Important! : can't put the cambelt without piston & vavle touchin

25th July 2009, 21:58

Mates , i don't know why!!!!! the head is only 0,6 mm skimmed , and the cams are a pair of BP285 , and i cant put the cambel in standar marks because the engine doesnt turn by hand , i put the cambelt like 10 times of diferent way and i cant! the head gasket is oem 1,5 mm what could be happening????i know i have a little valve clearance but it should be enough to make it turn by hand no?
thank you very much guys.

25th July 2009, 22:21

sounds like youve got the timing out man

iirc you need to set it all to standard then spin the crank 110 degrees (or something like that)

25th July 2009, 22:25

why i have to spin the crank? i don't understend i have put an allen key onto the hole of the flywheel

25th July 2009, 22:32

you sure you still havent got cams or flywheel locked when trying to spin? sounds stupid but its easily do able when not paying attention? or car in gear etc et?

25th July 2009, 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by n123

why i have to spin the crank? i don't understend i have put an allen key onto the hole of the flywheel

i dunno really its something i read somewere whilst looking for a mate
he seemed to think it was correct but it confused me aswell

25th July 2009, 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

you sure you still havent got cams or flywheel locked when trying to spin? sounds stupid but its easily do able when not paying attention? or car in gear etc et?

once happend that to me , but i take it out and it didnt spin , it gets blocked and i dont know why , i move the car by the wheel with the 5 gear in, not by the cranckshaft bolt.

26th July 2009, 00:03

Have you checked the cams actually move?

didnt mix the ladders up with a different set off another engine?

26th July 2009, 07:53

Inlet and exhaust wrong way round? Can't see why, other than wilder cams than BP285's?

26th July 2009, 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

Inlet and exhaust wrong way round? Can't see why, other than wilder cams than BP285's?

I was thinking that! Either way if everything been put together you will have no issues with the 285s mate, so somethings wrong there!

26th July 2009, 11:16

sure the timing isnt 180 out?

26th July 2009, 11:44

Well if you've put the cams in 180 degrees out will have to rotate the bottom end so pistons are all halfway up the bore, then rotate cams 180degrees, put cambelt on, then rotate engine so you can lock the bottom end, take cambelt back off, lock the cams, cambelt on and then adjeust according to the cams.

Or check the ends of the cams to see. My bp285's have a yellw band on the exhaust cam

26th July 2009, 13:53

the cams are original BP285 with the yellow band , the inlet cam is in the inlet place , and the exhaust cam are in the exhaust place i have checked that and its fine , i'm gonna check what rauchz is saying , but , yesterday when i was trying to do that , the inlet cam could turn over , but the exaust cam couldt , and i dont know why

thank you very much guys.

26th July 2009, 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by GazVTRSaxo

Have you checked the cams actually move?

didnt mix the ladders up with a different set off another engine?

the laddes were from my other engine , what could be the problem?

26th July 2009, 14:45

take some lift off the cams then it should turn, simple.

26th July 2009, 15:12

yer but this cams should still fit on standard timing, you sure the head has not be skimmed before??

.6mm is a big skim did you have H/G problems before?

as you might have to use the thicker repair gasket!

26th July 2009, 16:56

Sure you havent bent a valve with wrong timing (since putting it back together) and now the exhaust cam wont turn? Try taking the belt off, get the pistons all away from TDC and turn the cams over.

26th July 2009, 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by sax-oli

Sure you havent bent a valve with wrong timing (since putting it back together) and now the exhaust cam wont turn? Try taking the belt off, get the pistons all away from TDC and turn the cams over.

bent a valve? what you mean? to piss of it with the piston? i dont know i only used the strengt of the hand...i dont think so... maybe i left something onto the engine?

26th July 2009, 19:43

the head wasnt skimmed by me , i receive it , send it to the machiner and say to him to take 0,6 mm of the standar measurement , the head has already 0,6 left of standar measurement so he take a look ,say to me that the head was good and i try tu put it yesterday...

26th July 2009, 21:40

maybe just sounds like the head has had too much off it, and the headgasket isn't thick enough.

You can check if it's close by taking off the cambelt, rotate the bottom end a little and see the yo ucan rotate either camshaft, will tell you how close you are?

No chance of fitting some PH4's then

(I'm only joking !!)

26th July 2009, 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

maybe just sounds like the head has had too much off it, and the headgasket isn't thick enough.

You can check if it's close by taking off the cambelt, rotate the bottom end a little and see the yo ucan rotate either camshaft, will tell you how close you are?

