throttle bodies-why-what???????

17th June 2009, 16:50

HI all. i was just wondering.

how much of a differance do tbs make and what ones should i go for ??

im on a budget of 2500 so a turbo is out of the question, , , ,

thanx all . .danny

17th June 2009, 17:04

from what i have read with wild cams, bodies and a decent map should be touching 180bhp maybe more? please correct me if i am wrong? theres a few good makes out there jenvey ect but i think atpower throttle bodies are in at the minute, why is a turbo out of the question with 2500? im sure if you source second hand parts could turbo a vts for that?

17th June 2009, 17:08

you need to research it abit more, use the search button there is alot about Throttle bodies.

well with wilder cams you will need to get high comp or pocket piston so basiclly with 2500 quid maybe PH3 or 708 cams and throttle bodies would all you get,

to biuld a top spec 180 bhp N/A engine would need more than 2500 quid

but please use the search button find all the info there

andy

17th June 2009, 17:11

will do . . thanx alot guys

17th June 2009, 22:58

save your money and buy a turbo'd car and tune that much easier to tune and probably safer in a crash that a saxslow

17th June 2009, 23:06

in a nutshell, Tb's allow your engine to fill a cylinder much closer to 100% of it's volume. Because there is a shorter distance between the top of the velocity stack (atmosphere basically) and the cylinder the restriction is significantly reduced... thus you can get more air into the cylinder which means more fuel which mean more powerrrrr

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17th June 2009, 23:12

Not really if the head has not be ported and polished to accept a higher volume of air then it wont make massive different to get a better Volumetric effiency you need to have bigger intake and exhaust ports to pass the air in and out better

17th June 2009, 23:12

I didn't know that Ads, nice one.

17th June 2009, 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by farry1988

from what i have read with wild cams, bodies and a decent map should be touching 180bhp maybe more? please correct me if i am wrong? theres a few good makes out there jenvey ect but i think atpower throttle bodies are in at the minute, why is a turbo out of the question with 2500? im sure if you source second hand parts could turbo a vts for that?

on standard pistons? Good luck with that

17th June 2009, 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

in a nutshell, Tb's allow your engine to fill a cylinder much closer to 100% of it's volume. Because there is a shorter distance between the top of the velocity stack (atmosphere basically) and the cylinder the restriction is significantly reduced... thus you can get more air into the cylinder which means more fuel which mean more powerrrrr

ads

Plus due to there not being a plenum involved in most cases/individual butterflys for each cylinder it means getting equal/consistent airflow into each cylinder accross all 4 much easyer with the wild cams.

17th June 2009, 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

Not really if the head has not be ported and polished to accept a higher volume of air then it wont make massive different to get a better Volumetric effiency you need to have bigger intake and exhaust ports to pass the air in and out better

it's all part of the bigger picture... you have a smegging long pipe it creates a restriction, you shorten the pipe you reduce the restriction. no idea why people bosh on about porting and polishing so much anyway... once the air is at the head the last few mm's of roughness aren't going to make a staggering difference...

one air intake pipe supplying four cylinders, at say 7000rpm, that's about 90-100mph flow doing through a pipe 2" diameter... restriction land ahoyyyyy

or four intake pipes one per cylinder.... you've reduced the speed of the air and thus less restriction... so it goes in easier.

the butterly is closer to the head meaning the engine response is much higher too...

yada yada

17th June 2009, 23:36

i want bodies

am i right in thinking you wont get the same peak power as a turbo but you'll have more across the entire range and much more consistant power(of course due to no lag)

17th June 2009, 23:43

turbo just means your hitting well well above 100% cylinder volume... so again more air... more fuel... more power...

chances are though it'll hit peak power much earlier in the rev range, but with much higher power outputs (depends on setup) and as a result lots lots lots more torque compared to say a tb setup which favours higher rpms.

17th June 2009, 23:46

is a basic tb setup worth the extra money over just a set of ph3s and remap, or is that half of the cost in those 2?

17th June 2009, 23:47

Am I right in thinking throttle bodies make mpg significantly worse?

