how long can you run a cam without a remap.

1. frankie Saxperience Addict Joined: Apr 2006 Frome, down deepest, darkest zummerset Posts: 12971 VTRallye

   #1 26th September 2009, 23:53

   how long can you run a cam (PH3 to be precise) without it being mapped.
   
   i know it will run lumpy, and wont see the best gains.
   
   i know it will be loads better off asap, but im impaticned, and like fitting things as soon as they arrive.
   
   would it cause any harmful effects to the engine.
2. redevo7 Infrequent Poster Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 197

   #2 26th September 2009, 23:55

   thing you need to check is ppms (unburnt fuel) if this is excessive you will start to choke up valves, plugs, piston rings and may even get borewash.
3. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

   #3 26th September 2009, 23:59

   you can run it as long as you want mate, if you can live with a lumpy idle, mines un mapped and its spot on, redevo where would unburnt fuel come from if it aint been remapped? youll still be runinng the same map as standard,
4. redevo7 Infrequent Poster Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 197

   #4 27th September 2009, 00:01

   yes but the valves are open at different times so therefore the map will be wrong plus vacuum will be less hence the lumpy tickover (high ppms)
5. dexter Infrequent Poster Joined: Sep 2009 fife Posts: 227 97white vtd, 02silver vtr, 01blacked out vts

   #5 27th September 2009, 04:34

   i wouldn't advise you to drive for long like this you realy should get it done after you put it in
6. Ste Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Yorkshire Posts: 5415 Saxo

   #6 27th September 2009, 11:27

   I had my engine on PH3's without a map for nearly a year, works fine still and the internals are just as expected to be.
7. andywiddss1 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Nov 2007 skipton northyorks Posts: 5275 clio 172 exclusive track toy

   #7 27th September 2009, 11:44

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Ste I had my engine on PH3's without a map for nearly a year, works fine still and the internals are just as expected to be.

   same here no problems and if u set the ph3s up properly for max power they will run lumpy on tick over any way and that is with or without a remap
8. vtr_chris90 Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 nuneaton Posts: 1796 LY R26

   #8 27th September 2009, 13:54

   yer ive run may cam for about 2months now unmapped i have the ph2 frankie but as you know its same as ph3, but its fine a little lumpy, get a flat spot now and again, and also when you start up in the monring its and its cold its a bit worse but once warm its fine tbh mate and you stillg get a great improvement even unmapped, as long as you get timing right it should be fine, and if you run s1 inlet it wont be as bad either cause it will get more air in cause its a heavy breathing cam and std inlet is small its restricting the air to it, well i think so anyway lol and im sure blackie said his idle was quite good and he had the ph3 and s1 inlet
   
   but you should be fine mate, it will run slightly rich but i get 38-40mpg still and i have xsi box too so am in same boat as what you would be, so if im getting that mpg it cant be overfueling that bad can it lol
9. frankie Saxperience Addict Joined: Apr 2006 Frome, down deepest, darkest zummerset Posts: 12971 VTRallye

   #9 27th September 2009, 13:59

   sweet.
   
   think im guna run the silvertop, but put the s1 valve springs in as you said there stronger, maye use the valves to as there biggerr i think.
10. vtr_chris90 Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 nuneaton Posts: 1796 LY R26

    #10 27th September 2009, 14:04

    i think the vlaves are the same from what sandy was saying
    
    but yes the springs is a good move lol cause they are better springs its cause the xsi and rallyes used a higher re limiter i think so using stronger springs made it safer to rev to that higher limiter iirc
    
    yer it will be fine though mate just do it lol
11. frankie Saxperience Addict Joined: Apr 2006 Frome, down deepest, darkest zummerset Posts: 12971 VTRallye

    #11 27th September 2009, 14:06

    good times yo.
    
    hopefully the R will pass its mot retest next week, save some money, and buy and fit a cam
12. vtr_chris90 Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 nuneaton Posts: 1796 LY R26

    #12 27th September 2009, 14:14

    ahh hope mot goes well mate lol
    
    will be good fun though mate, even unmapped im very impressed with my cam, its going on rollers next week aswell so will see how its doing unmapped, may have a play with timning while in on there cause its a group buy session im not sure if i can, but will try lol
    
    also looking at attempting the s1 inlet again this week, im going to fit the R icv set up and bolt it on end of inlet so it will be just like std i think that may work, plus it will be a lot easier this time now timing is right lol
    
    i tink thats wh i struggled to get it to idle before cause all the timing was waaaaaaay out haha
13. gouldy87 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 3932

    #13 27th September 2009, 14:27

    forever
14. vtr_chris90 Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 nuneaton Posts: 1796 LY R26

    #14 27th September 2009, 14:28

    lol nice answer
    
    but very true
15. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #15 27th September 2009, 14:40

    my timings set up spot on for power and my idle is only lumpy at cold start but it is very lumpy at cold start lol
16. vtr_chris90 Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 nuneaton Posts: 1796 LY R26

    #16 27th September 2009, 14:43

    did you time urs up properly on rollers mate?
    
    mines pretty much timed up near to perfect though it runs quite well, i did mine using a dti gauge, but just want to get it tweeked a bit on rollers
    
    how did you get ur inlet to idle right though? mine was a right gay
17. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #17 27th September 2009, 14:47

    had major probs with my inlet and i think many do, but i worked it out, on the tb there is 2 holes (one had a black plastic thing in n mine the other must have got lost) that must be for a pipe feed, any ways it was drawing in air through the holes and revving irratically and sticking between 2-3k, simply plugged them both and it was spot on, wwill try get a pic of it up if anyones interested
18. vtr_chris90 Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 nuneaton Posts: 1796 LY R26

