Suspension newb looking for better handling and turn in etc

9th December 2009, 11:12

I was wondering if someone could list what upgrades to suspension will improve handling on my car... also what make is best and where to buy? I heard Gmax is one of the best makes?

Everything is standard at the moment

Also do anti roll bars and strut braces affect handling?

It's a B but i assume the same rules will apply to the C

Thanks in advance

9th December 2009, 11:14

get some B6 bilstein shocks with eibach pro springs, get poly bushes set of front and rear anti roll bars, change your torsion bar maybe add toe in at the front for better turn in,
get a camber kit add negative camber on the front a bit, maybe if you can get caster kits do that too, get an LSD be suprised how much that could help.

9th December 2009, 11:19

Ignore the 'It's a B but i assume the same rules will apply to the C' part

9th December 2009, 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byard

Ignore the 'It's a B but i assume the same rules will apply to the C' part

didnt get that bit anyway. but highly recomend B6 shocks and eibach springs

9th December 2009, 11:41

Also heard engine mounts can affect handling is this true?

9th December 2009, 12:10

It all depends onhow big your budget is, what you want the car for etc etc.

Need more ingormation for a good answer, other wise its just listing suspension parts that mean nothing.

9th December 2009, 12:12

And yes engine mounts affect the transfer of weight from the engine but affects the car in a very different way.

9th December 2009, 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aron

It all depends onhow big your budget is, what you want the car for etc etc.

Need more ingormation for a good answer, other wise its just listing suspension parts that mean nothing.

For road use, ideally £500 Max.

9th December 2009, 12:18

£500 is not going to get a massive amount. best to look at is the Apex kit or the billie and faulkner kit from kamracing. Maybe to replace a couple of bushes with left over money but these do next to nothing anyway. Standards are fine if in working condition.

Also Mallyauto85 you want the toe out for turn in.

9th December 2009, 12:20

What does the apex kit consist of? Coilovers or springs and dampers? Is that the best performance/value option?

9th December 2009, 12:23

dampers and springs for the front then dampers for the back. Remember you need to pay for the rear to be lowered seperatley as it is torsion bars

edit, and yes both the apex kit and the billie/faulkner kit are good value for what you get

9th December 2009, 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mallyauto86

get some B6 bilstein shocks with eibach pro springs, get poly bushes set of front and rear anti roll bars, change your torsion bar maybe add toe in at the front for better turn in,
get a camber kit add negative camber on the front a bit, maybe if you can get caster kits do that too, get an LSD be suprised how much that could help.

May aswell get B8s mate. Eibach springs aint even worth getting over standard springs theyre pratically the same LBS.

You cant get Polybush set for the rear ARB. No points in changing the torsion bar if your going for the setup you have quoted on the front.

If your on a budget then id do this:

Apex damper and spring kit
Powerflex lower engine mount
Polybush all mounts and bushes
Tyres
To help with your turn in get a larger rear ARB 24mm off a 106 gti will be the cheapest.

If you got a slightly higher budget then:

Better dampers and springs
GrpN Engine mountings

Slightly higher:

Either custom coilover kit or an off the shelf kit
Larger torsion bars depending on front spring lbs rate

9th December 2009, 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aron

£500 is not going to get a massive amount. best to look at is the Apex kit or the billie and faulkner kit from kamracing. Maybe to replace a couple of bushes with left over money but these do next to nothing anyway. Standards are fine if in working condition.

Also Mallyauto85 you want the toe out for turn in.

dangerous having toe out on FWD mate causes oversteer saxo's are arse happy enough as it is . . . good way of killing yourself youd want toe out at the back not the front. you'l never see a race car with toe out at the front.

Camber and caster are you main ones tbh but your tyre wear will be affected massivly. and yeh depends on your budget if you can afford B8's get them, and the eibachs mite be the same LBS but they mate the bilstein shocks perfectly, they are great for handling also there is a french company that mate shock sets somthing red or rouge paris i dunno il look into it guys.

starting to find out that suspension parts are more widley available in france than over here seems uk is more on performance lol

9th December 2009, 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mallyauto86

dangerous having toe out on FWD mate causes oversteer saxo's are arse happy enough as it is . . . good way of killing yourself youd want toe out at the back not the front. you'l never see a race car with toe out at the front.

Camber and caster are you main ones tbh but your tyre wear will be affected massivly. and yeh depends on your budget if you can afford B8's get them, and the eibachs mite be the same LBS but they mate the bilstein shocks perfectly, they are great for handling also there is a french company that mate shock sets somthing red or rouge paris i dunno il look into it guys.

starting to find out that suspension parts are more widley available in france than over here seems uk is more on performance lol

On track its better to be able to have oversteer than understeer, you cant control understeer in the same way as oversteer. Thats why saxmax cars and other track racing type car have more turn in, obviously it can induce oversteer, but at least you can control it.

9th December 2009, 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by db_sax

May aswell get B8s mate. Eibach springs aint even worth getting over standard springs theyre pratically the same LBS.

You cant get Polybush set for the rear ARB. No points in changing the torsion bar if your going for the setup you have quoted on the front.

If your on a budget then id do this:

Apex damper and spring kit
Powerflex lower engine mount
Polybush all mounts and bushes
Tyres
To help with your turn in get a larger rear ARB 24mm off a 106 gti will be the cheapest.

If you got a slightly higher budget then:

Better dampers and springs
GrpN Engine mountings

Slightly higher:

Either custom coilover kit or an off the shelf kit
Larger torsion bars depending on front spring lbs rate

Thanks

, which shop/site do you recommend to buy from?