17th June 2009, 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

on standard pistons? Good luck with that

that was just a basic idea for him to get started im sure there is loads more to be uprated aswell

17th June 2009, 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mieran

Am I right in thinking throttle bodies make mpg significantly worse?

if you floor it everywhere... yeah...!

17th June 2009, 23:50

No I mean on normal driving. How bad is it compared to the normal air filter setup?

17th June 2009, 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

it's all part of the bigger picture... you have a smegging long pipe it creates a restriction, you shorten the pipe you reduce the restriction. no idea why people bosh on about porting and polishing so much anyway... once the air is at the head the last few mm's of roughness aren't going to make a staggering difference...

one air intake pipe supplying four cylinders, at say 7000rpm, that's about 90-100mph flow doing through a pipe 2" diameter... restriction land ahoyyyyy

or four intake pipes one per cylinder.... you've reduced the speed of the air and thus less restriction... so it goes in easier.

the butterly is closer to the head meaning the engine response is much higher too...

yada yada

Well it does if the air can not flow easily then thats a restriction, if you make the ports bigger you can a bigger volume of air into the cylinder thus given a greater VE

17th June 2009, 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mieran

Am I right in thinking throttle bodies make mpg significantly worse?

Actually when not caining it due to how they are set up they can be more economical

Quote:

Originally Posted by farry1988

that was just a basic idea for him to get started im sure there is loads more to be uprated aswell

Not really helpful though is it saying 180+ is capable without mentioning the need for £500 worth of pistons + fitting though

You asked to be corrected so i did

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

Well it does if the air can not flow easily then thats a restriction, if you make the ports bigger you can a bigger volume of air into the cylinder thus given a greater VE

Bigger doesnt allways mean better, a larger port can slow down gas speed, and be crap for a fuel mix aswell.

17th June 2009, 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

Well it does if the air can not flow easily then thats a restriction, if you make the ports bigger you can a bigger volume of air into the cylinder thus given a greater VE

I'm not sure what you're arsewaffling on about to be honest man... he's asked why go for TB's... I've explain what they're doing to increase power... you're munching on about porting and polishing the head.

of course it'll reduce the restriction P&Ping it, but as much as TB's? no. There are loads of ways of increasing V.E... you may as well just point him in the direction of the engine tuning FAQ

18th June 2009, 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mieran

No I mean on normal driving. How bad is it compared to the normal air filter setup?

no bloody idea dude but if it's a light foot then isn't any reason for it to at least get the same as no tb'd... at that level you've got some form of remap on the car which are usually give better economy anyway

ads

18th June 2009, 00:01

because alot of things said on this forum is bollocks, i come on here to have a good laugh at idiots and quite frankly you completed that today. half of whats said on this forum is bollocks glad i got rid of my saxo if there is loads of muppets that talk shit 24/7

18th June 2009, 00:02

tb's reduce fuel economy because they sound amazing and you'll always be reving it lol

18th June 2009, 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

Actually when not caining it due to how they are set up they can be more economical

Not really helpful though is it saying 180+ is capable without mentioning the need for £500 worth of pistons + fitting though

You asked to be corrected so i did

Bigger doesnt allways mean better, a larger port can slow down gas speed, and be crap for a fuel mix aswell.

OK!!!!!

18th June 2009, 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

because alot of things said on this forum is bollocks, i come on here to have a good laugh at idiots and quite frankly you completed that today. half of whats said on this forum is bollocks glad i got rid of my saxo if there is loads of muppets that talk shit 24/7

lol....

bog off then.

18th June 2009, 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

lol....

bog off then.

Like i said its a massive laugh on here, its full of

's

18th June 2009, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

because alot of things said on this forum is bollocks, i come on here to have a good laugh at idiots and quite frankly you completed that today. half of whats said on this forum is bollocks glad i got rid of my saxo if there is loads of muppets that talk shit 24/7

Dont let the door hit you on the way out

18th June 2009, 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

Dont let the door hit you on the way out

i like the laugh not going far

18th June 2009, 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

i like the laugh not going far

well stay out of the technical section then... feel free to post waffling in the other sections though

18th June 2009, 00:09

dan-dan your head needs port and polishing, maybe that you you can take through some knowledge and stop being a twat.

