full vts engine rebuild?

17th November 2009, 23:18

anyone whos done one got an idea of the cost of full rebuilding a vts engine? and anthing im missing off my list, or anything thats not really needed? thinking of buying a second engine and spending a few months tucked away in the garage slowly rebuilding, i know its probably gonna be pretty expensive going by my list so far;
head gasket
sump gasket
cam seals
valve stem seals
valves
valve springs
followers
piston rings
big end shells
crank bearings
cam belt/tensioners
water pump
alternator
coilpack
clutch

im also gonna lighten the flywheel (wont cost anything i can do it at college) get the head skimmed and flowed and possibly the crank balanced.
can i get the block proffesionally cleaned with like an acid dip or somethin?

cheers!

17th November 2009, 23:20

oil pump?

17th November 2009, 23:24

not a bad one to consider, any idea of the cost of a genuine oil pump?

17th November 2009, 23:29

havnt got the foggiest, theres one on ebay now for a 5er but it is used.

17th November 2009, 23:35

yeah spotted that one, obviously id have a used one in the engine already

17th November 2009, 23:39

lol yeah. best bets prob citroen for one tbh

17th November 2009, 23:53

I wouldn't bother with valves, just clean them up and lap them back in. If they look eroded badly then obvi replace them.

I'm not sure about oil pump tbh, how many Vts engines do you hear about failing due to a faulty oil pump?! If be tempted to clean it up etc and refit it.

Plans sound good, I'm hopefully going to rebuild mine next year to improve my spec, will aim to use Citeoen parts unless they take the piss on prices!

I'm definately looking at getting the bottom end balanced up - matching rods and hi comp pistons. Might be worth fitting some nice pistons while apart? But would depend on what you wana do with the engine.

Then just run it in 'properly' - I think the pumaracing way sounds the best.

18th November 2009, 08:11

thats what i thought, ive never heard of the oil pump failing. i was also thinkin the same about the valves.
im not sure about tuning, new pistons, cams and bodies lol i'll end up spending a fortune! it is a consideration though...

18th November 2009, 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeM

thats what i thought, ive never heard of the oil pump failing. i was also thinkin the same about the valves.
im not sure about tuning, new pistons, cams and bodies lol i'll end up spending a fortune! it is a consideration though...

Yeh I know what you mean, the rebuild will cost enough!!! But would be rude not to whilst you've got it apart, suppose could see what funds are like nearer the time.

18th November 2009, 09:03

Lee / Raunchz have you worked out a price for the re-build?

i am considering this and need approx figures.

18th November 2009, 09:08

Off the top of my head prices are as follows:

Block rebore £120
Bottom end bearings £100
Crankshaft seals £50
Headgasket £50
Headbolts £20
Waterpump £60
Cambelt kit £70
Pistons (forged hi comp) £380
camshaft oil seal £15
Catcam springs £240
Camshafts £350
Followers £200
valve stem seals £30
thermostat £10
misc £30

Mixture of Citroen and non-oem parts, IMO Citroen parts are preferable but some are £££££ hence going non-oem for them

18th November 2009, 09:12

The thing also worth asking youself, if your fully rebuilding the head with fresh parts is it worth fitting old cams, it'd be worth dropping ssome mild cams in there like Piper BP270s and run them in with the new followers

potentially the same with pistons, although a new set of piston rings is around £100 at a guess vs hi comps at rrp of £550

18th November 2009, 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

Off the top of my head prices are as follows:

Block rebore £120
Bottom end bearings £100
Crankshaft seals £50
Headgasket £50
Headbolts £20
Waterpump £60
Cambelt kit £70
Pistons (forged hi comp) £380
camshaft oil seal £15
Catcam springs £240
Camshafts £350
Followers £200
valve stem seals £30
thermostat £10
misc £30

That comes to £1725 with forged hi comp pistons.
Are the forged pistons necessary?My plan is for bodies in the end.

18th November 2009, 09:44

If your going bodies then IMO whilst you've got the engine apart you'd be silly not to fit hi comp pistons.

They give better torque due to the increase in compression.

The 'Catcam springs £240' are uprated springs - so if you fitted the forged pistons you caould run say newmans ph4 cams and have 170+ bhp which should be more than enough! If you didn't run forgies then would be no need for these 'uprated springs (springs to cope with the extra valve lift you can run@tdc with hi comps)

18th November 2009, 10:00

So really i 'could' rebuild with standard pistons and valve springs with bodies but it would be rude not to put them in

lol

What bhp would you expect without the forged pistons with decent cam (ph3's, 708's) and a standalone ecu?

