Important! : Help Identifying Gearbox. People who know their Ratios please look in!

3rd August 2009, 23:04

I have a gearbox here and the only code i can find on it is 4ES2. This is on the diff and there is no ID plate on the box that i can see.

Can anyone shed any light?

Cheers

4th August 2009, 18:21

Ok so ive got the box apart and worked out the ratios as follows-

1st - 3.41:1
2nd - 1.95:1
3rd - 1.36:1
4th - 1.05:1
5th - 0.85:1

Final Drive - 3.58:1

Ive searched and cant find anything on here, and the ratios thread on ssc isnt working for me

Can anyone confirm what box this is or link me up to a page with ratio lists please!

4th August 2009, 18:33

Ratios match more to a VTS box than any other, but the final drive dosent match any box but its closer to the VTS box.

Id say VTS box tbh

4th August 2009, 18:43

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=125615

http://www.saxosportsclub.com/Forums...ertopic=1.html

http://www.106owners.co.uk/forums/sh...ad.php?t=30004

4th August 2009, 18:49

Someone on rallye register may be able to help there's a thread on there with lots of info aswel. Worth pming mankee on there he builds ma boxes.

4th August 2009, 18:50

Thanks mate, must be my dodgy maths lol

Thats what i wanted to hear anyways, was hoping its a VTS box

4th August 2009, 19:00

All the ratios on gears 1-5 match perfectly with a VTS box but the final drive is way out.

I made it 3.58:1 whereas the guide says 3.938:1 :/

I counted 17 x 61 teeth, where am i going wrong? lol

4th August 2009, 19:02

vtr box ?

4th August 2009, 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

vtr box ?

ratios are different.

4th August 2009, 19:16

all the sports boxes have the same gear ratio's:

vts/s1/s2/xsi

It's the final drives that make them 'appear' to have different ratios.

4th August 2009, 19:16

EDIT: my bad - vtr box appears to be different ratios to the other sports boxes - how random!

4th August 2009, 19:20

VTR has different ratios.

1st - 3.471
2nd - 1.81
3rd - 1.276
4th - 1.026
5th - 0.767

VTS box, s1,s2 rallye XSI 1.4 and 1.6 boxes:

1st - 3.41
2nd - 1.95
3rd - 1.35
4th - 1.05
5th - 0.85

4th August 2009, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

EDIT: my bad - vtr box appears to be different ratios to the other sports boxes - how random!

Probs classed as a sports box with a different cluster?

4th August 2009, 19:22

Dont some 205's use MA boxes? Possibly final drive off one of them?

Is the box reconditioned or a factory box?

4th August 2009, 20:28

You lot are useless lol

3.58FD is the long version of the diesel gearbox.

4th August 2009, 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexR

You lot are useless lol

3.58FD is the long version of the diesel gearbox.

I aint even gonna suggest the ratios are different with you lmao.

4th August 2009, 20:58

Code:

Ref numbers  	1st  	Ratio	2nd  	Ratio	3rd  	Ratio	4th 	Ratio	5th	Ratio	Reverse  	Final drive  	Speedometer drive ratio  	

20 CD 60 (**)  	12x41  	3.42	20x39  	1.95	28x38  	1.36	37x39  	1.05	41x35  	0.85	12x30x43  	17x61  	3.59	19x17  	Since RPO 08688
20 CN 05 (**)  	12x41  	3.42	20x39  	1.95	30x41  	1.37	37x39  	1.05	41x35  	0.85	12x30x43  	17x61  	3.59	19x17  	Since RPO 08688
														
(**) 185 x 55 R 14 tyre.

Sounds like a VTR gearbox, it has a 17x61 final drive ratio.

4th August 2009, 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexR

You lot are useless lol

3.58FD is the long version of the diesel gearbox.

So ive got a diesel gearbox

4th August 2009, 21:05

Nope.

