Gearbox Advice needed for Turbo VTS

22nd November 2009, 22:19

Peeps,

Any of you who have followed the history of my turbo VTS will know its been plagued with gearbox and driveshaft problems for many years. The typical failure mode is the crown-wheel falling off and lots of twisted driveshafts, as the crown slips. About 5 times now Ive re-fitted standard gearboxes (VTS or 1.1) and usually after a few thousand miles, the same problem occurs.

The turbo is currently running about 10psi and I have an AP (twin plate) clutch. Im pretty sure the clutch is partly to blame, as its super severe and simply wont threaten to slip!

I've had a larger turbo sat on a shelf for 2 years and I wont fit it until Ive uprated the transmission.

Please help me to get my car back on the road by giving me some options. I'm not being lazy, but I'm a little out of touch and its gonna be more efficient use of my time to ask you peeps, rather than search for myself (can I say that!?)

So, baring in mind, I dont particularly want to shell out £3k for a transmisison setup, what are my best options?

Has anyone proven a std VTS box and uprated diff to be reliable with 200+bhp, or is the only route uprated box and custom shafts?

If you wouldn't mind also suggesting some companies who can supply the parts I need, I will start to make enquiries

22nd November 2009, 22:27

if you get diff and new shafts then it whould be fine up to bout 280bhp, after that you will start stripping teeth off te gears..

another good option is BE4 gearbox conversion, i know atspeed will do a conversion kit now and a proper one at that.. not cheap though especially driveshafts BUT they so far have proven very very reliable on a few very high power turbo cars.

what tyres will you be using?

22nd November 2009, 22:34

Tyres, Eagle F1's typically or R888's.

Hmm, thinking of this from another angle, how much longer are the shafts for the BE3 setup? Getting custom shafts made up shouldnt be too much of a problem for me (work contacts), but also should consider the wider arches I have fitted.

Will need to read up on the BE4?

22nd November 2009, 22:38

Did GMC not do some sort of attachment/ kit for fitting a BE4 gearbox to a TU lump? Some light reading.

Not sure what driveshaft options you have with the BE4 box. Might be worth looking into some custom shafts and cv joints.

22nd November 2009, 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simo

Tyres, Eagle F1's typically or R888's.

Hmm, thinking of this from another angle, how much longer are the shafts for the BE3 setup? Getting custom shafts made up shouldnt be too much of a problem for me (work contacts), but also should consider the wider arches I have fitted.

Will need to read up on the BE4?

theres a fair bit more to the conversion than you would tipically think.

custom shafts, custom hubs, custom wheel bearings, gear linkages, custom clutch cable, gearbox mounts etc. thats why id seriously consider atspeeds conversion less shafts as you could get them made... this would save grief and the confidence that it wil work is there..

if you are using r888 and over 270bhp id go BE4 if using normal road tyres then quaifed ma box would be good for 300bhp i would of thought.

22nd November 2009, 22:44

If your planning on sticking with the ma box then the GMC strengthening sleeve would be a good call along with a diff and a fully rebuilt box. This should eliminate your crown wheel problem.

If not, as stated the inevitable jump to BE4 is probably the only option without spending a fortune on a sadev or similar.

22nd November 2009, 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeumH

Did GMC not do some sort of attachment/ kit for fitting a BE4 gearbox to a TU lump? Some light reading.

Not sure what driveshaft options you have with the BE4 box. Might be worth looking into some custom shafts and cv joints.

thats an input shaft attachment, the BE4 box has the same diameter input shaft as the MA so essentially its weakpoint.
the good thing about the attachment is that it would cure the input shaft from twisting/snapping but a BIG downside is that you would have to but clutches through gmc and pay lots of moneys....

22nd November 2009, 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by daz_Westcoast

If your planning on sticking with the ma box then the GMC strengthening sleeve would be a good call along with a diff and a fully rebuilt box. This should eliminate your crown wheel problem.

If not, as stated the inevitable jump to BE4 is probably the only option without spending a fortune on a sadev or similar.

sadev would be no good in a boosted application. the sadev's (like on maxi/kit cars) only have about 200lb ft rating wich is childs play for a turbo'd car.

22nd November 2009, 22:51

How low down are you? I was speaking to john once and said being -40mm or more down will = chewed up shafts & boxes.

22nd November 2009, 22:55

Only 40mm...

22nd November 2009, 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygti

sadev would be no good in a boosted application. the sadev's (like on maxi/kit cars) only have about 200lb ft rating wich is childs play for a turbo'd car.

Correct an "off the shelf" sadev wouldnt be an option but im sure for the right ££ they or hewland/quaife/elite etc would build you one. But as we know that WOULD be 15k+

22nd November 2009, 23:09

On a side note how did you find the 1.1 box's holding up compared to the VTS's box's?

