Cam timing, Confused.

1. Olly Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Meerkat Harborough Posts: 2638 Saxo vtr mk 2

   #1 1st June 2009, 21:01

   Rite have read loads of threads etc, n pretty confused. (probs more confused that when i started to find out)
   
   When fitting Aftermarket cams, in my case catcam 708's, do you fit them to standard timing pins on the cam pulleys and at tdc on the crank?
   
   Or do you have to fit them differently as it gives a lift @tdc figure in there spec.
   
   A guy who builds engines for a living and supercharged his vts fitted my 708's for me and upon startup after putting the engine in it seemed very tappy. Now i thought this was the tappets or whatever filling with oil, as he said it would be tappy after dis-assembling the head for skim etc. So ran the cams in at 2200 rpm ish, for 15-20 mins. Then switched off and went to drive home.
   
   Now 100 yards down the road it just died, and have now found the cambelt stripped at the crank pulley. Will post a pic of the position of the cam pulleys as they dont line up with the timing pin holes... Which is why i was wondering if they are timed on standard timing pins.???
   
   Im sure il have more questions lol but help would be appreciated.
   
   Thankyou,oli
2. Olly Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Meerkat Harborough Posts: 2638 Saxo vtr mk 2

   #2 1st June 2009, 21:18

   
   
   Now the belt wasnt snapped, just stripped the teeth round the crank pulley. So the cams would be in the same position they were timed to imo. Dont look right to me. There seems to be a huge difference between the two from standard timing pins.
3. user_15516 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 6640 Integra DC5R & VTS

   #3 1st June 2009, 21:18

   They will run on the standard timing holes, or if he has timed them to the lift at TDC on the spec sheet for the cams, that's fine.
   
   The main reason you hear of people using standard timing with these is if they're getting the car mapped - the mapper will alter the timing as they see fit. Every engine is different though so arguably, it'd be best to have the timing adjusted on a set of rollers whilst keeping an eye on AFRs - that's if you're not getting it mapped.
   
   Sounds like he's either made a pigs ear of the timing and you've had piston/ valve contact, or the belt has been far too tight. Was the cambelt brand new? Was it a genuine Citroen item?
   
   I don't know much about 16v timing but, in that picture - is that with cylinder 1 at TDC?
4. Olly Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Meerkat Harborough Posts: 2638 Saxo vtr mk 2

   #4 1st June 2009, 21:22

   Belt was new yeah. was from ECP though.
   
   EDIT
   
   You wouldnt think itdd run for 20+ mins if there was contact though.
5. user_15516 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 6640 Integra DC5R & VTS

   #5 1st June 2009, 21:24

   I take it he turned the engine over by hand before starting to check for any nasty noises etc?
   
   Looking at the pulley on the exhaust cam - are those bolts loose at all?
6. Olly Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Meerkat Harborough Posts: 2638 Saxo vtr mk 2

   #6 1st June 2009, 21:24

   Thats what it ended up like. when belt was stripped and it died.
   
   Yeah turned engine over... i did aswell, no knocks. Was tappy when running though.
7. user_15516 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 6640 Integra DC5R & VTS

   #7 1st June 2009, 21:28

   Ah right - the position of the pulleys is pretty irrelevent then. It's when you've locked the flywheel in place on the front of the block that the marks should line up.
   
   Maybe those bolts on the exhaust cam pulley have worked loose while running and knocked the timing out?
8. Olly Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Meerkat Harborough Posts: 2638 Saxo vtr mk 2

   #8 1st June 2009, 21:29

   Nah the bolts are tight, wether that pulley got pulled round by the belt, then stripped the belt as the exhaust valved bent and jammed the exhaust cam? Dont know what the damage is yet but thats my guess.
9. user_15516 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 6640 Integra DC5R & VTS

   #9 1st June 2009, 21:33

   I'd be taking the head off and checking for bent valves if I were you.
10. Olly Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Meerkat Harborough Posts: 2638 Saxo vtr mk 2

    #10 1st June 2009, 21:36

    Yer he's doing it this week. Just want to know timing, so i can check roughtly lol.
11. user_15516 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 6640 Integra DC5R & VTS

    #11 1st June 2009, 21:38

    The only way to check the timing is with cylinder 1 at TDC (flywheel locked with an allen key on the front of the block) but you've no way of turning it over if the belt has stripped. It's probably not advisable to turn it over in its current state anyway.
    
    Actually...since the belt is toast the timing will be out anyway - so there's no way of knowing what the timing was!
12. Olly Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Meerkat Harborough Posts: 2638 Saxo vtr mk 2

    #12 1st June 2009, 21:48

    Quote:

    Actually...since the belt is toast the timing will be out anyway - so there's no way of knowing what the timing was!

    Well the belt would have stripped but the cam pulleys would still be in relation to each-other. If you get what i mean. There either both well off timing or one is seriously off lol. Dunno how it ran..
    
