilover set up, LEDA have still got quite a bad reputation for build quality from the early days of leaky dampers.

When pugsport dampers are rated to either 280lb or 300lb depending on spec and can be got for not huge money you can deffo have a very good set up on a budget

13th May 2009, 20:10

just to let you know that youd expect to run 300lb+ on the front to warrant using 23mm torsion bars so 24mm bars id expect to be around 400lb on the front wich is far too stiff on road tyres.

i think you need to re-evaluate your setup as you are intending on running a full on track setup on the road? wich will not work very well at all to be honest.

13th May 2009, 20:23

Ryan, AST and LEDA do make custom specs for stock hatch, single adjustable dampers, the dampers by AST are over 1000£, don't know about LEDA...

I agree as to LEDA, I'd rather buy AST (my brothers race car has them, they are great)

I expect the reply as to why on earth I'd buy single adjustable which are so expensive when I could buy coilovers, but the reason why is I may want to build a stock hatch race car in future and scavenge the parts for use.

Danny, good point mate, my brother mentioned the front springs 225 were the right sort of stiffness for road tyres, and the car it was from run 24mm torsion bar, semi slicks, and went up to over 325 lb/in as he said they were too soft...

So that makes sense, I might have to ponder on the torsion bar decision to balance it out as and when I purchase the dampers.

13th May 2009, 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

AST and LEDA are not just dampers though when you think about it as they are a coilover set up, LEDA have still got quite a bad reputation for build quality from the early days of leaky dampers.

When pugsport dampers are rated to either 280lb or 300lb depending on spec and can be got for not huge money you can deffo have a very good set up on a budget

yay ryan agrees with me

13th May 2009, 20:28

what is the car for matey?

13th May 2009, 20:35

In short, stock hatch spec. road car, if that makes sense.

In detail, I want the car to have stock hatch compatible modifications, the use of the car is for alot of track day use and a road car. Therefore, I want to keep the interior, and use road tyres while taking everything else as far as possible (again, within the stock hatch specs).

As for suspension that means the dampers/springs/torsion bars may be uprated, dampers may only be single adjustable.

Comfort I'm not bothered about.

Hope that makes sense.

13th May 2009, 20:39

The problem is stock hatch cars are not road cars, if you plan to do alot of road milage still the suspension can actually be to hard and make you slower on the road, especially on a surface which are on country lanes.

A hardcore set up is fantastic on a flat smooth track but a bit different down a country lane.

13th May 2009, 20:44

I don't mind compromising road handling for track handling, I don't wish to drive fast on public roads anyway particularly, but I understand what your saying as the car may hop alot, but I'm sure a setup based on the 225 front springs and with good dampers won't be too harsh as in losing contact with the road every two seconds on a country lane?

13th May 2009, 20:45

right, if the car is going to be used on the road more (wich is most likely) then a stock hatch setup wont be remotely anywhere near as quick as a fast road car....
even with 225lb springs (wich i am using at the moment) you are skipping and hopping all over undulations in the road especially when braking. if i were building a car for what your going to use the car for i would NOT go over 200lb springs.

the simple fact is, the stock hatch is a race car. and race cars dont make good road cars........... there is a compramise wich is very hard to find and governed by driving style and other things.

please dont think im trying to put you off or giving you false information, im just trying to give you the best advice.

damit ryanal!!!!!

13th May 2009, 20:56

This feedback is very much appreciated guys, helping me decide alot.

But as I said I will willingly make the comprimise, no matter how bad it is on the road as to improve track performance.

Out of interest danny, what is the full suspension setup your running? and how do you find it for the track/road in relation to under and oversteer, balance etc?

13th May 2009, 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack_VTR_MKII

This feedback is very much appreciated guys, helping me decide alot.

But as I said I will willingly make the comprimise, no matter how bad it is on the road as to improve track performance.

Out of interest danny, what is the full suspension setup your running? and how do you find it for the track/road in relation to under and oversteer, balance etc?

Are you willing to take a compramise in safety though? as its not just about comfort and ride if its dangerously hard for road use.

13th May 2009, 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack_VTR_MKII

This feedback is very much appreciated guys, helping me decide alot.

But as I said I will willingly make the comprimise, no matter how bad it is on the road as to improve track performance.

Out of interest danny, what is the full suspension setup your running? and how do you find it for the track/road in relation to under and oversteer, balance etc?

im using 225lb main springs, 40lb helpers, sperical bearing top mounts, bilstein group n dampers, standard rear torsion bars, rear billie group n's, rose jointed droplinks etc etc..

it is very very good on track, the semi slicks help that though.. on the road its too stiff on front, could do with thicker tb's maybe 21mm for road...

my setup will be changing drastically soon though as its going to be a full on trackday car.

26th June 2009, 13:56

I accidentally found this thread. I've run 280lb springs on the front of a 205 on the road without issues. Thats with Eibach ERS springs which are probably the best around.

Kev

26th June 2009, 14:04

Since kam bumped it ill add my 2 pence.
If your still wanting some dampers im selling my pugsport ones which are well matched to 225lb springs. pm if your interested

26th June 2009, 14:43

might as well get Mr_N's kit. The thing with the stock hatch suspension is that it is built to fit the regulations so is expensive. They are not allowed to use coilovers.

26th June 2009, 15:11

Kam speaks sence, buy my kit