24th January 2010, 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hpi_matrix

On a side note how did you find the 1.1 box's holding up compared to the VTS's box's?

The 1.1 boxes seemed to take the stick just the same as the VTS box. As my boxes have always failed in the same way (crown wheel slipping) I got to know the signs and stopped pressing the loud pedal, before killing it. Gone the car home a few times like that

OK Guys - back to the serious stuff now. I NEED to decide which way Im going with this box situation in the next ocuple of weeks. Please can you trusted gearbox builders, who I can make enquiries with.

Typically I get all engine work done at GMC, but with the car not driveable at the moment, that might not be an option for now. Names/links please...

I will giove John at GMC a call to see what the low down is as there are a few other things I could do with getting done around the same time.

24th January 2010, 21:51

i think the quaife diff will probs be the best bet, it wont be masses of custom work, nor will it cost mega money (not saying itl be cheap as we all know they aint) but BE conversions arent cheap either, quiafe and some uprated or custom spec'd drive shafts should be fine dpendant on what power your new turbo will take the car to?

24th January 2010, 22:12

Good to see that you're looking into the long awaited revival Si,

This place will probably be a very good shout. I got my fully reconditioned gearbox from them which cost £300 (a while ago now so may have increased slightly)

http://www.cleckheaton-gearbox-centr...gearboxes.html

They supply a 2 year no quibble warranty with no stated limited milage too.

With the cost of the quaife diff's being around 600-700quid im sure itll be no effort to whip that into the box for you...

"We also modify gearboxes for high performance and specialist vehicles, so whatever your needs just give us a call for a quote"

Hope it helps

24th January 2010, 22:27

raunchz just got his quaife for 450 + vat but cant remember where he said he got it, may be worth pm'ing him as thats a pretty good price IMO gmc charge what? £625?

24th January 2010, 22:37

If you decide to use cleckheaton give me a shout as I'm only 5 mins away from them

24th January 2010, 22:37

Ive always been a little worried that simply bolting in a Quaiffe diff will jsut mean mashing that too. But, as the crown wheel is part of it, I guess that will be uprated in terms of fixings too?

Ive never looked at any pictures of a Quaiffe diff to see the difference

Might get in touch with Quaiffe direct?

24th January 2010, 22:39

si, quaife machine ball bearings into the diff casing to stop the crownwheel spinning so thats not an issue...

the issue is that with turbo torque you will start stripping teeth off gears, but that seems to happen over 280bhp.

24th January 2010, 22:53

THanks for clarifying Dan. Quaiffe could be the best option for now then. I'd like to fit my larger turbo, but Ive been holding off until I got aroud to doing something to make the transmission more reliable.

Simo

24th January 2010, 22:53

if going for a quaife with box being apart why not get everything shot peened? pretty sure somers or sybez had that done on their old saxo/106 and they went fine?

I know Martin tweeqd does box rebuilds and if you can get hold of him mankee is pretty handy to

24th January 2010, 23:02

Direct from Quaife :-

Citroen Saxo MA Quaife ATB Helical LSD differential
Product code: QDF9H
Catalogue Page: 4
Manufacturers: CITROEN
£550.00 (Unit price exc. VAT)

24th January 2010, 23:06

pm raunchz mate he got his cheaper then that (see previous page) but is sending his to quaife it have the crown wheels swapped over iirc?

24th January 2010, 23:10

he payed 450+vat from rally design but but he is not sure if he will have to pay to them to fit it. if you buy from quaife direct they fit it for free.

27th January 2010, 20:51

Reply from Quaife regarding the Diff / crown wheel.

Quote:

Dear Simon,

The ATB will not come with a crown wheel that - will remain standard, we can offer uprated crown wheels but only when fitted with our dog engagement straight cut gearbox kit part number QKE7H see here http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop_categor...tegory_id/1277

The unit does come with a lifetime warranty on any applications with no power limitations our units regularly run on cars over 1000 bhp.Remember that this does not apply to the gears or final drive only the ATB unit.

So, bolting in a tougher diff alone is not going to cure the issue I have had with the last 4 gearboxes - slipping corwn wheel!?? Is this a common problem with 'high' power saxos, or is this just a perculiarity of my engine/clutch setup and the way the power is delivered?

Although I like the sound of a £3.5k dog-box, I dont think my bank manager will!

27th January 2010, 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simo

Reply from Quaife regarding the Diff / crown wheel.

So, bolting in a tougher diff alone is not going to cure the issue I have had with the last 4 gearboxes - slipping corwn wheel!?? Is this a common problem with 'high' power saxos, or is this just a perculiarity of my engine/clutch setup and the way the power is delivered?

Although I like the sound of a £3.5k dog-box, I dont think my bank manager will!

Quaife machine two ball bearings into the crownwheel/diff to stop it spinning. Some people have had the crownwheel partially welded onto the diff. I'm pretty sure the combination of the two would stop the crownwheel spinning on the diff.

