Run down of 16V uprated camshafts

18th July 2009, 04:14

Ok so youve got the ones everyone knows about, the PH3s and the 708s, and the lesser ones below them, at the limit of the single TB.

What are the more lairy ones you can run on the J4/JP4? And what do you need for each aswell as the solid lifters, TBs etc, what kind of spec high cimp pistons?

Ive searched around on here/RR/SSC but cant find anything definitive

Cheers

18th July 2009, 04:15

Id be interested in this also. Is there anything slightly more lairy than the 708s that would even see slight gains above them on a track car where emissions arent a problem.

18th July 2009, 11:29

newmans ph3s are the lumpiest you can run on standard inlet. 708s etc are a very similar profile but with ever so slight difference in duration. (a fraction smaller)

different companies sell there own lifters and recommend changing them for there own brand lifters.

there is no need for this.

newmans now sell OEM replacentment lifters instead of there own brand. they recommend changing them but due to someones cammed vts shattering 3 sets of newmans lifters they now sell OEM lifters instead.

my vts aswell as several people i know have put these profile cam shafts in on the same lifters there vts came out of the factory with and they run fine. i have done 12000 miles on mine now and not a problem at all.

as for wilder profile cams for itbs etc i have no experiance with these engines so someone else will have to step in there

18th July 2009, 13:48

yer also kent cam ones and piper one which can offer slight different in cam proflie too,

but 708 are more wildly used on what i see on here and other sites,

i am running newman PH3 cams and they a good cams if you just want to cam the engine, by like he said anything wilder than PH3 or 708 have to start thinking about Throttle bodies and pocket piston ect.

Yer newman didnt use there own branded ones they where supplied from a different company, then manc had the problems with them, so they went to same company that citreon get them from!

they do there own solid lifter though!

Andy

18th July 2009, 13:49

also think catcam do a 715 or something which can go into the Tu engien without thorttle bodies and pocket piston!

but some correct me i am wrong there, dnt think many poeple us that camshaft though.

Andy

18th July 2009, 15:28

Cheers for the input lads.

Yeah Im pretty clued up on the 708s and PH3s situation, was wondering more about the higher ones like the 803s Ive read snip[pets about, but I cant find anything decent. And the Newmans catalogue crashes my comp lol

18th July 2009, 15:31

I'm doing this from memory so correct me if I'm wrong:

wild cams like 803's require solid lifters - which was quite a bit of £££ to get set-up/shimmed.

whereas IMO a good setup (I wish I went for this setup originally tbh - might still do) is to get a catcam 734 hybrid setup (iirc. its a 734 inlet fitted as an exhaust cam too) which you can run with standard hydraulic followers, but would need uprated springs and hi comp pistons. Adding onto this setup I'd look to go for a set of ARP rod bolts, and then have the limit up around 7800, should be an awesome setup. iirc, with GOOD headwork/matched manifold this sort of setup was hitting 190bhp on the engine dyno.

18th July 2009, 16:43

Spot on mate, that sounds just the kind of setup Im after. Will have a look into all the parts and get on it

18th July 2009, 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben_Saxo

Spot on mate, that sounds just the kind of setup Im after. Will have a look into all the parts and get on it

Yeh, i think the quality of the headwork and mapping would make a big difference.

There's some good threads on ssc about this setup.

I beleive this was the setup hank_marvinson on 106rallyeforum had - got some good results.

18th July 2009, 16:48

His engines a beut, selling up already though I see.

Im buying another engine tommorow, a JP4, Ill look into getting the head on that sent off for work. A local rally prep company do it all for a reasonable price too. I know QEP are the shit but if these guys are just as good its not really worth paying £600 for a P+P

18th July 2009, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben_Saxo

His engines a beut, selling up already though I see.

Im buying another engine tommorow, a JP4, Ill look into getting the head on that sent off for work. A local rally prep company do it all for a reasonable price too. I know QEP are the shit but if these guys are just as good its not really worth paying £600 for a P+P

If I was to go for this setup (I dont think Im going to have the car long enough to warrant the £££) I'd look to get the head sent off to Dave - at Pumaracing (or Pumaspeed - something along those lines) - as he helped QEP design the head that got 190bhp+ out of these cams and he really knows what he's on about.