    EDIT
    
    Just re-read, I mean i want to check it when its back together, before i start it up next time lol. Havent got the engine atm, its out the car in his workshop.
13. raunchz Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R

    #13 1st June 2009, 22:05

    Timing is now way out and I'd say you've definately had valve contact. I'd budget for a full head rebuild, start saving now
14. raunchz Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R

    #14 1st June 2009, 22:10

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sax-oli Nah the bolts are tight, wether that pulley got pulled round by the belt, then stripped the belt as the exhaust valved bent and jammed the exhaust cam? Dont know what the damage is yet but thats my guess.

    Sorry have just actually read the thread! Sounds a logical suggestion, I'd look into the future and get it sorted!
15. user_10176 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jun 2006 Ramsey st marys, peterborough Posts: 8288 Saxo's, Corsa (Daily)

    #15 1st June 2009, 22:39

    well even to the 708 timing spec where the pins line up they will not be that far off,
    
    as they only really get retarded or advance about alittle bit tbf, as they are not that far off standard timing marks,
    
    i set mine to stand timing marks and it ran ok, was with newman PH3
    
    andy
16. user_10176 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jun 2006 Ramsey st marys, peterborough Posts: 8288 Saxo's, Corsa (Daily)

    #16 1st June 2009, 22:41

    there is a key way on the cam veriner which line up on the camshafts, and they will only go in one place, should always put them in standard timing marks then adjust them to the cam specs.
    
    hope you sort it out.
    
    andy
17. williamsvts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 northumberland Posts: 7693 pulsar gtir, mk4 astra sxi

    #17 2nd June 2009, 09:09

    is he taking the piss mate???? that is MILES out on the exhaust cam!!!!!!!
    
    who ever fitted the cams is completely to blame for killing your engine if thats how they were timed in.
    
    inlet looks about right in that pic, maybe a bit too much lift, but the exhaust is stupidly far out.
18. user_10176 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jun 2006 Ramsey st marys, peterborough Posts: 8288 Saxo's, Corsa (Daily)

    #18 2nd June 2009, 11:20

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by williamsvts is he taking the piss mate???? that is MILES out on the exhaust cam!!!!!!! who ever fitted the cams is completely to blame for killing your engine if thats how they were timed in. inlet looks about right in that pic, maybe a bit too much lift, but the exhaust is stupidly far out.

    that what i said it is out by at bit,
    
    but it might of jump, but i dont think it can jump that far tbf,
    
    yer look about 5 or 6 mm there
    
    andy
19. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #19 2nd June 2009, 11:32

    Williams, doesn't it depend on where the pulley was set when the cam were first fitted?
20. williamsvts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 northumberland Posts: 7693 pulsar gtir, mk4 astra sxi

    #20 2nd June 2009, 11:40

    no because it has a lobe which locates on the cam.
    they should be about 1.5mm away from lining up with the locating holes in the head, what it looks like is that he has dialled the inlet in on the right cylinder, and dialled it in on the wrong cylinder for the exhaust cams.
    
    and that tapping noise you will of been hearing will b the valves catchin the piston or eachother.
21. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #21 2nd June 2009, 11:42

    Gotcha. So looking at the picture, the exhaust cam is almost a whole tooth out!
22. user_15516 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 6640 Integra DC5R & VTS

    #22 2nd June 2009, 11:42

    Is that picture he posted not the position of pulleys after the engine died?
23. williamsvts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 northumberland Posts: 7693 pulsar gtir, mk4 astra sxi

    #23 2nd June 2009, 11:43

    yea, when fitting everything should line up when at TDC, the crank and both cams. they you would set the timing of the cams, and with 708s the locating holes on the pulley should be around 1mm-1.5mm from the holes on the head.
24. user_10176 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jun 2006 Ramsey st marys, peterborough Posts: 8288 Saxo's, Corsa (Daily)

    #24 2nd June 2009, 13:02

    yer maybe it jump when he was drving?
    
    but if it set to that in the first place it way out on the Ex side!
    
    andy
25. user_10176 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jun 2006 Ramsey st marys, peterborough Posts: 8288 Saxo's, Corsa (Daily)

    #25 2nd June 2009, 13:04

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by williamsvts yea, when fitting everything should line up when at TDC, the crank and both cams. they you would set the timing of the cams, and with 708s the locating holes on the pulley should be around 1mm-1.5mm from the holes on the head.

    yer tbh, when timing up cams they really dont get advance or reatard that much, as i did worry about that, but i have found out that they dont need moving that much,
    
    also sorry to take off topic but thanks williamsvts for the help and advice you gave me, the cleanance where ok
26. Olly Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Meerkat Harborough Posts: 2638 Saxo vtr mk 2

    #26 2nd June 2009, 20:55

    Rite bit of an update. Shitty News tbh and nothing that i expected to be the outcome. I must have been drinking dr pepper when i bought this engine....
    
