708s or PH3s for vts?

1. ollie-vt- Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2009 Nottingham Posts: 341 Saxo 16v VTR

   #1 22nd September 2009, 14:16

   The time has come for my vts to be cammed, but i cant decide between PH3's or 708's.
   
   
   basicly, what i want to know is which is better for acceleration, power band and most important reliability.
   
   
   i've heard the 708's can sometimes give you problems, but have a better power band?
   
   
   any help would be great, cheers guys.
2. rushy_23 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Aug 2004 West Mids Posts: 15392 '98 EK9 N1

   #2 22nd September 2009, 14:20

   I dont know much in detail. But I am aware that those two cam choices are very similar spec.
   
   I doubt there have been problems with 708s themselves, but problems arrise when they have not been set up properly, Im aware that people have issues on 3 plug ECU's that have been remapped, idle can sometimes suffer with uprated cams generally.
   
   Im sure more info will arrive soon from more experienced people.
3. Ste Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Yorkshire Posts: 5415 Saxo

   #3 22nd September 2009, 14:21

   Both the same, the PH3's have a longer duration or something. Check the specs on the catcam and newman site.
   
   Powerwise both will do exactly the same.
   
   EDIT:
   
   
   
   
   
   Basically on paper the PH3's would be the 'wilder' choice but they both produce the same figures.
4. ollie-vt- Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2009 Nottingham Posts: 341 Saxo 16v VTR

   #4 22nd September 2009, 19:59

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Ste Basically on paper the PH3's would be the 'wilder' choice but they both produce the same figures.

   
   what do you by wilder? cheers for the specs
5. Ste Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Yorkshire Posts: 5415 Saxo

   #5 22nd September 2009, 20:06

   More likely to make the car idle lumpy, loose low down power and gain more up top.
   
   With 708's/PH3's without a remap you can't expect much but with a remap you get their full potential. But i had PH3's in for ages without a map and ran fine.
6. gouldy87 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 3932

   #6 22nd September 2009, 20:08

   as mentioned by ste, the newmans have a very slight larger duration but you willl be looking at very similar gains from both sets of cam shafts.
7. Sparco_Tom Saxperience Addict Joined: Jan 2007 Aylesbury, Bucks Posts: 12836 Yeaaahh Fiesta

   #7 22nd September 2009, 20:47

   i rate the newmans personally. although they are soo similar i'd buy which ever you could get cheapest
8. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

   #8 22nd September 2009, 22:15

   i run newmans in my gti
   
   compared to 708s there similar figures and the newmans is cheaper so there the normal choice
9. willsy West Midlands Joined: Nov 2005 Nuneaton (West Mids) Posts: 13835 '64 Volvo V40 R’Design, '89 Ph1 309 GTi, ‘97 Mk1 S

   #9 22nd September 2009, 22:32

   Its all hypothetical
   
   In essence theyre both equally as good as eachother regardless of what theyre physical properties are
   
   Its the 1001 different other variables which can be looked at to compliment the cams which will make the difference IMO
   
   Ive got the Catcam 708's in mine and with the rest of my setup enabled me to get 162bhp
   
   Now i dont know of anyone who has the Newman PH3's who has got a higher figure than that (obviously without adding TB's to the mix)
   
   But then again i looked at the whole pie.
   
   Alex had just over 150bhp from his GTI with the PH3's but that doesnt make them any worse, i just know that he didnt get chance to look at some of the other aspects like Fuelling or even standalone
   
   
   The long or short of it is that theyre both as good as eachother really unless you spend alot of time and money working out the 'ultimate' combination of everything

   1 user thanked this post: Ste
10. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

    #10 22nd September 2009, 22:38

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by willsy Its all hypothetical In essence theyre both equally as good as eachother regardless of what theyre physical properties are Its the 1001 different other variables which can be looked at to compliment the cams which will make the difference IMO Ive got the Catcam 708's in mine and with the rest of my setup enabled me to get 162bhp Now i dont know of anyone who has the Newman PH3's who has got a higher figure than that (obviously without adding TB's to the mix) But then again i looked at the whole pie. Alex had just over 150bhp from his GTI with the PH3's but that doesnt make them any worse, i just know that he didnt get chance to look at some of the other aspects like Fuelling or even standalone The long or short of it is that theyre both as good as eachother really unless you spend alot of time and money working out the 'ultimate' combination of everything

    to compare though willsy is with headwork bigger injectors and a standalone
    mine was all standard and remapped oe ecu
    
    so the 10 bhp can come from that lot
11. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #11 23rd September 2009, 08:51

    very similar. haven't seen many ph3s on the rollers but the 708s give very consistent results - when set up correctly.
12. rushy_23 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Aug 2004 West Mids Posts: 15392 '98 EK9 N1

    #12 23rd September 2009, 13:16

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AlexB to compare though willsy is with headwork bigger injectors and a standalone mine was all standard and remapped oe ecu so the 10 bhp can come from that lot

    Also different rollers, power bands may be different.
    