Sounds like you're going for an insane setup - any ideas on the spec?

18th July 2009, 17:27

Ah, fair play. Ill look into that aswell, give him a ring when the time comes. How long you thinking of keeping the car then?

And yeah I want to go quite far down the NA route, the cars gotta see me through 3 years of Uni, and the running/repair costs are good compared to bigger cars with similar or better performance so it makes sense. Plus for some reason I bloody love the thing

.

Spec, Im drawing it all up now really, hence why Im doing all this research now. I Ideally want 190 brake, and reasonable driveability, so the setup youve described is literally perfect mate.

Im picking up the JP4 on monday all going well and yoinking the valves for my current lump, and hopefully a J4 too in the week. Will use the rods from the J4, get them shot peened, and get the crank from one of them lightened and balanced, fit forged pistons. Then get the head sent off, fit it all up with the appropriate cams and internals, then get the TBs on. Time it all up, make sure its mechanically sound and then fit it and get down to get the Predator ECU wired in.

Will obviously be over the next year or so, already in a fair bit of debt I need to clear first. Gonna be getting a decent amount comign in though so should be able to get it all sorted quickly.

Great thing about doing it this way though is theres no rush, I can rebuild my current lump now with decent parts, already got a steel HG and the kit with all the head internal seals, cambelt, tensioner and idler, mani gaskets and the lightened alternator pulleys and belt so I dont have rely on the dodgy tensioner again. Should *touch wood* be a decent reliable engine for the next year or so to get me where I need to go aswell as being quick enough for now. Then I can properly take my time on the high spec lump so when it goes in I know it inside out and I know whats actually in there rather than having to trust others.

18th July 2009, 17:39

On the subject of cams, I've always wanted to know how much of a difference Newmans PH1 cams would make to a J4 engine over standard cams!? The power delivery of them looks a lot wider than PH3's where the majority of the power is near the top.

18th July 2009, 17:41

Dave, 'DaveVTS' on here had PH1s in his J4, was really very rapid.

18th July 2009, 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben_Saxo

Ah, fair play. Ill look into that aswell, give him a ring when the time comes. How long you thinking of keeping the car then?

And yeah I want to go quite far down the NA route, the cars gotta see me through 3 years of Uni, and the running/repair costs are good compared to bigger cars with similar or better performance so it makes sense. Plus for some reason I bloody love the thing

.

Spec, Im drawing it all up now really, hence why Im doing all this research now. I Ideally want 190 brake, and reasonable driveability, so the setup youve described is literally perfect mate.

Im picking up the JP4 on monday all going well and yoinking the valves for my current lump, and hopefully a J4 too in the week. Will use the rods from the J4, get them shot peened, and get the crank from one of them lightened and balanced, fit forged pistons. Then get the head sent off, fit it all up with the appropriate cams and internals, then get the TBs on. Time it all up, make sure its mechanically sound and then fit it and get down to get the Predator ECU wired in.

Will obviously be over the next year or so, already in a fair bit of debt I need to clear first. Gonna be getting a decent amount comign in though so should be able to get it all sorted quickly.

Great thing about doing it this way though is theres no rush, I can rebuild my current lump now with decent parts, already got a steel HG and the kit with all the head internal seals, cambelt, tensioner and idler, mani gaskets and the lightened alternator pulleys and belt so I dont have rely on the dodgy tensioner again. Should *touch wood* be a decent reliable engine for the next year or so to get me where I need to go aswell as being quick enough for now. Then I can properly take my time on the high spec lump so when it goes in I know it inside out and I know whats actually in there rather than having to trust others.

I know what you mean - they just seem to grow on you and you end up spending £££ on it just for the love!

Yeh, I'm not sure about the shot peaned rods - depends on how high your looking to rev i suppose. Maybe go with some arp rod bolts, standard rods and hi comp pistons - tie that in with a lightened flywheel and pulleys with maybe a nice s1 box should be plenty quick !!

