Cambelt and Cams help....

11th October 2009, 10:46

Hi guys.

Bit of help and knowledge needed please.

I want to do a cambelt change on my 2002 vts, as I cannot see any record of it being done as yet in all my service history.

Firstly, can anyone tell me what else I should be getting done at the same time? I've read in place that you should do water pump too, is this correct?

Also, I was wondering, whilst whichever garage I get to do the timing belt, would it be a good idea to get the cams changed aswell, as I was thinking of doing this at some point too. What cams should I be looking at, nothing too crazy, as I am currently running just an exhaust and K&n panel filter. (will be upgrading to full supersprint mani,decat and race system soon)

Any help would be great.

Thanks!

11th October 2009, 10:52

I'd get a cambelt kit, so: cambelt, idler pulley, cambelt tensioner (about £70)

Whilst it's off it'd be rude not to replace the waterpump for piece of mind (£30 from gsf/eurocarparts, or £65 from Citroen)

Depending on the condition of the alternator belt, could change that too for the sake of £10 - it has to come off anyway.

Cams, I'd look to get some Catcam 708's, Piper BP285's or Newmans PH3's (around about £350 for either of them) - depending on the mileage of the engine I'd fit a new set of hydraulic followers (around about £200). Time them up well and the car will run fine, a remap would be beneficial when you've finished all your engine work (around about £300-£500 depending on where you go)

11th October 2009, 11:06

Cheers fella

If I supplied waterpump and cambelt kit and alternator belt, how much do you think I should be aiming for when finding out quotes for installation?

I should be able to get some piper cams on the cheap, so will see what prices I can get there too.

11th October 2009, 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaxoAL

Cheers fella

If I supplied waterpump and cambelt kit and alternator belt, how much do you think I should be aiming for when finding out quotes for installation?

I should be able to get some piper cams on the cheap, so will see what prices I can get there too.

Urm, I'd say around about the £100-£150 mark maybe? I've never had it done at a garage so couldn't say for sure. For a garage I'd say maybe a 2-3hour job to replace it all and bleed coolant system.

Piper cams should be sweet !

19th October 2009, 17:09

has anyone else got any input on this? Piper cams (that I can get through work) seem to be more expensive than other brands? I need to start ordering some stuff.
My plans are to not go too mental, I will be ordering a complete supersprint including manifold at some point too, so bear that in mind also.

Thanks.

19th October 2009, 17:23

I'd get a Raceland 4-2-1 over the Supersprint and pocket the extra cash tbh - I found my Supersprint 8V was a pretty shoddy fit. Also, the two piece design is less than ideal and should really be welded together for a good seal imo. If you have money to burn and want top notch quality, could always go for a Piper 4-1.

I think the three sets of cams raunchz mentioned all have very similar profiles. I'd maybe go for PH3's (the cheapest iirc) if you can't get the Pipers any cheaper with your discount. Labour always takes a big chunk of cash out the budget... might be worth driving to someone knowledgeable from this forum and have them do the work for you?

I would probably have the cams set to standard timing initially, then get the car to someone reputable and have the cam timing adjusted on their rollers for best power.

21st October 2009, 09:15

How do I check the cambelt to see if it needs doing? Take cover off and check condition of the belt? I'm assuming I should be looking for cracks and splits in the belt?

Also, If I do need it doing, as like I say I can't see any history of it being done and I'd prefer to do it, if I weren't to do the uprated cams at the same time, would the timing have to be redone when i do get them done? Only as its mouting up to be quite a hefty bill if I were to do it all at the same time!

21st October 2009, 09:21

IMO it's quite hard to see whether a belt 'looks' like it needs doing. You can tell if it's a relatively new belt or old belt by the condition of the writing on belt.

The engine will need to be timed back up but it's easy to do, just need to lock the bottom end at tdc, then lock both camshafts. This is the way to time the engine up to standard timing marks - whereas with 'uprated camshafts you'd need to do this PLUS then set up a dti gauge on a follower and adjust both inlet and exhaust to read the correct opening at tdc.

21st October 2009, 09:24

im awesome at timing them in... i even leave the allen key in and try and start the engine not ideal LOL...

21st October 2009, 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

IMO it's quite hard to see whether a belt 'looks' like it needs doing. You can tell if it's a relatively new belt or old belt by the condition of the writing on belt.

The engine will need to be timed back up but it's easy to do, just need to lock the bottom end at tdc, then lock both camshafts. This is the way to time the engine up to standard timing marks - whereas with 'uprated camshafts you'd need to do this PLUS then set up a dti gauge on a follower and adjust both inlet and exhaust to read the correct opening at tdc.

So yeh basically it will need to be adjusted twice.
By the looks of what I have read on here, installing the actual cams is relatively simple, but its the timing side of things that I would not trust myself with. I think its me being tight and trying to do everything at once, to try and limit the labour costs!

21st October 2009, 10:19

timing up the cams to standard marks is really easy - if you follow the guide on here you can't go wrong!! Just rotate the engine before starting the engine to check clearances

21st October 2009, 11:37

I'm really not that confident tbh. I'd rather get it done by a garage where I'd have some sort of comeback if something were to go wrong lol ! plus then I'd get the service history in form of a receipt!

21st October 2009, 11:42

are you looking to run standard ecu or go standalone? any plans for t/b's etc?

i found the 708's to be great, but as said, the newmans are pretty much identical profile.

if you run the 708's on the standard settings, its a piece of piss to get them installed, and something you could do yourself to save money.

then when you get it mapped, get them to swing the cams to get the best spread of power.

21st October 2009, 11:52

Standard ECU for now I think mate.
Want to look into Predator ECU once that all up and running too.