If that's the only problem you are having (the crownwheel spinning on the diff) then the standard crownwheel itself sounds fine, it's just you need to 'uprate' how the crownwheel attaches to the diff.

I think the standard fit is simply an interference fit hence the crownwheel spinning with big torque. As soon as it starts to go, the interference fit fails and you lose drive.

27th January 2010, 21:14

Thanks for that - I've considered welding the crown on a number of times. Maybe thats worth a try then.

Having gone through years of trial/error, at this stage I was hoping to learn from you guys' problems/issues, etc rather than the other way round

To date, with my current setup, the only issues I have had have been crown wheels slipping or falling off.

27th January 2010, 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simo

Thanks for that - I've considered welding the crown on a number of times. Maybe thats worth a try then.

Having gone through years of trial/error, at this stage I was hoping to learn from you guys' problems/issues, etc rather than the other way round

To date, with my current setup, the only issues I have had have been crown wheels slipping or falling off.

It would be relatively easy to open the box up, and then stitch weld across the join between the crownwheel and the diff. Would be relatively cheap to do as a first option and I can imagine it would work if the weld's good.

From memory people who have diff'd MA gearboxes don't have a problem with the crownwheel slipping - they have input shaft problems

Maybe you'll just transfer the 'problem' onto another part of the gearbox like the input shaft/driveshafts? So maybe worth saving for a BE conversion? ATSpeed seem to do all the parts for a conversion for a pretty good price tbh
http://106owners.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=133163

27th January 2010, 21:37

Giving up at trying to request my password from 106OC - lol

27th January 2010, 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simo

Giving up at trying to request my password from 106OC - lol

Ah, bugger - I forgot about logging into the premium bit.

It's basically all the parts for a Be conversion (mounts, linkages, clutch cable setup & 1 piece driveshafts) - works out around £1300

27th January 2010, 21:44

you dont really want to be welding the crownwheel on if you can help it... as this makes it much more difficult to use on another gearbox later on.

if you get a quaife diff and get them to machine it on you will NOT have any issues with the crownwheel slipping.

27th January 2010, 22:34

ive seen loads of (and rebuilt over 40 ) MA's that have shit the diff as there the weakest part of the box, all the ones ive fitted ATB's to never have a problem.
i ran a standard MA box with an ATB with 200lbsft for over 10k miles and that was with over 50 launches up the pod and i only ever drove the car hard, the box never went wrong and still lives on in a saxo.
to be honest you would be ok with an ATB in an MA unless you run over 300bhp, if the crown wheel is slipping then as stated above Quaife now pin it with ball bearings (my 1st diff didnt have them but quaife fitted them for free when they realised there was a problem, but that was about 6 years ago)

I only went BE4 cos i knew i could do it cheaply by doing it myself(i like a challenge) and so i could get better ratios for a top speed run.
it can be done alot cheaper than ATspeed but its still not cheap

martin

27th January 2010, 22:36

we sell a full kit for BE4 gearbox conversion into 106/saxo

available with or without custom 1 piece driveshafts

also option for road/race lower torque link. anodised blue alloy with adjustable rose joints.

mount only kit also available. full stainless steel construction.

by full kit we mean EVERYTHING, even every last nut, bolt and washer... gear linkages, modified cluthc pedal and cable assembly, mounts etc.

tested to over 450bhp.

"very impressed with the BE kit.... excellent value for money" - Pieter @ DP-Engineering

we also sell Gripper diffs to suit BE or MA applications.

29th January 2010, 02:01

whats the be4 box from...ima newbie|?

30th January 2010, 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildrenegade

whats the be4 box from...ima newbie|?

picasso or something like that i think

30th January 2010, 20:25

the picasso 1.6 8v runs it but comes fitted with a hydraulic clutch which has to be converted.
the belingo/partner with the 1.6 diesel engines come with the BE4 aswell and these have a clutch cable, you can buy the cable lever and bracket from pug for the partner to convert a picasso one and the bits cost about £30

the gearlinkage can be made useing standard saxo ones with one being shortened and one being lengthened (take 2 mins with a welder)

the mounts can be made quite easily (especially on a saxo/106)

the outer hubs need changing to BE ones but these are too big for a saxo bearing so any machine shop can turn them down on a lath to the correct size to fit in a saxo bearing

the only expensive bit is are the driveshafts but there are loads of comapnys out there that can make them up, you can also get equal length ones if you get the rear mount from the picasso/belingo

ive done mine for under £400, that includes buying the box, fitting xsara vts internals and pugsport grp n mounts

30th January 2010, 20:57

thats pretty impresive research tweeqd, maybe simo should adopt this idea, would you consider doing a convesrion kit to sell? sure theres a market for it lmao, id have one, may look into it for my car depending what power it makes when its finished

30th January 2010, 21:02

i looked in to this ages ago and 1st fitted it in my car 3 years ago but ive had loads going on in my life so not had the time to put the car back on the road, most of the information is in my project thread

i will do a kit but not untill ive tested it in my car as i dont want to sell anything with my name on it unless i know its 100%

30th January 2010, 21:06

agree'd i may ahave another browse of your thread, i re call seeing the be boxes but dont re call much about the conversion? if im gonna spend a bit on a diff i may aswell spend it on a diff to fit the be then i run a much safer trans all together..... all these expensive items, what happened to my budget build lmao

30th January 2010, 21:16

Im interested in the BE conversion, but the AP twin plate clutch I already use was pretty expensive and wouldnt think that would be compatible with the BE?