18th June 2009, 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

well stay out of the technical section then... feel free to post waffling in the other sections though

Why not many people on here know owt technical they just say what they have read in a mag or off the internet thats easy done. not many people know whats is happening, how it happens, how to improve or fix a fault

18th June 2009, 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mieran

dan-dan your head needs port and polishing, maybe that you you can take through some knowledge and stop being a twat.

Another idiot joined the convo

18th June 2009, 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

Why not many people on here know owt technical they just say what they have read in a mag or off the internet thats easy done. not many people know whats is happening, how it happens, how to improve or fix a fault

I'm clueless as to why you keep posting... he asked about throttle bodies, I gave him the answer.

I promise you I neither read garbage off da internet or from a magazine - but I can't change a wheel to save my life.

18th June 2009, 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

I'm clueless as to why you keep posting... he asked about throttle bodies, I gave him the answer.

I promise you I neither read garbage off da internet or from a magazine - but I can't change a wheel to save my life.

why do you reply then, i gave him someting else to think about saying that im more used to turbos than shite N/A cars

18th June 2009, 00:18

just a thought... is he trolling or has he escaped the down syndrome dungeon, got on a free computer, and started posting random pap?

18th June 2009, 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

Why not many people on here know owt technical they just say what they have read in a mag or off the internet thats easy done. not many people know whats is happening, how it happens, how to improve or fix a fault

Im still awaiting an explanation as to why bigger is better, when smaller butterlfys/ports/valves are used in alot of engines over the biggest one humanly possible (and im talking about tuned not just productionline)

18th June 2009, 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

why do you reply then, i gave him someting else to think about saying that im more used to turbos than shite N/A cars

He asked about throttle bodies, did he ask if you thought they were shite?

18th June 2009, 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

just a thought... is he trolling or has he escaped the down syndrome dungeon, got on a free computer, and started posting random pap?

Think thats you looking at the profile pic

18th June 2009, 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

He asked about throttle bodies, did he ask if you thought they were shite?

He didint ask for bollocks from you lot but you still gave it him

18th June 2009, 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

Think thats you looking at the profile pic

was this a fail of a witty insult or just another shit post?

answer.... both.

christ man... do yourself a favour and stop posting

18th June 2009, 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

Im still awaiting an explanation as to why bigger is better, when smaller butterlfys/ports/valves are used in alot of engines over the biggest one humanly possible (and im talking about tuned not just productionline)

Shows what you know then dont it really, any propper tuner that knows his stuff will tell you the same. goes to show you the perseption of saxo drivers and that they are idiots is true really with the muppets on here

18th June 2009, 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

was this a fail of a witty insult or just another shit post?

answer.... both.

christ man... do yourself a favour and stop posting

18th June 2009, 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

He didint ask for bollocks from you lot but you still gave it him

alright alright... I lied about everything in my answer to him... I'm sorry you've busted me.

dan dan dan dan dan please explain how I posted bollocks... you're boring me - the response better be good.

18th June 2009, 00:26

I give up you cant teach PORK!!!! bye

's

18th June 2009, 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

He didint ask for bollocks from you lot but you still gave it him

so still unable to reply to a techincal comment. Well done sir your keyboard is considerably bigger than all of ours.

Again, mr I am teh 'one' care to explain why smaller butterflys/valves/ports are used instead of just going for the biggest possible if its the best route?

Instead of spouting any tuner nonsense, post WHY.

18th June 2009, 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

Why not many people on here know owt technical they just say what they have read in a mag or off the internet thats easy done. not many people know whats is happening, how it happens, how to improve or fix a fault

Providing what is being repeated comes from a reliable source I don't see any problem with that, you had to learn from somewhere, or did you single-handedly create the four-stroke engine?

Head modifications can be worthwhile but it needs to be done with consideration for the overall aims of the engine build.

