Important! : Black-top cylinder head swap on to a 51 plate VTR-enabes S1 Rallye Inlet Mani?

30th October 2009, 23:40

Hi guys,

I'm wanting to fit a Newman phase 3 camshaft to my 51 plate (silvertop) VTR but would like to fit it along with an S1 Rallye inlet manifold!

From what i have searched on here, the porting on my current cylinder head wont line up with that of the S1 manifold. But it will line up with that on the mk1 vtr's cylinder head (black top). or an early silvertop.

How do i go about fitting a black top cylinder head to my engine to enable fitment of this S1 inlet manifold? does it have the same fitments as my current head or are there some differences? will it be a straight swap?

I assume if i had a black top head on the car, i would have to order the phase 3 cams for the non-roller blacktop cylinderhead?

Any help willl be great,

Cheers,

Mike

30th October 2009, 23:51

By fitting the black top head you'll need to convert to non-roller rockers.

Fit a 90bhp single plug VTR head with roller rockers - port spacing matches that of the S1 inlet.

31st October 2009, 00:19

I have done this mate, It was a straight swap altho if your doing this you will need your pistons potted ( Depends how much your head has been skimmed ) Otherwise you will get vavle / pistons touching.

The water / oil pump or what ever it is on the side of the head make sure you get the one that is for the blacktop head, the silver top does not fit properly and you will get oil leak.

You can modify your silvertop coilpack but if you find it easier you can just change it to the blacktop.

I have the S1 Inlet, Fast Road Cams, Piper 4-1 Mani, Magnex Zorst, Its on 121 Bhp atm unmapped, just waiting on ecu / a place that can map the vtr properly

Hope it helps

Cheers

1st November 2009, 17:17

thanks for the replies guys, can you get your pistons done without removing the engine etc?

Also, these silver tops with the roller rockers and correct port spacing for the S1 inlet- what age saxo had these cylinder heads? and would my silvertop coilpack fit this? as i just spent quite a bit on a new coilpack and don't really want to throw it out.

Cheers

1st November 2009, 17:28

The silver top coil pack fitted to the 98bhp engine should fit the 90bhp head. Shouldn't need to machine the pistons either - I think they only changed the inlet port spacing for the newer 98bhp inlet manifold.

Pretty sure the 90bhp heads were fitted to VTRs around about V reg (some of them) through to X reg.

1st November 2009, 17:40

for the effort of extra cost I wouldn't bother unless you have a good solid long weekend

1st November 2009, 21:56

well i need an s1 inlet manifold if im going to fit a phase 3 cam so its worth it and not that time consuming to fit! One weekend isnt very long to me! :> anyway, its not very expensive to source a black top cylinder head (£40) then about £50-100 for the S1 inlet and throttle bodies. and then cost of a new head gasket? That sound about right?

so not that bad.

Is it definate that the pistons will be ok?
they should be really....its not a racing cam?

Thanks for the replies again

1st November 2009, 22:00

You don't *need* an S1 inlet to run a Newman PH3 - will actually make it harder to get it running right imo. Seems a bit hit or miss whether they will run/ idle properly with the Rallye inlet fitted. If you really want to fit an S1 inlet, the 90bhp head should be a straight swap for the 98bhp head. I don't understand why you'd want to convert to a black top head then possibly run into trouble with valve/ piston clearance?

A lad on here with a 98bhp VTR engined 206 made 120+ bhp at the fly (unmapped, but with cam timing adjusted on the rollers IIRC) with the standard inlet manifold.

1st November 2009, 22:36

I wasnt saying you will run into problems with the head, Some people have some people havn't.

I was one who did have problems and had to machine the pistons, Its only where the Blacktop engine pistons are dished and the silvertop pistons are not dished

1st November 2009, 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixSaxo

I wasnt saying you will run into problems with the head, Some people have some people havn't.

