Difference In Torsion Bars Forest / Tarmac SORTED GMC Spring Rate??

12th June 2009, 10:00

Didnt know there was a difference?

About to buy some and he states they are forest torsion bars?

Only going to be using them on tarmac.

Something to do with the spring rate of the steel????

12th June 2009, 11:07

as i thought its the size which determines forest / tarmac.

12th June 2009, 11:12

Linky?

12th June 2009, 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Linky?

To what Mr Toad?

12th June 2009, 11:33

Could you reveal the difference?

12th June 2009, 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by saxo_ron

Could you reveal the difference?

i just did.

21mm is considered forest/gravel use.

22mm upwards tarmac.

I just wasnt sure if it was something to do with how the steel is treated during production.

for example you dont want to go much more than 21mm for your rear arb on gravel etc.

Alex confirmed on shed, plus did some googling, but took me ages to find some decent info.

12th June 2009, 11:48

A link of where you're thinking of getting the TB's from. I'm looking for some too, but not looking to pay upwards of £400 - Peugeot Sport prices!

12th June 2009, 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

A link of where you're thinking of getting the TB's from. I'm looking for some too, but not looking to pay upwards of £400 - Peugeot Sport prices!

ah sorry dude, am getting them off someone who is splitting their car.

There is a guy on ebay does them, so if this falls through al be sorting a group buy, iirc he does them £195 delivered currently for a pair.

But think if i got 5 people it was like £175. Will have to troll through all my old e-mails.

If you want thicker than 23mm you have to pay more.

12th June 2009, 12:11

Cheers mate.

Defo don't want thicker than 23mm! Not keen on buying from Ebay... But needs must and all.

12th June 2009, 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Cheers mate.

Defo don't want thicker than 23mm! Not keen on buying from Ebay... But needs must and all.

I have proper contact details for him at home.
As he wanted to ring me to discuss rather than e-mail.
He has some decent feedback from people who have bought bars from him in the past.

Ideally i was wanting 22mm but never mind

Just waiting on this guy texting me back to confirm they are mine and i can get them tonight.

If not al sort a group buy for the end of july.

12th June 2009, 12:44

Cool, nice one.

I may not need one, but we'll see. I'm going to run 275lbs spring on the front, and grp N tarmac dampers on the rear. I might get a way with stock TBs, but not sure.

12th June 2009, 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Cool, nice one.

I may not need one, but we'll see. I'm going to run 275lbs spring on the front, and grp N tarmac dampers on the rear. I might get a way with stock TBs, but not sure.

i run group n' shocks on the rear with 19mm tb's just doesnt feel right tbh

12th June 2009, 12:49

The rear is so stiff anyway because of the design.

12th June 2009, 13:00

al see what difference these make, al not be doing a group buy as i get my 21mm bars tonight

I did drive my mates car with 22mm bars i think they were, car does feel better to drive.

Group N rears rock btw

not rock as in body roll

12th June 2009, 14:11

Hehe. Gotta be careful, as stiffin' up the rear makes the car harder to drive.

12th June 2009, 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Hehe. Gotta be careful, as stiffin' up the rear makes the car harder to drive.

certainly does

await the i crashed my car in the wet thread.

lol slides all over as it is on them parada spec 2 tyres, never trust tyre review sites, shittest tyres i have ever had. Squeal round every single corner in the dry, even if going slow

actually gave me a bad head at the ring, was sick of it in the end.

12th June 2009, 14:31

Haha. R888s FTW. Cheap as chips and last for ages on normal roads / driving conditions too.

12th June 2009, 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_VTS

certainly does

await the i crashed my car in the wet thread.

lol slides all over as it is on them parada spec 2 tyres, never trust tyre review sites, shittest tyres i have ever had. Squeal round every single corner in the dry, even if going slow

actually gave me a bad head at the ring, was sick of it in the end.

ahhh, remember our short discussion on those tyres when you got them in your progress thread! I found they wernt that bad in the dry though! However, they did squeal a lot!

12th June 2009, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by db_sax

ahhh, remember our short discussion on those tyres when you got them in your progress thread! I found they wernt that bad in the dry though! However, they did squeal a lot!

yep.... total shite i think haha

12th June 2009, 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Haha. R888s FTW. Cheap as chips and last for ages on normal roads / driving conditions too.

going to get some, and stick the paradas on my s rimmage, bet they last longer than the paradas aswel lol

12th June 2009, 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_VTS

yep.... total shite i think haha

exaltos ftw.

12th June 2009, 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

exaltos ftw.

pricey lol
will get toyo t1-r's again after i burn these mo fo's out, cant see them lasting after i rape them round croft lol

12th June 2009, 15:52

Its going to be interesting how different my car feels with this years set up compared to last years...