18th November 2009, 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom

So really i 'could' rebuild with standard pistons and valve springs with bodies but it would be rude not to put them in

lol

What bhp would you expect without the forged pistons with decent cam (ph3's, 708's) and a standalone ecu?

Yeh, I'm currently running TBs, standalone and Piper BP285s (pretty much same as 708s/ph3s) on standard pistons and valve springs - I would like to think this was between 150-160bhp

With hi comps I'd hope for over 160, but nearer 160 than 170 bhp.

Change to say ph4s and would think nearer 170 if not 170 odd. Will all depend on the exhaust system, tb setup, timing and quality of mapping. But at this stage you really want to think about a clutch to cope, maybe a diff, brakes to cope, oil cooler

18th November 2009, 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

Yeh, I'm currently running TBs, standalone and Piper BP285s (pretty much same as 708s/ph3s) on standard pistons and valve springs - I would like to think this was between 150-160bhp

With hi comps I'd hope for over 160, but nearer 160 than 170 bhp.

Change to say ph4s and would think nearer 170 if not 170 odd. Will all depend on the exhaust system, tb setup, timing and quality of mapping. But at this stage you really want to think about a clutch to cope, maybe a diff, brakes to cope, oil cooler

Cams and a map get about 150 - 160 without tbs :s doesnt tb's increase bhp? or are they mainly for better throttle response and torque.

Sorry for all the n00b questions. I would like to know everything before i start.

18th November 2009, 10:31

They don't give a big bhp increase, they give a smoother idle, more low down torque and allow you to run wilder cams.

Plus they sound great!!

Also, I was trying to leave this out, but there's 'bhp figures' and there's real figures. It's a debate for another day. Also people can fit ph3s on a standard Ecu, whereas with TBs you need standalone (some will argue you don't)

^^ This means with tbs you end up with an 'optimum' map instead of standard Ecu.

I would think a Vts with cams and standalone would be pretty much on par with the same car but tbs - the driveability of the tb car would be a lot better IMO

18th November 2009, 10:45

Cheers for that Raunchz

Well with an approx figure i can work out if it will be worth it.
Im planning on buying back my old westcoast and stick a re-built vts engine in. Or stick a newer engine in (307 lump)
A low mileage 307 engine sounds more promising as then i can afford forged pistons and uprated springs.

Im sure i will have more questions for you soon

18th November 2009, 10:57

Yeh no probs-fire away with questions when you want.

I'd look to run j4 rods as they are deemed stronger. The 307 engine (tu5jp4) has larger inlet valves so should help with better gains - just need to watch lower compression on these plus the forged pistons seem to have an 18mm pin size. So if you go with a tu5jp4 engine you might wana go with tu5j4 hi comps with tu5j4 rods to match the j4 pin size of 19.47mm

I wouldn't chase figures, but go for the spec of engine you can afford. I love my engine at mo, it does everything I want. I'm building the engine as more of a learning exercise and a project than chasing figures plus would be nice to have more torque as we all would like more power.

18th November 2009, 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

Off the top of my head prices are as follows:

Block rebore £120
Bottom end bearings £100
Crankshaft seals £50
Headgasket £50
Headbolts £20
Waterpump £60
Cambelt kit £70
Pistons (forged hi comp) £380
camshaft oil seal £15
Catcam springs £240
Camshafts £350
Followers £200
valve stem seals £30
thermostat £10
misc £30

Mixture of Citroen and non-oem parts, IMO Citroen parts are preferable but some are £££££ hence going non-oem for them

big end shells too??
high comp pistons would mean your sticking to n/a?? what are the advantages of using a higher comp ratio??
and would standard rods be fine so longs as the rev limit aint goin to high??
oil pump went on my first vts many moons ago, just fooked the cams and tappets if i remember rightly, imo if its coming apart then you might aswell spend the £160 for a genuine new pump and then you can forget about it

18th November 2009, 16:55

I included them in the bottom end bearings amount

18th November 2009, 17:04

oh right

also lee, throttle bodies allow alot more air to flow into the cylinders, the standard inlet is to restictive for the lift some 'wilder' cams give.

18th November 2009, 17:08

Quote:

Block rebore £120
Bottom end bearings £100
Crankshaft seals £50
Headgasket £50
Headbolts £20
Waterpump £60
Cambelt kit £70
Pistons (forged hi comp) £380
camshaft oil seal £15
Catcam springs £240
Camshafts £350
Followers £200
valve stem seals £30
thermostat £10
misc £30

Rebores not necessary unless the cylinder walls are damaged to be fair.