Still undecided whether to try a beefed up MA, or just go for the BE setup.

30th January 2010, 21:25

BE set up will be head and shoulders better but if your not planning on taking the power massive spec then MA quaife'd should be adequate, but it all depends what power your going up to with the new turbo?? tweeqd has proved it can be done cheap but then your going to need a new clutch again, if it was me id go BE now having seen it can be done for a reasonable price, then youve got scope to take alot more power in the future, could always sell your clutch on here theres a few going boosted atm and i know manC and ben_vts wouldnt mind a good boosted clutch as theyre both having issues with their standard atm

30th January 2010, 21:38

the MA and the BE use the same size spline so you can keep the clutch you have, ive got an AP twin plate lug drive clutch on mine

30th January 2010, 21:55

is that so? problem solved simo

id have thought the BE box would be slightly bigger tbh, looks like a clear cut winner has emerged

31st January 2010, 10:21

shaft's can you use

1st February 2010, 12:31

we also sell custom made driveshafts, they are equal length, and are a DIRECT fit to standard 106/saxo, and retain the ABS.

they come as a complete kit with modified lower carrier and all nuts and bolts.

they are hardened by the same company that mclaren and williams and other top F1 teams use for driveshaft hardening processes.

these are serious bits of kit.

2nd February 2010, 23:21

Thanks for all of your input guys. I'm still chewing this over, but think I'm currently swaying towards sticking with the MA setup and fitting a Quaife Dif' - bonding/BB'ing the crown wheel on. Quite a few people seem to think this should be good for ~300bhp (fly/wheel?) and Im aiming for approx. 300whp. ALL of my boxes have failed because of the crown wheel - Ive never seen any other failure mode.

Unless there are any other strong opinions for/against?

As im planning to re-do pretty much the whole turbo conversion, this option should save me best part of a grand, which I can then steer towards a new management, injectors, clutch, etc, etc.

My shopping list is growing - expect me to pick your brains some more soon

2nd February 2010, 23:32

ive spun a couple crownwheels off diffs (i ended up just welding them on)... but at anything over 250 @ wheels you will simply tear teeth off of the gears on an MA box, particularly 3rd, 4th and 5th gear.

heavier gear oil helps a little, but sooner or later they will go. i would regularly do a box a month.

and this is nothing to do with mechanical sympathy.. change gear and lift off the clutch as smoothly as you like.. these boxes simply cannot handle the torque transmitted through them.

the casings flex and pull the gears apart, and ring the teeth off the gears with no warning... every time you put your foot down you need to have your fingers crossed - will it or wont it go bang.

quaife and other manufacturers make uprated internals for around £2000 region, but they do not gurantee them for over 250bhp... for £2k id want a gurantee!

so this is why i developed the BE kit, to offer a cheap "bolt in" solution to the problem.

i have not suffered any transmission problems since fitment of the BE box - i am running over 400bhp.

2nd February 2010, 23:34

Well, I guess I did ask for strong opinions! Thanks...

I guess I'm back to being unsure then

Any other strong opinions??

3rd February 2010, 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drago

Correct an "off the shelf" sadev wouldnt be an option but im sure for the right ££ they or hewland/quaife/elite etc would build you one. But as we know that WOULD be 15k+

I could always sell you my hewland PCT 6 speed squential with geartronic air paddle shift .
LOL

3rd February 2010, 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simo

I guess I'm back to being unsure then

LOL

Nothing to add other than, very interesting thread - enjoyed reading.

7th February 2010, 22:49

After reading this thread I must say that im probably the most lucky MA-driver in the world. I had 262bhp@flywheel in my 106 XSi turbo and never any gearbox problems. Box was from 206 XSi 16v.

But im sure driving style has much to do with it. I never dumped clutch in 1st gear, taking it easy all the way up to second and then full throttle. I used standard 200mm clutch to, but it started to slip a bit after a while.

Im impressed on how those engines and gearboxes handles the power with all standard parts. I didnt change nothing, just added turbo and fuel system and had fun!

If i ever build another car like the previous one and will have more power, ill choose the BE4-box for sure. Its probably worth the effort.

Cheers from Sweden