12th June 2009, 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsaxo

Its going to be interesting how different my car feels with this years set up compared to last years...

cant remember what set up you had mate, what you going for now.

My current once these are in tomorrow.

Bilstein Group N Fronts
GMC 40mm Springs
Standard 22mm Front Arb
Group N Top Mounts
Strut Braces
Powerflex Front Arb Bushes
Powerflex Front Middle Wishbone Bushes
Bilstein Group N Rears
21mm Pugsport Torsion Bars
24mm Rear Arb
Powerflex Axle Mounting Bushes
Powerflex Lower Gearbox Mount
Group N Upper Gearbox Mount

What lb are the GMC springs, tempted to get some 200lb ones.

12th June 2009, 16:03

Gone from:-
Group n billies and 175lb springs up front
B8 rear dampers and 24mm arb
Standard torsion bars
Powerflex bushes all round

To:-

Polyrace bushes all round
AST 250lb pugsport damper coilovers up front
Group n Tarmac rear dampers 24mm arb and 22mm rear Torsion bars

12th June 2009, 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_VTS

cant remember what set up you had mate, what you going for now.

My current once these are in tomorrow.

Bilstein Group N Fronts
GMC 40mm Springs
Standard 22mm Front Arb
Group N Top Mounts
Strut Braces
Powerflex Front Arb Bushes
Powerflex Front Middle Wishbone Bushes
Bilstein Group N Rears
21mm Pugsport Torsion Bars
24mm Rear Arb
Powerflex Axle Mounting Bushes
Powerflex Lower Gearbox Mount
Group N Upper Gearbox Mount

What lb are the GMC springs, tempted to get some 200lb ones.

190 irc mate

12th June 2009, 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsaxo

Gone from:-
Group n billies and 175lb springs up front
B8 rear dampers and 24mm arb
Standard torsion bars
Powerflex bushes all round

To:-

Polyrace bushes all round
AST 250lb pugsport damper coilovers up front
Group n Tarmac rear dampers 24mm arb and 22mm rear Torsion bars

nice... group n rears are pretty firm, love mine

i really wanted 22mm torsion bars, but meant to be a bit too hardcore for day to day use....

But i think the caring of day to day use is slowly going out the window lol

12th June 2009, 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by db_sax

190 irc mate

i thought they were around 180lbish but someone said they are more like 160lb, al check their site now.

12th June 2009, 16:15

nah they wont be 190lb, more like 150 Maximum!

12th June 2009, 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_VTS

i thought they were around 180lbish but someone said they are more like 160lb, al check their site now.

yeh your right sorry theyre 160

12th June 2009, 16:24

Cant find much on them, my eyes are hurting from searching SSC lol

People say they are firm, but dont put the rate

12th June 2009, 16:30

Haha thats where i just been looking, which is how i just found out they were 160:

http://www.saxosportsclub.com/Forums...pring+lbs.html

on this thread!

12th June 2009, 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by db_sax

Haha thats where i just been looking, which is how i just found out they were 160:

http://www.saxosportsclub.com/Forums...pring+lbs.html

on this thread!

Just found that one aswel lol

I have the big chunky rear shocks on the left when you scroll down that page

12th June 2009, 16:36

show off....

You can tell the difference when theyre beside each other!

12th June 2009, 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by db_sax

show off....

You can tell the difference when theyre beside each other!

i there fecking beast lol theres quite a bit difference aswel when they are on when you push down on the car (between b8's and group n's)

Probably a fair bit over damping for standard t-bars to be honest, but car still handles really well.

Wish i had got billies from the start instead of mincing on with Koni etc, totally different league.

12th June 2009, 16:50

ohhh! Koni Yellows? I was gonna get the Apex Kit when i had my saxo. When i get my next saxo/106, i think il just save up and get the proper componants in the first place!

You at FCS?

12th June 2009, 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by db_sax

ohhh! Koni Yellows? I was gonna get the Apex Kit when i had my saxo. When i get my next saxo/106, i think il just save up and get the proper componants in the first place!

You at FCS?

yeah had the koni adjustables, were good, but then you get bilsteins and there in a different league.

Nar dude, not bothering this year.

12th June 2009, 21:32

Just picked my genuine PSF 21mm torsion bars up

When i was speaking to the guy, he said he had some 23mm non psf ones that a company had made, hes had them from different companies.
Said not worth the hassle of saving a few quid.

Have loads of trouble getting the ride heights to match, said would set the levels on the arms exactly the same using a dummy shock, then once the bars were in and removed the shock, they would sit miles out from each other.