Then cut the scuttle, some nice long bodies - headwork, 734's hybrid cams, should be awesome !!!

You'll have to get an engine build progress thread up so we can keep an eye on it

Sounds a great project!!

18th July 2009, 17:58

Yeah deffo mate. Looking forward to it now. I wonder what Ill do with the old engine at the end too lol. Id love to put it in an AX and use it as a day to day haha. But im getting ahead of myself a tad.

Yeah deffo, S1 box would probably be a tad mental with that spec, but would be rude not to whack it on, if it ever turns up.

When you thinking of getting rid of yours then?

18th July 2009, 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben_Saxo

Yeah deffo mate. Looking forward to it now. I wonder what Ill do with the old engine at the end too lol. Id love to put it in an AX and use it as a day to day haha. But im getting ahead of myself a tad.

Yeah deffo, S1 box would probably be a tad mental with that spec, but would be rude not to whack it on, if it ever turns up.

When you thinking of getting rid of yours then?

Well potantially next summer - is all going to depend on my circumstances. As then i'll finish Uni and then start working.

This car is going to be hardcore as a commuter - have done it for a year already, and is noisy and harsh. That's with an interior!!!! So with it stripped out it'll be strictly a weekend thing.

If I've got the money for another car as a commuter, and the space ot keep this I definately will do. But if I havn't it'll have to go unfortunately, will probably be broken up as worth more in parts.

18th July 2009, 18:03

I'd look to sell the other engine on to maybe fund some dyno time with the new engine? Or just hold onto it - could make a nice coffee table?!?

18th July 2009, 18:09

why are all the people in this forum only between PH3 and 708? is like a sickness , mate you can run PH4 on standar inlet manifold , followers and pistons...

18th July 2009, 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by n123

why are all the people in this forum only between PH3 and 708? is like a sickness , mate you can run PH4 on standar inlet manifold , followers and pistons...

You sure ?! Ph4 are 280 degree cams - I'm fairly sure you can't time these up correctly using standard pistons . . . . . am always willing to be proved wrong as i am by no means an expert! And also, on a standard inlet!?

These would be producing power still at around 7500rpm - 8000rpm so would be a brave man to rev. to that on standard springs, followers, pistons and a standard inlet.

You might JUST be able to get the engine to rotate with these (As the cams are a large duration) but even if it would run on the timing setup for this it'd run like a bag of shite.

18th July 2009, 18:23

y0u c0uld run ph4s 0n stardard inlet but everything else w0uld need changing. lifters ideally sh0uld be changed aswell..

18th July 2009, 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

Well potantially next summer - is all going to depend on my circumstances. As then i'll finish Uni and then start working.

This car is going to be hardcore as a commuter - have done it for a year already, and is noisy and harsh. That's with an interior!!!! So with it stripped out it'll be strictly a weekend thing.

If I've got the money for another car as a commuter, and the space ot keep this I definately will do. But if I havn't it'll have to go unfortunately, will probably be broken up as worth more in parts.

I'd look to sell the other engine on to maybe fund some dyno time with the new engine? Or just hold onto it - could make a nice coffee table?!?

Seems a shame to break it mate, hope you do end up keeping it shes a beast. Know what you mean about the commuting thing too, plus it would look bad turning up in a suit/shirt and tie in a stripped out spaxo

. Im having the same concerns for my placement next year lol

And true haha. Wont be worth feck all by then tbh will end up putting it somewhere in something

Quote:

Originally Posted by n123

why are all the people in this forum only between PH3 and 708? is like a sickness , mate you can run PH4 on standard inlet manifold , followers and pistons...

It is the generally used route of tuning mate, but thats because its tried and tested and it gives good results. Not sure you can run anything lairier than a PH3/708 on thos components either tbh. Depends of which head/bottom end your using troo, and HG etc to some extent.