No chance of fitting some PH4's then

(I'm only joking !!)

i went to the machinist and say to him , man make my head to meassure 134.7mm , he took a digital tool to measure the height of the head and it got , 134,65 mm so its only 0.05 mm of diference...
i dont understend how you say to know how much valve clearance is , this evening i went to the cam put the cilinders all in near position(middle) and the exaust cam did turn over without any problem.

26th July 2009, 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

maybe just sounds like the head has had too much off it, and the headgasket isn't thick enough.

You can check if it's close by taking off the cambelt, rotate the bottom end a little and see the yo ucan rotate either camshaft, will tell you how close you are?

No chance of fitting some PH4's then

(I'm only joking !!)

hahah when i was trying to put the BP285 i though oh my god , if this cams make me to have problemes i cant imagine a pair of PH4.

26th July 2009, 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by n123

i went to the machinist and say to him , man make my head to meassure 134.7mm , he took a digital tool to measure the height of the head and it got , 134,65 mm so its only 0.05 mm of diference...
i dont understend how you say to know how much valve clearance is , this evening i went to the cam put the cilinders all in near position(middle) and the exaust cam did turn over without any problem.

I'd put the bottom at TDC, remove the cambelt, and then see if you can rock either camshaft (ie rotate it)

From this you can see if its the inlet cam, exhaust cam or both. It might be that you've been sent an exhaust cam with too much lift? Not a bp285?

26th July 2009, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

I'd put the bottom at TDC, remove the cambelt, and then see if you can rock either camshaft (ie rotate it)

From this you can see if its the inlet cam, exhaust cam or both. It might be that you've been sent an exhaust cam with too much lift? Not a bp285?

wait a minute mate , so the cams have to be turneable at TDC? i think they cant rotate at TDC , the exaust cam is BP285 also , they have the mark onto the part of the cam where the pulley goes on.

27th July 2009, 13:19

i mean 0.6mm is 23 thou which is alot!1

i only have a 6 thou skim when i have my head skimmed!1

i would get the 1.7mm headgasket and then try again!

andy

27th July 2009, 15:26

mate i thing you are confussing your self , 0.6 mm is not a lot , it lets about 2,4 mm of valve clearance .

27th July 2009, 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by n123

wait a minute mate , so the cams have to be turneable at TDC? i think they cant rotate at TDC , the exaust cam is BP285 also , they have the mark onto the part of the cam where the pulley goes on.

Surely you want them turnable a little at TDC - I was just thining it might give you an idea of how far off you are from the engine being able to rotate properly. When I fitted my bp285's, I could swing both cam shafts by a little way.

It has been known for the cams to be labelled up wrong, I have read it on these forums.

Tbh it sounds like even with a thicker headgasket the valves are going to be close, might get some valve clash at high revs.

27th July 2009, 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

Surely you want them turnable a little at TDC - I was just thining it might give you an idea of how far off you are from the engine being able to rotate properly. When I fitted my bp285's, I could swing both cam shafts by a little way.

It has been known for the cams to be labelled up wrong, I have read it on these forums.

Tbh it sounds like even with a thicker headgasket the valves are going to be close, might get some valve clash at high revs.

the cams can rotate at TDC but they cant rotate 360 degrees , in a moment they get stuck and you have to rotate upside down and put them in the back place.the cams were buyed to the user BULLIT and i already have them in my engine a month ago , before the cambelt went and i piss of 14 valves.

27th July 2009, 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by n123

the cams can rotate at TDC but they cant rotate 360 degrees , in a moment they get stuck and you have to rotate upside down and put them in the back place.the cams were buyed to the user BULLIT and i already have them in my engine a month ago , before the cambelt went and i piss of 14 valves.

You wouldn't be able to rotate them 360 degrees !!!

So you can rule the cams out - sounds like you've had too much off the head/too thin a headgasket <- that's your problem.

27th July 2009, 21:24

no .6mm is alot for a head! as when i had my head skimmed i only took off 6 thou which is not alot .6mm is about 23 thou which is alot!!

i am tell you engineer it is alot when when skimming an head should work in thou not mm! and should really only about max 8 thou when skimming!

you really need a bigger H/G to stop this, as if you try fit them atm you will have to take lift off which will just go agianst what you are doing with uprated cams!

Andy

27th July 2009, 22:58

tomorrow i'm gonna try to mount up the cambelt with the standar cams , if i could do it , i'll buy a more thick head gasket.