    So many variables.
13. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

    #13 23rd September 2009, 13:20

    Yea but the point I'm saying is willsy has more work than me so there's an expected gain over mine there
    
    you can't really compare the 2 engines tbh apart from to show the benefits of the different bits willsy has
14. rushy_23 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Aug 2004 West Mids Posts: 15392 '98 EK9 N1

    #14 23rd September 2009, 13:36

    Im fully with you.
    
    But there are other factors on top of that that can account for the difference of 10bhp.
    
    Willsy's car on the X-spec rollers may be slightly less essentially making the gap smaller. Also where you made power at what RPM has to be taken for account blah blah!
    
    
    Essetially that means imo just go for whatever is the cheapest at the time like you said. The piper 285s are similar spec too Ive read. But they cost quite a lot more also
15. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

    #15 23rd September 2009, 14:05

    That's why I bought newmans rushy
    
    tbh with stuff like this it's all just pub banter at the end of the day
    it's how the car drives tbh and with all the stuff you can fo there wont really ever be 2 cars comparable
16. rushy_23 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Aug 2004 West Mids Posts: 15392 '98 EK9 N1

    #16 23rd September 2009, 14:07

    Maximum power figures is 100% pub talk.
    
    But how well the car was mapped, how beleiv'able the figures/rollers are, the actual usable power band etc etc. Thats whats important.
17. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

    #17 23rd September 2009, 14:09

    And it's all well and good having say 150 hp
    but then do things like an LSD or shorter box ect wil dramatically change the car
18. Hodgins91 Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 South Wales Posts: 1051 '52 Saxo VTS

    #18 23rd September 2009, 15:02

    sorry to hijack the thread but the ph3's description on kam, say that there is a noticeable loss in low down power, how dramatic is this loss? and will it only matter from a standing start? thanks
19. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

    #19 23rd September 2009, 15:19

    It is a tad noticeable but on standing starts it's fine tbh
    
    it's if your launching it off the mark you'll notice as you'll be giving it more revs anyway
    my car peaked at 6800 rpm near enough due to my setup but there are things like mani differences and inlet mods to shift the power about
20. gavbey Frequent Poster Joined: Mar 2007 perth Posts: 811 cammed saxo vts

    #20 23rd September 2009, 15:23

    yeah it hapens to me. give it a little bit more revs and your fine. i kept staling everywhere when i first got my cams in.
21. rushy_23 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Aug 2004 West Mids Posts: 15392 '98 EK9 N1

    #21 23rd September 2009, 15:26

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gavbey yeah it hapens to me. give it a little bit more revs and your fine. i kept staling everywhere when i first got my cams in.

    I thought once the engine was warmed up the revs hold?
    
    Also Ive read about cold start maps? What exactly do they do?
22. ollie-vt- Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2009 Nottingham Posts: 341 Saxo 16v VTR

    #22 23rd September 2009, 15:49

    going off topic here but hey its my thread, i wanna get standalone management to go along with the cams so gonna order it at the same time.
    
    
    at the moment i've got the standard 3 plug ecu, so whats the best option to go for?
    
    
    cheers in advance guys
23. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #23 23rd September 2009, 15:53

    When you map the cam lobe profiles over eachother they are virtually identical. You will not see any power gain by buying one over the other...
    
    Kev
24. gavbey Frequent Poster Joined: Mar 2007 perth Posts: 811 cammed saxo vts

    #24 24th September 2009, 16:24

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rushy_23 I thought once the engine was warmed up the revs hold? Also Ive read about cold start maps? What exactly do they do?

    my map seems to be the oposite to be fair m8, idles fine when cold start. (cold map) but gets a hel of a lumpy on hot map.
    
    ill try and get a video of the sound diffrance.
25. Ste Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Yorkshire Posts: 5415 Saxo

    #25 24th September 2009, 17:42

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rushy_23 I thought once the engine was warmed up the revs hold? Also Ive read about cold start maps? What exactly do they do?

    Its basically an electronic choke. But a clever one that changes as the engine temperature does.
    
    Because everythings electronic you need a map that gives the car an air/fuel ratio that's easier to make go bang when its cold. But you also need a map that gives it an air/fuel ratio that is suited more for efficiency/power when the engine is warm. I'm not 100% clued up but that's the basic idea.
    
    So if your car idles shit when warm its the normal map that needs looking at, if it idles shit when cold its the cold start map. Usually the cold start map is the hardest to get smooth, i know of a few silly spec N/A engines that wont idle when cold full stop.