If I can get the cams for decent money and run then on standard ECU map until i afford to get it all setup, then I'll do that. But its just the initial fork out for cambelt kit, water pump, tensioners (required?) and then the cams themselves, pus labour to install. All amounts up to quite alot it seems!

21st October 2009, 11:59

cams arent that hard to install, and should run well on the standard settings - yeah they'll be a bit lumpy, but shit happens.

get the full kit, then there'll be no doubt in your mind about it performing well.

if you did get them fitted, it shouldnt be more than 150 quid or so, including the belt, its only a couple of hours or so for someone who knows what theyre doing

i'd look into getting the standalone sooner rather than later tho, then you can tweak if you notice anything wrong and to get a cock on idle

21st October 2009, 12:13

not sure on the cams but as said above cambelt kit shouldnt be more that £70, (i just gt one for a rover 216 for £45) ive never done just a belt, always get the kit with tensioners and guides in just for peice of mind and its good practice to change the lot while your there. also the water pump mayaswell get done for the cost of them. should definatly be under £150 labour at a garage inc the new cams installed, onece an engine is locked to do belt anyways removing installing the new cams dosent take much longer especially if like said above you can run them on the standard settings.

21st October 2009, 15:52

i have piper bp285s for sale along with a 4.5 bar fuel reg if you end up doing this. i still have my reciept from gmc motorsport. they are in the for sale section

21st October 2009, 15:53

what exactly does the fpr do? I'm assuming I dont need it, but can use it?
edit> please no-one say "it regulates fuel" ... lol, I'm not that much of a novice! lol

21st October 2009, 16:01

keeps the fuel at a constant pressure.

if your fuel is at a higher pressure then you can get more in for each blast of the injectors.

you should be fine on standard pressure and injectors if you've just got the cams.

21st October 2009, 16:17

Yeh thats what i thought. Any more mods and FPR would be needed I suppose?

21st October 2009, 16:25

the fpr can also be a way of getting round a remap. as this was the case for me. with the powerband moving up the rev range this helps supply sufficient fuel. if you want any advice from an experienced engine tuner then ring john at gmc, he will answer any questions you have

21st October 2009, 16:36

it will only increase the fuelling, and is a rather crude method of doing it.

it wont change the ignition settings, whcih are just as important for extracting power

22nd October 2009, 11:48

Looking through the Piper catalogue here at work it say the BP285 isnt recommended for use with standard injection? But everyone on here seems to use that one?

22nd October 2009, 12:37

these cat cams 708 and newman ph3s are all really on the limit of needing throttle boddies, they hav to say that on the website ect so that people dont complauin when their car idols lumpy

22nd October 2009, 12:39

in otherwords the recommend a remap

22nd October 2009, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaxoAL

Looking through the Piper catalogue here at work it say the BP285 isnt recommended for use with standard injection? But everyone on here seems to use that one?

normally just means you need a remap.

they are the catcam 708/ newmans ph3 equivilent.

Well the ph3 actually has a slightly higher lift, same duration.

22nd October 2009, 14:09

The BP285H Spec cams are designed for a stand alone ECU and throttle bodies to get the best from them. If you are running the stock inlet then the BP270H will actually give you a much more useable, and quicker, car than over camming the engine.

I did alot of design work on these cams when i designed the profiles and think i have got them pretty much spot on

(I worked at Piper for 10 years before working here)

Kind Regards

Garry
MotorSportWorld - South

22nd October 2009, 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotorSportWorld

The BP285H Spec cams are designed for a stand alone ECU and throttle bodies to get the best from them. If you are running the stock inlet then the BP270H will actually give you a much more useable, and quicker, car than over camming the engine.

I did alot of design work on these cams when i designed the profiles and think i have got them pretty much spot on

(I worked at Piper for 10 years before working here)

Kind Regards

Garry
MotorSportWorld - South

Were the 270's designed to run on the standard ecu with the standard map in place?

22nd October 2009, 14:46

They run okay on a stock map, but can have a slightly lumpy idle. With a customised chip these really come into there own.

Kind Regards

Garry
MotorSportWorld - South

22nd October 2009, 16:40

ahh, this adds more to my predicament! lol
Garry, thats proviced a bit of help.
Have you got a contact number I can contact you on when I get a spare moment.

thanks mate.

22nd October 2009, 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotorSportWorld

They run okay on a stock map, but can have a slightly lumpy idle. With a customised chip these really come into there own.

Kind Regards

Garry
MotorSportWorld - South

Was speaking to my mate today about them when he had them in his gti.

Said it went really well on the stock map. But since has gone wilder, itbs etc lol

22nd October 2009, 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaxoAL

ahh, this adds more to my predicament! lol
Garry, thats proviced a bit of help.
Have you got a contact number I can contact you on when I get a spare moment.

thanks mate.

Sure. As long as you buy the cams from me

01357 440472.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_VTS

Was speaking to my mate today about them when he had them in his gti.

Said it went really well on the stock map. But since has gone wilder, itbs etc lol

Just as they were intended

Kind Regards

Garry
MotorSportWorld - South

24th October 2009, 19:12

So by the looks of it, the ones I want to be ordering are the 270's then?

24th October 2009, 19:32

I ran bp285s on a standard inlet to pipers timing spec and it seemed to run fine. Didn't run it long like this but idled fine.

24th October 2009, 20:14

Looking about at others that have done cams in vts engines, it looks as if most run 285's.
I think to suit my spec I think 270's, will hopefully produce better gains with my chosen air filter/exhaust setup and then
when I decide to dig deep and invest in predator when its released for 3plug.

Arghhhh. Decisions!!!

26th October 2009, 10:17

Al

Give me a call when your ready to order and i can give you some advise and help on what parts are best to run given your requirements and engine spec

01357 440472

Kind Regards

Garry
MotorSportWorld - South