Also you can get headgasket kits with the HG plate, stretch bolts, valve stem seals, all manifold gaskets and camshaft seals for about £70. Waterpumps can be found for £25. Crankshaft seals are about £10-15 each. Not being a corrective cunt, just trying to help you save some monaes. I cant get cambelt kits that cheap though, do tell Ross

18th November 2009, 17:12

there were some gates kits going on fleabay for 50quid ish but they only fit the 1.4 16v vts lol

18th November 2009, 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeM

head gasket - £70 in kit mentioned
sump gasket - Sump uses sealant not a gasket, so about £3
cam seals - Come with HG kit
valve stem seals - As above
valves - No need
valve springs - £230ish
followers- £210ish
piston rings- £120
big end shells - £30
crank bearings - Cant remember, have the price saved on my laptop
cam belt/tensioners - £85
water pump - £25
alternator - Belt is £5. No real need to get a new one, your looking at over £100
coilpack - As above
clutch - £85 for a Valeo/LUK unit

These are the prices I pay

18th November 2009, 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TU-Tuning

Rebores not necessary unless the cylinder walls are damaged to be fair.

Also you can get headgasket kits with the HG plate, stretch bolts, valve stem seals, all manifold gaskets and camshaft seals for about £70. Waterpumps can be found for £25. Crankshaft seals are about £10-15 each. Not being a corrective cunt, just trying to help you save some monaes. I cant get cambelt kits that cheap though, do tell Ross

Im just having a quick bite to eat - will update in a bit - most of them are Citroen prices btw

18th November 2009, 17:44

http://www.106parts.com/s2/page1.php...4=35&part=7733

Kablam !! Get a bit of money off it too if a 106rallyeregister member. Just saved you £20 mate

Most of the parts I listed are rough costs, with things like headbolts, headgasket, valvestem oil seels,waterpump from Citroen so going to be a bit more expensive but IMO worth it - I'm only rebuilding this engine once!!

When fitting pistons rings you'll need to at least de-glaze the bores. And fitting hi comps you may as well go for a slight re-bore by .5mm or something along those lines to get perfect bores! If you have a score you'll need larger pistons anyway as will need to remove material to remove the score hence the standard pistons will no longer fit - so have a bit in your contingency fund !

18th November 2009, 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

Yeh, I'm currently running TBs, standalone and Piper BP285s (pretty much same as 708s/ph3s) on standard pistons and valve springs - I would like to think this was between 150-160bhp

With hi comps I'd hope for over 160, but nearer 160 than 170 bhp.

Change to say ph4s and would think nearer 170 if not 170 odd. Will all depend on the exhaust system, tb setup, timing and quality of mapping. But at this stage you really want to think about a clutch to cope, maybe a diff, brakes to cope, oil cooler

is it possible to run ph4s with out tbs

18th November 2009, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickkwak07

is it possible to run ph4s with out tbs

I argue not properly - but before people were arguing yes.

I'm presuming you havnt got hi comp pistons here with cut outs?!

Timing up ph3's is tight enough - ph4's would be impossible to time properly, would end up with cams that arent timed anyway near their optimum so not worth it! Go with ph3's if you want some cams but NOT TB's or hi comps

18th November 2009, 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

I argue not properly - but before people were arguing yes.

I'm presuming you havnt got hi comp pistons here with cut outs?!

Timing up ph3's is tight enough - ph4's would be impossible to time properly, would end up with cams that arent timed anyway near their optimum so not worth it! Go with ph3's if you want some cams but NOT TB's or hi comps

currently haveing ago at rebuilding avts lump its all in parts and got some highcomp pistons just wanting to get the spec before we build the engine(its a trackday project between me and two mates)

18th November 2009, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickkwak07

currently haveing ago at rebuilding avts lump its all in parts and got some highcomp pistons just wanting to get the spec before we build the engine(its a trackday project between me and two mates)

If it's got Hi Comp pistons then ph4's might be a good bet, you'd need uprated valve springs to run them and Tb's to get the most out of them.

If your keeping standard inlet, should get some good results with ph3's/708's

18th November 2009, 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

If it's got Hi Comp pistons then ph4's might be a good bet, you'd need uprated valve springs to run them and Tb's to get the most out of them.

If your keeping standard inlet, should get some good results with ph3's/708's

yea was proberly going to do that any way,still debateing wether to.....
get a bvh
and possibly bike bodies but this is going to be a budget build etc so dont now how far to take it