I was one who did have problems and had to machine the pistons, Its only where the Blacktop engine pistons are dished and the silvertop pistons are not dished

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeumH

I don't understand why you'd want to convert to a black top head then possibly run into trouble with valve/ piston clearance?

Hence why I said the above.

The standard 98bhp VTR inlet would do the job imo. If it aint broke, don't fix it!

3rd November 2009, 22:54

ok i understand, thanks!

Well i want to squeeze all the extra power i can out of the engine without removal of the engine! its not really going to be a road-going car anyway! The head will be ported etc as well.

And surely an S1 inlet will help achieve this? as its 3 times the size of the vtr!
And also, people say they have noticed better gains with it!

is there no way i can fit a newman phase 3 and have an S1 inlet?

Cheers,

X

3rd November 2009, 22:58

can fit the s1 inlet to your head with a bit of work

3rd November 2009, 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saxy_Me-chelle

is there no way i can fit a newman phase 3 and have an S1 inlet?

In your position, I'd find a head from a silver top 90bhp VTR (V reg - X reg) then have the head work done to that, i.e ported and polished, lapped valves, new stem oil seals etc. Fit the PH3 and S1 inlet, then swap your newly built head for your 98bhp head.

4th November 2009, 20:02

ahh thats the way i was thinking of doing it, as that allows me to do the head work whilst still driving my car around with the current head on it!

So i'm assuming the silver top 90bhp vtr wont have the same valve/piston clearance issues of that from the 90bhp black top vtr?

oh also, what age VTR actually is 90bhp with a Silver top? i don't have a clue you see lol

Cheers for your help guys,

4th November 2009, 20:02

oh shit, my bad, sorry i didnt see you told me the age of the 90bhp silvertop already! ooopps

4th November 2009, 20:43

90bhp and 98bhp heads should be exactly the same bar the inlet spacing - 98bhp engine had a revised inlet manifold.

5th November 2009, 13:33

but does that mean i would still get valve/piston clearance issues?

5th November 2009, 14:23

Why would you if the heads are exactly the same bar the inlet spacing?

5th November 2009, 18:14

"same bar the inlet spacing"? excuse my ignorance, but what the hell does that mean? lol

i'm really confused now

....a minute ago people were saying i will have piston/valvle clearance issues if i use a cylinder head with the correct inlet port spacing for the s1 inlet manifold?

please can you you clear this up for me so i know exactly what i need to buy and fit...

cheers

6th November 2009, 15:16

Nice thread mate!

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeumH

90bhp and 98bhp heads should be exactly the same bar the inlet spacing - 98bhp engine had a revised inlet manifold.

That's the key, the reason why the S1 Rallye Inlet won't fit on yours is because it has the 98bhp spacing, where as the early silver tops and black tops had the same spacing as that of the Rallye (correct me If I'm wrong guys).

So if you go for the early silvertop, you won't get piston/valve issues, plus you'll have the correct port spacing for the Rallye Inlet.

On another note, the early Silvertops were the early Mark 2's, EG W, X, Y Reg (Possibly V Reg as well, but not 100% on that)

Hope all is good back in TAU man, the plans are sounding good.

8th November 2009, 00:21

haha hello Danoooo

who'd of thought you would be the one to clear up my confusion? lol
cheers though mate....i think thats what i was getting at: that the early silver tops have the same port spacing as the black top head but don't give you the same valve/piston clearance issues?

just to confirm, this is right isnt it? I mean when fitting a phase 3 camshaft?

p.s. Oh yea Dan, guess what,....my gearbox eventually went (for good) on the motorway last night at midnight...my wheels locked up and almost end up sliding sideways into the middle lane....NOT FUN

I think we both would agree it has held out quite well up until now though....especially with my driving style lol

8th November 2009, 05:00

From what I've read...Black top and early silver have correct port spacings. Black top would have piston/valve clearance but silvertop wouldn't. Damn that has lasted quite a long time, try and treat the next one a bit better! Lol.