rallye/xsi

8th September 2009, 21:00

hi, sorry if been asked before.

if i was to put the rallye/xsi head on my vtr wot else would i need to change, or would all the gear from the vtr head fit? eg. inlet, manifold, so on....

any info would b great!!

8th September 2009, 21:02

depends what year your engine is mate, if its pre 2001 everything will fit onto the head mate

if its after the inlet mani wont fit as the port spacing is different

how ever this is a great upgrade as the rallye/xsi heads run better valve springs and a 270deg cam std, which has better specs than most mild cams

so will see some good gains with this head on

but it will go straight on mate depending on year like i said

8th September 2009, 21:05

oh wait actually i just remembered, you will need rallye/xsi injectors, as these heads use different sized injectors and vtr ones dont fit, cause i have a rallye head fitted to my vtr and i have had to adapt my fuel rail to make vtr ones fit

also another thing you will idealy need to use ht leads, cause the vtr coilpack doesnt quite fit properly

all is minor detail though mate and dead easy to sort out if you know what your are doing, vaigly lol

8th September 2009, 21:06

how much would all this cost includinh fitting as i aint a clue how do anything lol
sorry for nicking you thread but it seems a good idea

8th September 2009, 21:08

cheers for that.its a 98 vtr but nt sure what year the head it but will find out. wot injects fit the head or how did you adapt them?

8th September 2009, 21:11

well first off you need to find one of these heads lol

there not as common as say a vtr head

but id say your looking at 70 or 80 for full head

then youd need a skim and new stem seals etc about 40quid

then you will need to get full service etc may aswell do cambelt etc, will need head bolts and gasket all this is about 250ish, depending on where you go and who you know lol the price could vary alot to what ive said for this tbh

erm then fitting i am unsure of what a garage charges, but it will be prety much what a garage would charge for cambelt change service and head gasket change really, id say about 200-300 for all that as its quite straight forward

but other things like the coilpack conversion to ht leads you will need to get someone else to do that, i dont think i garage would do it tbh

8th September 2009, 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by biggee1988

cheers for that.its a 98 vtr but nt sure what year the head it but will find out. wot injects fit the head or how did you adapt them?

do you mean 98bhp vtr? or 1998 mk1 vtr?

if its mk1 the everything will fit head fine, if its 98bhp the inlet wont fit, so you will just need to source a mk1 inlet which will be easy and cheap

erm basically, the rallye/xsi injectors are longer than vtr ones, so cause vtr ones are shorter they wont reach the head

so what i did was cut the tabs on the fuel rail, you know where it bolts to the head? this allowed injectors to go into head, but its not the best fitment, i wouldnt recomend it, i have only done this temporarily untill i get the pred and then ill fit my injectors, cause i have bigger cc ones which will over fuel on std map, but they are same shape as rallye ones

erm so if doing this id say def get the proper fitment injectors

also look at changing coil pack to run ht leads

8th September 2009, 21:19

sorry ment 1988 vtr. id do all the fitting myself. head gasket n cambelt are not to tricky on a vtr really. just unsure bout all the niggley bits really but top info mate

thanks very much

8th September 2009, 21:27

no problem, if you can do all that then you are fine mate

only pain in the arse thing is doing the conversion to run ht leads, cause you need to get the plug from a blacktop vtr or any blacktop with ht leads basically, then rewire that on your loom get yourself the right coil pack and then some leads and your away lol
the rewiring is a right pain, i did mine trial and error, cause if you get the wires wrong way round the car wont start lol, so i used bullet connectors then swapped wires round until it worked lol only prob is it will bring fault codes up that will need deleting by diagnostics

8th September 2009, 22:08

Black top VTR head is the same head as the XSI and so on

8th September 2009, 22:35

from what ive read the blacktop isnt exactly the same

the cam is different, the xsi/rallye head uses a big bearing cam, and vtr only uses small bearing, and the xsi/rallye heads use stiffer valve springs, to what the blacktop does

other than that they are pretty similar, both non roller, and external wise are same

8th September 2009, 23:26

There was a thread on this already. TODAY...

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=256169

8th September 2009, 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtr_chris90

from what ive read the blacktop isnt exactly the same

the cam is different, the xsi/rallye head uses a big bearing cam, and vtr only uses small bearing, and the xsi/rallye heads use stiffer valve springs, to what the blacktop does

other than that they are pretty similar, both non roller, and external wise are same

LOL Where did you hear that? Some one it yanking your crank

9th September 2009, 22:45

I can't comment on the valve springs, but its reasonable to suggest the vtr head has weaker springs due to the standard allocated peak rpm range offered compared to the xsi/s1 engines.

Second, the vtr head is a small bearing head, end of dicussion. Its a small difference, but its there none the less making it impossible to swap cams between the two types.

Third, the vtr was offered in non-roller rocker, and roller rocker (different cams again), the xsi/s1 was purely old style non-roller rocker.

10th September 2009, 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cellado

the vtr head is a small bearing head, end of dicussion. Its a small difference, but its there none the less making it impossible to swap cams between the two types.

Third, the vtr was offered in non-roller rocker, and roller rocker (different cams again), the xsi/s1 was purely old style non-roller rocker.

What makes you say that Cellado? Care to explain how several people on the AXOC have managed to interchange black top with AX GTI, 106 XSI and 106 Rallye? Gabbastard who is on this forum as well as AXOC is one example. Also Kent Cams black top VTR cams are the same with the same part numbers as there 106 XSI cams? When I was looking for a small bearing big valve head I tried many and ended up having to get it from a old 306.

10th September 2009, 20:10

http://www.106rallyeforum.com/forum2...ht=rallye+head

theres the size of vtr cam and xsi/rallye cam, so there is a difference, however im sure i seen some one on rallye reg mension the ax gti also uses big bearing cam and is interchangable with xsi/ralllye heads

also dotted around rallyereg i noticed there are a few people stating about the valve springs being slightly better in the xsi/rallye heads rather than say vtr ones

10th September 2009, 21:09

I would have asked the same question as post number 7 in your link as it sounds like there talking about 90bhp grey tops. As these have small bearing and different combustion dish shape.

This is a photo of a black top head. Please ignore the large valves as there not standard. This is the same on all the 8V 106 XSIs, 106 Rallyes, AX GTIs nad Saxo VTR black tops.

This is a photo of a grey top VTR. Note the different shape combustion chamber.

This is a black top Saxo VTR head note the Green valve springs and caps that are visually identical to that from the 106 1.6 Rallye, 106 1.3 Rallye, 106 1.4 XSI and AX GTI. Yet very different to what are on earlier or later engines. Rallye head under it for comparison

Sorry for small photo

12th September 2009, 15:32

mines a black top vtr anyway so not worth the upgrade??

13th September 2009, 14:02

ahhh i thought you meant all vtr heads silver top and blacktop, i know the blacktop is pretty much the same as rallye/xsi and ax gti, except it uses a diff cam from what they do, i thought that the blacktop was a small bearing too though?

Quote:

Originally Posted by biggee1988

mines a black top vtr anyway so not worth the upgrade??

it is in a way mate, its the cam thats in the rallye/xsi heads thats the real gain tbh, but if the blacktop is a big bearing like axracing has said then you would be better just to keep your head then get yourself a rallye or xsi cam, but depends what cam you want, they are a mild cam, 270deg, but have more lift than most other aftermarket mild cams and will be cheaper to get one of these cams, orr you have the ph3 which is a good cam but will need a remap

but if the blacktop does use big bearing cams and all you want is a mild cam i actually have a 1.3 rallye cam spare you can buy off me

lol