And Ryan is exactly right in what he says about excessive port size, I've seen the results myself on other engines. Go read any book on cylinder head modifying if you're interested, Vizard, Burgess etc.

18th June 2009, 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

I give up you cant teach PORK!!!! bye

's

I was expecting a slightly better response in all honesty...

18th June 2009, 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBain

Providing what is being repeated comes from a reliable source I don't see any problem with that, you had to learn from somewhere, or did you single-handedly create the four-stroke engine?

Head modifications can be worthwhile but it needs to be done with consideration for the overall aims of the engine build.

And Ryan is exactly right in what he says about excessive port size, I've seen the results myself on other engines. Go read any book on cylinder head modifying if you're interested, Vizard, Burgess etc.

I never said excessive, i was implying the port size would have to have been right for the build in question. thought all these geninuse's would know that

18th June 2009, 00:33

You still here?

18th June 2009, 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

I never said excessive, i was implying the port size would have to have been right for the build in question. thought all these geninuse's would know that

just stop posting...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

Not really if the head has not be ported and polished to accept a higher volume of air then it wont make massive different to get a better Volumetric effiency you need to have bigger intake and exhaust ports to pass the air in and out better

so you're basically saying if the 'head remains standard then having Itb's on a car is pointless as they won't 'make a massive difference' in V.E. improvements'?

because it that's how the post reads...

18th June 2009, 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

I never said excessive, i was implying the port size would have to have been right for the build in question. thought all these geninuse's would know that

Fair enough, but it's well known that the 16v head can produce very good results without modification, its not the most restrictive part of the intake system in this case. Different engines, different situation. Plus this is all a bit OT really.

Some people talk shit but thats life. And I've spoken to plenty of engine builders who are full of it. But What Ryan and Adsayer are saying is correct.

18th June 2009, 01:15

I'll stick up for you Ads! Who wants some eh? Come on!

18th June 2009, 09:42

what if i pushed my budget up to 4000 ?????
im curently in afganistan and im due home mid september , so ill have abit more money then

but i still want to go down the na route , , ,thanx , danny

18th June 2009, 11:04

im sure 4 grand could get you new pistons to use with ph4's and a good tb and ecu setup. could see good power with that amount of money

18th June 2009, 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

because alot of things said on this forum is bollocks, i come on here to have a good laugh at idiots and quite frankly you completed that today. half of whats said on this forum is bollocks glad i got rid of my saxo if there is loads of muppets that talk shit 24/7

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

Like i said its a massive laugh on here, its full of

's

So you full of bollox yourself mate. You Come on here laughing at the advice and knowledge being given, you try and outsmart it, but then you fail and complain of geeks on here? What sense does that make?

I can asure you Adz and Ryan know what theyre talking about, you fucking dumb dick. Get your cuntyballs out of nottingham your not wanted around here, you thick shit.

18th June 2009, 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by banke

what if i pushed my budget up to 4000 ?????
im curently in afganistan and im due home mid september , so ill have abit more money then

but i still want to go down the na route , , ,thanx , danny

for 180, you're probably looking at about 5k all in. maybe slightly more

18th June 2009, 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-dan

I never said excessive, i was implying the port size would have to have been right for the build in question. thought all these geninuse's would know that

Nobody else notice that?

18th June 2009, 17:26

I'm getting around the same mpg as before cams and tb's

18th June 2009, 17:49

hey ppl , ,
iv decided to go down the tb route and i was thinking of getting a set of at power bodies.

will they be hard to fit or will it be a garage job ??

many thanx ..
danny

18th June 2009, 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by banke

hey ppl , ,
iv decided to go down the tb route and i was thinking of getting a set of at power bodies.

will they be hard to fit or will it be a garage job ??

many thanx ..
danny

No there not really hard to fit mate, if you've got a little bit of mechanical knowledge you should be fine. Hardest part is getting them running properly, so an after market ECU will be needed and this will need to be mapped by someone who knows what they are doing. Thats the only hard bit, but someone else will do that for you if you give them some money

18th June 2009, 18:51

At should be a bolt on.. how handy are you? lol

team it up with the pred ecu.