The diesel does have the same final drive ratio but different ratios for other gears:

Code:

Ref numbers  	1st  	Ratio	2nd  	Ratio	3rd  	Ratio	4th 	Ratio	5th	Ratio	Reverse  	Final drive  	Speedometer drive ratio  	
20 CC 57(1)  	11x40  	3.64	20x39  	1.95	29x37  	1.28	40x39  	0.98	43x33  	0.77	12x30  	        17x61  	3.59	19x17

4th August 2009, 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Code:

Ref numbers  	1st  	Ratio	2nd  	Ratio	3rd  	Ratio	4th 	Ratio	5th	Ratio	Reverse  	Final drive  	Speedometer drive ratio  	

20 CD 60 (**)  	12x41  	3.42	20x39  	1.95	28x38  	1.36	37x39  	1.05	41x35  	0.85	12x30x43  	17x61  	3.59	19x17  	Since RPO 08688
20 CN 05 (**)  	12x41  	3.42	20x39  	1.95	30x41  	1.37	37x39  	1.05	41x35  	0.85	12x30x43  	17x61  	3.59	19x17  	Since RPO 08688
														
(**) 185 x 55 R 14 tyre.

Sounds like a VTR gearbox, it has a 17x61 final drive ratio.

so also deisal and 1.1 boxes have 17x61 final drive.

Theres loads of different sources saying different things, which are we meant to belive lol

4th August 2009, 21:08

1st - 3.41:1
2nd - 1.95:1
3rd - 1.36:1
4th - 1.05:1
5th - 0.85:1

The VTR matches the original post but the diesel gearbox ratios are different for gears 3-5. First gear doesn't match either - definitely not the diesel.

4th August 2009, 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Nope.

The diesel does have the same final drive ration but different ratios for other gears:

Code:

Ref numbers  	1st  	Ratio	2nd  	Ratio	3rd  	Ratio	4th 	Ratio	5th	Ratio	Reverse  	Final drive  	Speedometer drive ratio  	
20 CC 57(1)  	11x40  	3.64	20x39  	1.95	29x37  	1.28	40x39  	0.98	43x33  	0.77	12x30  	        17x61  	3.59	19x17

According to the links posted above the vtr box uses different ratios on gears 2-5 than the ratios i have..

4th August 2009, 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by db_sax

VTR has different ratios.

1st - 3.471
2nd - 1.81
3rd - 1.276
4th - 1.026
5th - 0.767

VTS box, s1,s2 rallye XSI 1.4 and 1.6 boxes:

1st - 3.41
2nd - 1.95
3rd - 1.35
4th - 1.05
5th - 0.85

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

1st - 3.41:1
2nd - 1.95:1
3rd - 1.36:1
4th - 1.05:1
5th - 0.85:1

The VTR matches the original post but the diesel gearbox ratios are different for gears 3-5. First gear doesn't match either - definitely not the diesel.

The ratios you got for the vtr box make better sense as then it would make Rauchz post correct with it being a sports gearbox.

Where you getting the specs from?

Theres loads of different ones all over the place.

4th August 2009, 21:12

A Premium guide here: http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=246790

From Citroen specs.

4th August 2009, 21:16

Looks like my suggestion was a good punt based on the FD - I would be suprised if someone has taken a box apart and put vtr ratios on it with a diesel FD - whereas a standard vtr box specs would make more sense!

4th August 2009, 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

A Premium guide here: http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=246790

From Citroen specs.

Cant find them codes on any of the lists elsewhere either.

The one youve put up in that premium guide is probs right, so therefore the sticky thats got all the ratios on here and 106 owners that poeple have been going by for the past year has been false. But then where have they got them ratios from?

Somethings dodgy lol

4th August 2009, 21:19

Are gearbox ratios listed in a Haynes manual?

So if BobC is correct it looks like ive bought another vtr box

4th August 2009, 21:22

Ah, Ok.

When I say VTR I don't mean not ALL VTRs, but later models. There is another gearbox fitted to early VTRs.

4th August 2009, 21:23

Yes there are some in Haynes.

4th August 2009, 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Ah, Ok.

When I say VTR I don't mean not ALL VTRs, but later models. There is another gearbox fitted to early VTRs.

bloody hell lol. The ratios or final drive differ much?