So little word of warning there lol

He also tried a set off ebay, he wasnt 100% if its the same guy i was going to get mine off, but had the same bother with them.

But the PSF ones he said always spot on.

Seemed to know what he was talking about tbf, was an elderly bloke. Wearing his washed out pug sport members club jumper.

12th June 2009, 21:43

how much did you pay and how much are the PSF ones off the shelf motherhubbard?

12th June 2009, 21:53

GMCs are 150ish, perfect for std bars, could do with being a tad lower though.

12th June 2009, 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

how much did you pay and how much are the PSF ones off the shelf motherhubbard?

Cant tell you how much i paid

Price new is.......

Price: £556.38 (Excluding: VAT at 15%)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexR

GMCs are 150ish, perfect for std bars, could do with being a tad lower though.

Dam right they could, what springs you think i should get brother alexio?

12th June 2009, 22:23

21mm bars?

I used 200lb with grpN bilstein fronts and loved it.

If you can stretch to it, get some more thread machined into the top spindle to shorten them further, 200lb 240mm would be spot on, 250mm is about as short as should be used for standard groupNs, and that will only lower 20mm from standard, which in fact handles extremely well but might not tickle your tastebuds...

12th June 2009, 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexR

21mm bars?

I used 200lb with grpN bilstein fronts and loved it.

If you can stretch to it, get some more thread machined into the top spindle to shorten them further, 200lb 240mm would be spot on, 250mm is about as short as should be used for standard groupNs, and that will only lower 20mm from standard, which in fact handles extremely well but might not tickle your tastebuds...

21mm Bars with Group N Shocks all round.
rears have the blue sleeve not teh black and fronts are the shortened ones iirc.

12th June 2009, 22:30

GrpNs are shortened, you need to modify them more still to get them short enough to use under 250mm springs safely.

I've specced a few 21mm/180lb setups using 240mm and 250mm springs, never had a change to drive but passengered on a few track days in those cars and they drove very well and the owners strived for nothing more out of their setups.

12th June 2009, 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

how much did you pay and how much are the PSF ones off the shelf motherhubbard?

PSF ones are no longer available in certain sizes from PSF, you can pay through the arsehole for companies in the UK who still have stock and their significant mark up

12th June 2009, 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_VTS

Cant tell you how much i paid

Price new is.......

Price: £556.38 (Excluding: VAT at 15%)

bargain.

why o why can't you tell me you nazi?

12th June 2009, 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

bargain.

why o why can't you tell me you nazi?

gmc is alot cheaper then special tunnnnnnage!

£390excl vat he currently has them listed for.

13th June 2009, 00:53

Just for the record Steve - I have the proper Tarmac Group n dampers with the black caps which are even stiffer than the blue capped ones!

Some interesting discussion here, Alex - as you can see i decided to go with the 22mm bars on your recommendation in the end

13th June 2009, 09:55

22s with the right damping and front setup will be immense on track!

15th June 2009, 09:20

I am still baffled lol

Check this shit yo!

Fitted some genuine 21mm pugsport torsion bars the other day.
Car looked to be sitting wonkey.

But that was on a cambered road, if sit it on a flat road the car is level.
Never used to do

I jacked the wheel up to double check, measures 390mm from centre of arch to middle of the hub. On both sides.

But when the wheel was up, i noticed i could push the arm up a good inch or so, and i never could with standard torsion bars

Are they meant to do this?

The car does handle alot better, but i thougt they wouldnt be able to move at all?

My mate who has the same bars said his was the same, but his car is sitting alot lower so when its on a cambered road the distance between wheel and arch isnt noticeable.

Running them with
bilstein group n rears with the blue casing.
24mm Rear ARB
GMC 40mm front springs with the bilstein group n's.

15th June 2009, 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_VTS

certainly does

await the i crashed my car in the wet thread.

lol slides all over as it is on them parada spec 2 tyres, never trust tyre review sites, shittest tyres i have ever had. Squeal round every single corner in the dry, even if going slow

actually gave me a bad head at the ring, was sick of it in the end.

you were told when they were getting fitted they would be shit because of the soft sidewalls............

15th June 2009, 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_VTS

I am still baffled lol

Check this shit yo!

Fitted some genuine 21mm pugsport torsion bars the other day.
Car looked to be sitting wonkey.

But that was on a cambered road, if sit it on a flat road the car is level.
Never used to do

I jacked the wheel up to double check, measures 390mm from centre of arch to middle of the hub. On both sides.

But when the wheel was up, i noticed i could push the arm up a good inch or so, and i never could with standard torsion bars

Are they meant to do this?

The car does handle alot better, but i thougt they wouldnt be able to move at all?