    Aparantely the engine failure was down to starvation of oil, So basically fucked everything top end. Cams, cam ladders, head, followers... few bent valves. As there was no oil heated the metal through friction obviously and wore away at the cams and the head. So there is bad soring on both where they meet. Wether the pulleys jumped a few teeth on the belt as it siezed with the heat i dunno. Bit of a shitter really. Dead loss on the cams n head money wise, time to get another complete head i think. Oh and an oil pump . Not the best news ive ever had! Impossible to say on the timing as i never looked before i started it. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Thanks for alll ur help n suggestions, Got some thinking to do and maybe some saving!!! Oli.
27. user_15516 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 6640 Integra DC5R & VTS

    #27 2nd June 2009, 21:23

    That's a real kick in the teeth bud. I'd be looking for a low mileage C2 engine if it was me!
28. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #28 2nd June 2009, 23:05

    Damn, that's awful news. Sorry to hear dude...
29. williamsvts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 northumberland Posts: 7693 pulsar gtir, mk4 astra sxi

    #29 3rd June 2009, 08:34

    tbh mate, if i had just built an engine up i would of checked. if it hadnt stopped tapping after 10 mins your engine builder shouldve took the oil cap off and noticed that there was no oil getting to the head.
    had that problem before.
    by doing that he could have eliminated some problems and stopped the engine dying.
30. williamsvts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 northumberland Posts: 7693 pulsar gtir, mk4 astra sxi

    #30 3rd June 2009, 08:36

    is the head gasket on the right way round?
31. raunchz Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R

    #31 3rd June 2009, 11:39

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by williamsvts is the head gasket on the right way round?

    there's your problem right there!
32. Olly Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Meerkat Harborough Posts: 2638 Saxo vtr mk 2

    #32 3rd June 2009, 21:38

    Was thinking that about the headgasket. Could have been. i really dont know.Would have to be a goon to do it though... surely. And no way to prove! Am looking at high comp pistons and a big valve head / cams atm. Mite aswell have a build project and do it myself now. Just time is the issue! Looks like its 8v time again.
33. user_10176 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jun 2006 Ramsey st marys, peterborough Posts: 8288 Saxo's, Corsa (Daily)

    #33 4th June 2009, 07:09

    did you change the H/G when you changed the cams?
    
    and you can prove it, if the head gasket was the wrong way round you will not as one side say up on it.
    
    andy
34. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #34 4th June 2009, 08:20

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by williamsvts is the head gasket on the right way round?

    Did the guy doing the work have his head on the right war round?
35. Olly Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Meerkat Harborough Posts: 2638 Saxo vtr mk 2

    #35 4th June 2009, 17:36

    Nah I took it back to him to take it apart n see what was wrong. But seriously doubt that it would have been. If its got up written on it and you check all the galleries then its a no brainer.
36. user_10176 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jun 2006 Ramsey st marys, peterborough Posts: 8288 Saxo's, Corsa (Daily)

    #36 4th June 2009, 20:28

    so did he change the H/G?
    
    as if he did by the sound of it he got it the wrong way round which would stop the oil getting to the head!!
    
    but if he check the engine over right, like you should do after you do anything! he would not of had this problem, he must not of check to make sure that the oil was getting to the head,
    
    sorry that it gone wrong for you like this, but if i wasyou i would take back to the bloke who did and ask him to explain what he did, also if you get him to strip it back down i would watch him, and when he gets to the H/G dont let him take it off! and then you check if it was the right way round, if not tell him he should have to cover to cost!
    
    andy
37. Olly Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Meerkat Harborough Posts: 2638 Saxo vtr mk 2

    #37 4th June 2009, 21:56

    Lol the thing is i thought he had timed it wrong for a start and had bent a few valves etc... so he had it back and was gonna sort it. Once he had the head off/ apart it was aparant what the problem really was, and also means i have no way of knowing if the headgasket was on right! Bit of a shitter. Could be the oil pump.
38. williamsvts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 northumberland Posts: 7693 pulsar gtir, mk4 astra sxi

    #38 4th June 2009, 22:19

    was there a problem with engine before you fitted the cams?
39. Olly Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Meerkat Harborough Posts: 2638 Saxo vtr mk 2

    #39 4th June 2009, 22:32

    dunno williams is a new unit to me. Was bought sold as seen out of a written off vts, so obviously ran before crash. but dont know what damage may have happened as a result/if it was on its way out. Feel like im arguing against you guys, dunno why i am lol.
40. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

    #40 5th June 2009, 08:07

    Oli - this seriously sounds like the head gasket was in upside down. It starves the head of oil, and makes a ticking sound since the followers don't get oil.
    
    The reason we don't think it's the oil pump because obviously you drove it, and obviously the oil pressure warning light DIDN'T come on, since you'd have mentioned it having driven it,and noticed it therefore there WAS oil pressure.
    
    it sounds to me like this is an open and shut case. I've got a VTS engine head and block you can buy if you like, you'll need to skim the head (any head you fit on your bottom nd to be honest)!
    
    Kind regards
    
    Andy