I dont intend to use PH3/708s though now

18th July 2009, 18:29

lol, placement year is great as it gives you some extra ££££ ontop of the student loan to mod the car!!! I've basically ploughed most of my money onto the car - obviously lived well during the year, but spent the excess!! And are exempt from council tax

18th July 2009, 18:31

Quality. Being a student rocks. Wasnt to great this year due to epic student accomodation charges. But now Im gonna be raking it £1500 profit every three months, not including any money I get from fixing cars, breaking cars or general wheeling and dealing lol. Good times

18th July 2009, 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben_Saxo

Quality. Being a student rocks. Wasnt to great this year due to epic student accomodation charges. But now Im gonna be raking it £1500 profit every three months, not including any money I get from fixing cars, breaking cars or general wheeling and dealing lol. Good times

Happy days!! £1500 every 3 months will be enough to get this engine built !!

Working long hours, and having to pay bills isn't great though during the placement year

the Saxo always puts a smile on my face when you want to grab it by the scruff of the neck and rag it home!

18th July 2009, 18:50

And pay off my epic debt haha. Itll be funding a lot of more normal student pastimes this year too though.

Yeah I imagine that would suck. Used to paying bills already thouygh already sorted a slat etc. And yeah mine does the same, such a laugh

18th July 2009, 20:50

please take a look on this....
http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=184662

18th July 2009, 21:25

i wouldnt want to use PH4 with standard piston!

as you wouldnt be able to get the full out of them!! also these are more peaky so would have to rev harder which would kill the engine if you leave it standard inside!

should stick with the more proven cams like 708 or ph3 with standard inlet and internals!

but i would like to see if some will try get PH4 in on standard piston see if it can be done, because i think you would have to back of on the timing to get to work without hitting standard pistons!!

andy

18th July 2009, 21:30

so more about the ph4's then.. would you be able to run these with forged pistons + headwork (p+p) and std injection? (with potential to run on itb's in future)

18th July 2009, 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by n123

please take a look on this....
http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=184662

IMO you can't compare the ph4 with the catcam 715 cams.

The 715's are 281 degree cams with 8.5mm lift
The PH4's are 280 degree cams with 10.9mm lift

The 708's are 256 degree cams with 10mm lift
The PH3's are 264degree with 10.15mm lift (IMO as wild as you can go on standard pistons before you risk running the valves very close to the pistons and risking them clashing at high rpms - when timed up correctly)

I've never tried the Ph4's with standard pistons, but i would confident in saying that they wouldn't fit - no matter what David Newman says. You have a camshaft that has 0.75mm more lift and is 16 degrees wilder . . . . .

If people want to buy some PH4's to run with standard pistons they I'd be interested in hearing how they've done it without an oversized hg (maybe +1mm) and timed them to just get the engine to rotate.

If you were to get cut-outs machined into your standard pistons then you might be able to swing the cams enough to get them to run - or even be worthwhile fitting them over ph3's for more bhp.

I'm just trying to get the information on the forum for people to be able to make the judgements about them.

18th July 2009, 22:26

I couldn't be arsed to read the whole thread as i'm a lazy bastard.

The reason solid lifters cost so much to do is because the head needs to be machined to accomodate them. And you have to buy the lifter kit on top also, then get them fitted and shimmed!

The reason for solid lifters is to allow more than a certain amount of lift and duration to be used as well as the limiting factor of engine speed, hydraulic lifters are limited to 8k max really which is fine up to a certain level.

Solid lifters need periodic adjustment to keep the clearances tidy and avoid damage/wear to the valvetrain.

734s are good cams, remember that you are going to be limited by the use of hydraulic lifters in future if you ever intend to go for the 200bhp+ club.

Over a certain amount of valve overlap(long duration cams) there are several variables. High compression pistons regain some of the lost low down and midrange power and increase efficiency, they also give better valve clearance. You can machine standard pistons for more valve clearance but at the end of the day you may as well just change the pistons. Anything over 1.5mm lift @ TDC on a J4 is dangerous, on a JP4 it's even less.