4th August 2009, 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Yes there are some in Haynes.

Il have a look later when i get home.

I cant see the premium guide so would you say its deffinately a vtr box? I find it odd that the other stickys seem a load of rubbish though

4th August 2009, 21:36

The early VTR one (20 CC 05) had a 17x64 3.76 final drive.

The ones I found from Citroen are here: http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=246790

4th August 2009, 21:50

There are far too many gearbox ratios.

Anyway, anything without the sport cluster has big rev drops so is no use on 16v, especially if it's tuned!

4th August 2009, 22:01

Yup, I'd say its definitely a VTR box, your teeth counts and calculated ratios are an exact match. Its either a 20 CD 60 or a 20 CN 05.

By the way, Haynes (page 7A-1) only lists the earliest VTR model ratios not these above. The Haynes manual would be significantly bigger if they had to 'keep up' with every change every year. A lot of the Haynes electrical diagrams work for early Saxo models but not later ones.

I really can't comment on the other lists, but there are lots of gearbox models and I have seen some lists with Pug 106s too.

4th August 2009, 22:05

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/saxo-vts-vtr-g...d=p3286.c0.m14

Claims to have come from a W reg VTS...£55

4th August 2009, 22:06

Damn, i bought if off a member on here who clamed it was a GTI box

Need rid of it now lol and to find another box.

Thanks for all your help

4th August 2009, 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/saxo-vts-vtr-g...d=p3286.c0.m14

Claims to have come from a W reg VTS...£55

Its fooking miles away

4th August 2009, 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/saxo-vts-vtr-g...d=p3286.c0.m14

Claims to have come from a W reg VTS...£55

lol, i literally clicked watch on that!

Think ive secured an S2 rallye box anyway.

4th August 2009, 22:15

VTS gearbox codes: 20 CD 46 or 20 CN 03 but they are not interchangeable (according to Citroen).

Almost NO ebay posts give gearbox codes, but if they are like yours and have no code, then it will be a lottery...

Good luck,

4th August 2009, 22:17

db_sax, its a great price. Hope its not a minger...

4th August 2009, 22:51

I have just looked in my haynes manual and the vts gearbox ratios they list match they ones i have on all gears except the final drive. The number of teeth differs on 3rd gear (haynes says 28/38 whereas i counted 30/41) but the ratio is the same.

According to this the final drive is from a diesel model, for which they list two final drive ratios- 3.765:1 and 3.588:1 (the latter 17/61, the same as mine)

Now im confused... lol

4th August 2009, 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizzy

I have just looked in my haynes manual and the vts gearbox ratios they list match they ones i have on all gears except the final drive. The number of teeth differs on 3rd gear (haynes says 28/38 whereas i counted 30/41) but the ratio is the same.

According to this the final drive is from a diesel model, for which they list two final drive ratios- 3.765:1 and 3.588:1 (the latter 17/61, the same as mine)

Now im confused... lol

17.61 is on some 1.1 boxes, deisal and the later VTR boxes from what Bob said.

Vtr box has the same gear cluster then which will match your ratios and the final drive is vtr aswell.

4th August 2009, 22:59

I get what your saying now. I was always under the impression that all vtr boxes used a different cluster to the vts box rather than a different final drive.

4th August 2009, 23:12

Sorry another quick question

Seen as the box i have already appears to have the sports cluster could i just change the final drive to somthing shorter and reap the benifits that way?

Bearing in mind i only have a vtr currently at a standard limit would it be wise to go much shorter than a vts/gti final drive?

Thanks!!

4th August 2009, 23:16

Some poeple say theres no point in going on a shorter final drive on an 8valve with standard rev limit. Up to you really.

But yeh, fit a final drive from and XSI, Rallye, VTS box and it will make the box whatever the final drive is.

4th August 2009, 23:22

Cheers mate, people say there is no point modding an 8v at all but that hasnt stopped me so far!

5th August 2009, 18:27

Got hold of a 4.06:1 final drive today to go into the gearbox.

I believe its from a s2 rallye/1.6 xsi (can someone confirm?)

Problem solved