My mate who has the same bars said his was the same, but his car is sitting alot lower so when its on a cambered road the distance between wheel and arch isnt noticeable.

Running them with
bilstein group n rears with the blue casing.
24mm Rear ARB
GMC 40mm front springs with the bilstein group n's.

you def measured both sides right?

15th June 2009, 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by williamsvts

you def measured both sides right?

yes, as said on a flat road it sits the same. Just on a cambered surface.

15th June 2009, 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by williamsvts

you were told when they were getting fitted they would be shit because of the soft sidewalls............

there good in dry just squeal.

Wet they are shit.

15th June 2009, 12:31

ive got 21mm, cocks the rear wheels with ease!

15th June 2009, 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexR

22s with the right damping and front setup will be immense on track!

Rock on

15th June 2009, 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeM

ive got 21mm, cocks the rear wheels with ease!

wtf...

Some guy on ssc said you need to fit them to the correct arm as the bars are different and only spring a certain way?

Thought they were just the same?

So what he is saying, is take them out, and put the right hand bar in the left, and the left hand bar in the right.

15th June 2009, 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_VTS

Fitted some genuine 21mm pugsport torsion bars the other day.
Car looked to be sitting wonkey.

On uneven ground, that's normal. Otherwise, imagine when you jack the rear left side up... It would mean that the right side would go up by the same amount. Obviously this shouldn't happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_VTS

But when the wheel was up, i noticed i could push the arm up a good inch or so, and i never could with standard torsion bars

OK, that sounds very odd. Sounds like you've managed to fit them incorrectly somehow. I have no idea how you could though... lol.

15th June 2009, 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

On uneven ground, that's normal. Otherwise, imagine when you jack the rear left side up... It would mean that the right side would go up by the same amount. Obviously this shouldn't happen.

OK, that sounds very odd. Sounds like you've managed to fit them incorrectly somehow. I have no idea how you could though... lol.

me neither, thats why i am baffled.
My mates is the same haha

strange as fook.

Like i say with the wheels off the ground and measure arch to centre of hub its 390mm on both sides.

15th June 2009, 13:25

Quote:

Torsion bars only twist one way. So naturally left and right torsion bars differ from one another. You must label them when removed as to not install them on the wrong side. A wrongly installed torsion bar is downright dangerous. Not only does the car not sit right, but the torsion bar will eventually snap because the weight of the vehicle is forcing it to twist the wrong way (especially when cornering). That said, torsion bars are a great suspension system easily outlasting a conventional coil spring.

Found that from google.

15th June 2009, 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_VTS

me neither, thats why i am baffled.
My mates is the same haha

strange as fook.

Like i say with the wheels off the ground and measure arch to centre of hub its 390mm on both sides.

There's no problem here, as you've said it sits fine when the ground is level. It should be un-level when the gound is also un-level. My Parent's driveway slopes downwards and also a bit sideways. Looking at the rear of my car, the left tyre sits nearly an inch further up towards the arch.

15th June 2009, 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_VTS

Found that from google.

Well that's obviously shite as torsion bars are not great suspension...

OK, makes sense. I wasn't aware that they only twisted one way. Did the ones you got come labelled up left / right?

15th June 2009, 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Well that's obviously shite as torsion bars are not great suspension...

OK, makes sense. I wasn't aware that they only twisted one way. Did the ones you got come labelled up left / right?

one had RH wrote on it, but that could mean out. E-mailed the guy i got them off.

Read on a few sites that they are designed to twist only one way.

They move up fairly easy when pushing them like. Should be harder i would have thought...

Guy on ssc also said they only twist one way, so if your twisting it the otehr that would explain why its softer.

15th June 2009, 13:52

Hmm. Interesting stuff.

15th June 2009, 13:57

certainly is....

Busy night tomorrow then, takes me longer to get the fucking washers back in! they are a fucking nightmare lol

15th June 2009, 14:18

Oh yeah! I remember those little f**kers. lol.

Do you know where I can get some decent priced 22mm tb's from mate?

15th June 2009, 15:21

Try that ebay guy... He is the cheapest.

Spoke to the guy i got the bars off, said he cant remember if he could lift the arm with the bars in. But said the one with RH on means right handside. So i have put the through the right handside trailing arm.

Going to lower it more anyway, so when i do it al swap the bars around and test.

15th June 2009, 15:53

Cheers to LeeM for checking for me, his moves a good inch also.

I meant he car is solid if i push down on it, but that could just be the shocks, its going to piss it down so i cant adjust tonight

Difference In Torsion Bars Forest / Tarmac *SORTED* GMC Spring Rate??

Difference In Torsion Bars Forest / Tarmac SORTED GMC Spring Rate??