    #18 27th September 2009, 14:52

    yer i blocked all them only vacuum i had onto the inlet was for brake servo and the one that goes to charcoal canister i think it is, but i got mine close by adjusting the actual icv you can change that plug thing inside by turning it, and did quite well but with the cam timing being out it just made it impossible, then i put std back on, sorted out cam timing and just left inlet lol id had enough of my car at the time lol
    
    a pic might help though
19. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #19 27th September 2009, 14:56

    there are a few holes on the tb that arent obvious which is what im on a bout mate i didnt see them, there are quite alot oof pipe run off etc on the actuall tb and inlet but i didnt see these two, if someone posts a pic of the rallye tb i can point out where i mean, i think this is why most cant get it to work right and then give u tbh, took me nearly 2 weeks and a nealry burnt clutch before i found it, had the whole hing of and on 2-3 times, but now its on its well worth it
20. vtr_chris90 Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 nuneaton Posts: 1796 LY R26

    #20 27th September 2009, 14:59

    ahhhh ok mate well if you could get a pic of yours and where these holes are that would be awsome, i mean i did lightly spray some carb cleaner around the inlet to see if there was any holes cause if there was it would suck that in and engine would rev higher or alter, but it never so thought i had all the holes blocked up
    
    but it could be these are you able to get a pick up anytime soon? as ill be fitting this during the week i think along with new rocker and double checking the tappets are still at right spaces
21. vtr_chris90 Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 nuneaton Posts: 1796 LY R26

    #21 27th September 2009, 15:01

    oh actually just thought, do you mean the holes where the icv is? where it draws the air in then puts it out the two holes behind the butterfly?
22. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #22 27th September 2009, 15:18

    dont think so mate ill go get a pic and try post it up
23. vtr_chris90 Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 nuneaton Posts: 1796 LY R26

    #23 27th September 2009, 15:24

    yer defo man i think that may be it though, are you using your icv on the left like on std inlet? or was you using the std rallye one on the tb?
24. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #24 27th September 2009, 15:24

    
    
25. vtr_chris90 Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 nuneaton Posts: 1796 LY R26

    #25 27th September 2009, 15:27

    ohhhh i know the wholes you mean
    
    yer i have both them blocked up, cause on mine where youve bolted it up, mine had one of the black things coming off
    
    but i think one of the probs i had was i was trying to use where std rally icv is, but i think the icv was fucked aswelll so that didnt help
    
    so this week im going to bolt vtr icv on left and try that cause i know my vtr icv works
26. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #26 27th September 2009, 15:28

    rallye didnt have icv iirc? thats why you use the vtr one, right my icv from the vtr is on the left as it was before fitted with an airline fitting and a piece of rubber tube, the top pics show the rallye tb, on the top pic there is a black plastic outlet with a flat head screw in it under the unused sensor, this is one of the holes, on the other side(bttom pic) it didn hav the plastic whic is why i didnt see the hole thus there is a bolt screwed and siliconed in, this is why mine had mega problems and wouldnt idle right, the hole was drawing in air when the butterfly was shut shut making it go crazy on idle, if this helps there you have it, if ppl no this never mind
27. vtr_chris90 Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 nuneaton Posts: 1796 LY R26

    #27 27th September 2009, 15:37

    yer i know all that now lol i was trying to think of which holes you meant lol
    
    i have blocked them off though
    
    the rallye inlet does use icv, you know that black unused sensor youve got plugged in that says mgnetti marelli VDO on it, well thats actually the icv lol
    
    theres a big hole on the filter side of tb isnt there opposite where the temp sensor goes, well thats where the air is drawn in to the icv, then theres two holes behind the butterfuly thats where the air goes out into the inlet, if you take that sensor off you will see its the same as a vtr one, and theres a hole which the plundger goes up to and thats what opens and closes to let air in
    
    same as the vtr one, but the vtr icv is on that little unit thing isnt it, cause you can either unbolt the whole unit, or the icv its self on vtr one
    
    it all works the same though, vtr one uses air drawn in by that hole that comes off, some have put a filter on like i have and some still have pipe going to airbox, and then the plundger on icv comes back to let air go into the manifold
28. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #28 27th September 2009, 16:50

    rrrr yeah i get you mate, blocked them up too as they were drawing in air, cut a lil piece of plactic like a credit card and fill the gap with it, siliconed it in place on mine, its a squarish hole iirc yeah? rounded toward the back? on the actual tb inlet? n the botttom iirc? going to beeter fill it when i go boost, may alu weld it and file it back as ill be portin the tb too,
29. vtr_chris90 Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 nuneaton Posts: 1796 LY R26

    #29 27th September 2009, 23:42

    yer kind of, id say more oval on the inside the tb, and when you remove the sensor theres two holes inside it, then 2 roundish ones behind butterfly
    
    yer thats how im filling mine with liquid metal, but im using a 5p it fits in the hole perfect where the sensor bolts in then sealing it with liquid metal, as you only realy need to fit that hole, but can always do the one inside the tb its self where air temp sensor sticks out, im only fitting my inlet temporarily untill pred is done then my bodies are going on
30. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #30 28th September 2009, 16:28

    will be gettin mine welded id imagine as the hole will restrict the boost flow slightly id imagine when i fit the turbo,