28th July 2009, 12:54

if you took off 0.6 mm that is alot mate!

that is about 23 thou!

i mean when i had my head skimmed i only had 6 thou off which is about 0.15

i am telling you .6mm is alot also did you make sure that the head had not been skimmed up before hand aswell?

i think you will have to buy a thicker H/G the 1.7mm might be ok for you!

andy

28th July 2009, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndySAXOK

if you took off 0.6 mm that is alot mate!

that is about 23 thou!

i mean when i had my head skimmed i only had 6 thou off which is about 0.15

i am telling you .6mm is alot also did you make sure that the head had not been skimmed up before hand aswell?

i think you will have to buy a thicker H/G the 1.7mm might be ok for you!

andy

mate , i didnt skimm the head! i send it to the machinist , he took measures and the head did measure 0.6 mm less than a standar one so i didnt skimm anything , he only took a look and say to me that the head was ok.

28th July 2009, 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

You wouldn't be able to rotate them 360 degrees !!!

So you can rule the cams out - sounds like you've had too much off the head/too thin a headgasket <- that's your problem.

mate i can understend , for example that when i rev the car until 7000 or 7800 it gets tapping sound of the valves touchin the piston slighty , but i cant understend why if i have 1 mm of clearance i can turn the engine by hand...

28th July 2009, 18:37

mates i dont know what the fuck could be , today i get the head out another time , cheked if i left somenthing on the block or some kind of bad position of the head gasket , but that isnt the problem , so i put the head again and try to put the cambelt on with the standar cams , the surprise was that the inlet cam couldn't be turned 360 by hand in any piston position

what the fuck could be mates? , and the deegres that can be turned its so hard and i have to do like twice of the strenght that i do to move exhaust cam, have you got any idea? thank you very much

28th July 2009, 19:08

maybe a follower/valve problem?

What condition is the head in? Bent a valve?

28th July 2009, 20:00

no the head hasnt got any valve pissed of or something like that...follower could be

28th July 2009, 21:35

If you say you get tapping noises at over 7krpm then surely bent valves are a possibility?

28th July 2009, 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantom

If you say you get tapping noises at over 7krpm then surely bent valves are a possibility?

mate please read, i couldnt even put the cambelt in , i cant start the car !

29th July 2009, 13:04

just go buy a 1.7mm H/G and try that!!

i think you need to get your valve to piston clearance wilder!! as it all too close at the moment!

andy

29th July 2009, 13:04

also are you trying to turn the engine over by hand with on cambelt on?

as if you are then you are just moving the camshafts not the pistons so it will hit!

andy

29th July 2009, 13:06

pin both camshafts up and lock off the bottom end then put the cambelt on!

tension the cambelt up then try turn the engine over by using a spanner on the bottom crank bolt see it it turns then!

andy

29th July 2009, 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by n123

mate i thing you are confussing your self , 0.6 mm is not a lot , it lets about 2,4 mm of valve clearance .

i doubt it, 708s only have 1.5mm clearance on a standard head.

29th July 2009, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by n123

mate i can understend , for example that when i rev the car until 7000 or 7800 it gets tapping sound of the valves touchin the piston slighty , but i cant understend why if i have 1 mm of clearance i can turn the engine by hand...

becasue you'll have valve float at high rpm

29th July 2009, 13:24

yer newman is the same only 1.5mm!

i and 80% sure going on what he saying is he needs a thicker H/G, as the head has been skimmed down too much now.

Andy

29th July 2009, 13:28

ahahahahh mates you are not going to beleive this , take atention because the inlet cam doesnt move....after proving the position of the cambelt like 10 times , changin all the follwoers for others spare that i have here , changin the cams four times.... the cambel got stucked because....one of the three bolts of the pulley was more long than the other two and got stucked with a side of the head ...i dont know what to do if start to cry or start to laugh...fuckin saxos haha

29th July 2009, 13:30

ooo dear should pay more attention more went re biulding! lol

well so it all turns now?

andy

29th July 2009, 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndySAXOK

ooo dear should pay more attention more went re biulding! lol

well so it all turns now?

andy

i'm going to prove if the cambelt turns well after launch , but mates i think its gonna move because it always got stucked in the same place which was when the inlet vavles of the second cilinder start to open , i will keep you informated heheh.

29th July 2009, 18:48

School boy error

30th July 2009, 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

School boy error

is what i'am.

31st July 2009, 13:05

so is it all working now!

just want to know out of interst now,

Andy

31st July 2009, 13:05

atleast you should learn from your mistake!

Andy

31st July 2009, 19:48

Lol.... How long did it take to realise that

Atleast your sorted anyhows.

Think you need a thread title change.

31st July 2009, 23:01

the car started today , with only a petrol leak of the FPR valve and an air leak because it havent got 2 bolts of the inlet manifold but all is ok.it sounds amazing.