18th July 2009, 22:28

Slightly off topic, but what are the benefits of boring out the piston chambers and using larger pistons? How does this effect the powerband?

18th July 2009, 22:29

Surely more torque, but minimal?

18th July 2009, 22:30

Boring would simply yeald more power and torque, throughout the rev range. You can't go very far though on these engines. Increasing the stroke is more popular but also has it's downfalls, the higher piston speeds mean that you can't physically rev it as high, it does mean that you again improve power and torque, more so lower in the rev range. Increasing the stroke puts a lot more stress on the crankshaft and conrods.

The oversize pistons sold are simply to make up the sizes if reboring.

You would rebore if there were major scratches in the block, as the liners are fixed and not removeable. A healthy engine would need just a rehone and off you go with standard size pistons.

18th July 2009, 22:52

Spot on, cheers squire much appreciated

19th July 2009, 01:36

mates , in portugal a lot of people uses PH4 on standar inlet and pistons! , it can be done and the cars runs very very well , and has a lot of power in high revs which is interesting for aceleration and top speed , and with standar valve clearance you can run them,maybe you wont have much more power that with 708 or PH3 but if you plan to put more things on the engine you know that you arent going to have to change the cams because are wild ones.192 BHP got an vts in portugal without Trothlle bodies.

19th July 2009, 01:40

That sounds interesting mate, are these on J4 engines?

And I mean no dis-respect, but its impossible that someone got 192bhp with the single throttle body

19th July 2009, 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by n123

mates , in portugal a lot of people uses PH4 on standar inlet and pistons! , it can be done and the cars runs very very well , and has a lot of power in high revs which is interesting for aceleration and top speed , and with standar valve clearance you can run them,maybe you wont have much more power that with 708 or PH3 but if you plan to put more things on the engine you know that you arent going to have to change the cams because are wild ones.192 BHP got an vts in portugal without Trothlle bodies.

The pistons must have machined cut outs for them to run anywhere near okay - the specs of the cams speak for themselves.

The portugeuse have always made some crazy cars - there's a few mental turo saxo's over there!!!

19th July 2009, 11:39

You could make 192bhp on a single throttle body setup, potentially on the standard inlet. It would be useless at lower revs and lower throttle openings though. With a custom inlet system designed properly a single TB is quite effective but still nowhere ear as good as ITBs.

The problems associated with single throttle body inlets are a result of cam overlaps which cause excessive inlet pulses which on a single throttle body can affect each other, meaning that one cylinder will be pulsing when the others aren't and it upsets the airflow and harmonics inside the plenum, this doesn't really happen much at full throttle as there is hardly any restriction to incoming air, at 10% throttle though the throttle plate is creating a large vacuum in the plenum and whichever cylinder has the biggest inlet pulse will get the most air, potentially reducing the amount that another one gets in the sequence and it will unbalance the quantities of air getting into each cylinder, causing rough running at low revs and low throttle openings.

By contrast individual throttle bodies have in effect a seperate plenum for each cylinder, the air between the throttle butterfly and the valve head. This means that each cylinders pulses are kept seperate and each cylinder gets an equal amount of air(they already got equal amounts of fuel) and the valve to throttle length and valve to inlet(end of trumpet) lengths can be tuned to optimise harmonic tuning at certain rev ranges.

That probably doesn't make much sense but it does in my head.

A single TB won't be far behind multiples at high revs and full throttle, it's everywhere else that ITBs are essential, because virtually anything over 708s won't run as smoothly, cleanly and efficiently on a single TB as multiples. Even sandy has kind of shown that on standard cams a set of TBs makes a big difference.

19th July 2009, 13:19

Where do folks buy there lifters & springs from?.

19th July 2009, 13:29

catcams is the one that comes to mind

20th July 2009, 00:35

obiusly is better to have TB but is not imprescindible as pistons , wild cams and mecanic followers.

20th July 2009, 07:10

well you would need head work i think to get soild lifters in!

also i dnt think you can timing PH4 up correct with standard piston, unless they are pocket piston maybe wrong but i really dont think you can!

andy