9th December 2009, 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by db_sax

On track its better to be able to have oversteer and understeer, you cant control understeer in the same way as oversteer. Thats why saxmax cars and other track racing type car have more turn in, obviously it can induce oversteer, but at least you can control it.

yes you can but having worked with a pro rally team for a while i can tell you i wouldnt recomend this at all,(well not worked but my mate does and he took me to a few got me helping out etc best experiance ive had ever tbh)

there are better ways to have oversteer out of a car and actualy saxo's need to be ballanced they tend to oversteer during breaking wich isnt the best.

a firmer rear suspension setup would suit it better to gain oversteer and minimize understeer, saxo's dont genrally understeer all that much anway unless your hard on the power, the standard setup is pretty good just by adding shocks etc but to gain on this you are looking at having -3 degrees camber on the front and around 2 degrees caster. brake biasis can also play into this, on a brembo 4 pot setup genrally best is to use 60%front to 40 rear.

9th December 2009, 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byard

Thanks

, which shop/site do you recommend to buy from?

Kam Racing have majority of the parts youll need.

http://www.kamracing.co.uk/

http://www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk/

http://www.106parts.com/ (for the Rear ARB)

eBay for some parts aswell.

http://www.camskill.co.uk/

http://www.bakerbm.com/

http://www.spoox.co.uk/catalog/index.php

http://www.apscars.co.uk/

There ya go mate, some links to be getting on with.

9th December 2009, 12:45

i have apex suspension kit £200
grp N engine moutns £120
fully polyrace bushes was about £150.

and im very impressed with how the car handles

got £30 to spare.

9th December 2009, 12:46

Didnt reliase that the 24mm arb where £84.

Purcahsed!!!

9th December 2009, 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankie

i have apex suspension kit £200
grp N engine moutns £120
fully polyrace bushes was about £150.

and im very impressed with how the car handles

got £30 to spare.

£30 to buy some beers, get some bacon butties on the go, and have a fitting session !

9th December 2009, 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankie

didnt reliase that the 24mm arb where £84.

Purcahsed!!!

.

9th December 2009, 12:57

Mally you run toe out on FWD. I know for a fact clio cup cars ran toe out.

9th December 2009, 12:58

Clio 182 Trophy (Standard) Camber Toe Ride Height
Front 0.3 – 0.6 1mm OUT 616 / 604mm to top of arch
Rear 1.4 – 1.6 1mm IN 634 / 610mm to top of arch
Axle weights only – Front 742.5kg, Rear 420kg
(With a 77.5kg Driver) Left Right
Front 365kg 377.5kg
Rear 195kg 205kg

Clio 172 Cup Race Car Camber Toe Ride Height
Front 3.8 – 4.0 1mm OUT 60mm Under Subframe
Rear 2.7 – 2.8 1mm IN 280mm to start of rear arch

(With a 75kg Driver) Left Right
Front 335kg 335kg
Rear 178.5kg 175kg

happy mally, toe out as standard

9th December 2009, 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aron

Clio 182 Trophy (Standard) Camber Toe Ride Height
Front 0.3 0.6 1mm OUT 616 / 604mm to top of arch
Rear 1.4 1.6 1mm IN 634 / 610mm to top of arch
Axle weights only Front 742.5kg, Rear 420kg
(With a 77.5kg Driver) Left Right
Front 365kg 377.5kg
Rear 195kg 205kg

Clio 172 Cup Race Car Camber Toe Ride Height
Front 3.8 4.0 1mm OUT 60mm Under Subframe
Rear 2.7 2.8 1mm IN 280mm to start of rear arch

(With a 75kg Driver) Left Right
Front 335kg 335kg
Rear 178.5kg 175kg

happy mally, toe out as standard

lol wierd i wouldnt do that . . . car was a 205 GTI tho . .

9th December 2009, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aron

Mally you run toe out on FWD. I know for a fact clio cup cars ran toe out.

Its also how the saxmax cars run lol

@Mally, depending on the track they run different lbs springs on one side to the other for added turn in aswell as the ARBS. Say like 260 on the inside then 300 on the outisde.

9th December 2009, 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by db_sax

Its also how the saxmax cars run lol

@Mally, depending on the track they run different lbs springs on one side to the other for added turn in aswell as the ARBS. Say like 260 on the inside then 300 on the outisde.

oh yeh i know that just suprised about the toe out tbh . . .unless ive messed summit up lmfao

9th December 2009, 13:37

i think you have to be honest. toe out will help your turn in. carnt imagine why you would run toe in on track, would like someone to answer it if there is an answer

9th December 2009, 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aron

i think you have to be honest. toe out will help your turn in. carnt imagine why you would run toe in on track, would like someone to answer it if there is an answer

makes the car more stable under breaking and in a strait line more comun on RWD

9th December 2009, 13:54

on RWD i mite understand more but on FWD then its all about toe out.

9th December 2009, 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aron

on RWD i mite understand more but on FWD then its all about toe out.

im gna try it seee what its like tbh

9th December 2009, 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by db_sax

May aswell get B8s mate. Eibach springs aint even worth getting over standard springs theyre pratically the same LBS.

You cant get Polybush set for the rear ARB. No points in changing the torsion bar if your going for the setup you have quoted on the front.

If your on a budget then id do this:

Apex damper and spring kit
Powerflex lower engine mount
Polybush all mounts and bushes
Tyres
To help with your turn in get a larger rear ARB 24mm off a 106 gti will be the cheapest.

If you got a slightly higher budget then:

Better dampers and springs
GrpN Engine mountings

Slightly higher:

Either custom coilover kit or an off the shelf kit
Larger torsion bars depending on front spring lbs rate

Eibachs are about 20% uprated with the pro-kit. They are also better materials and give a better quality ride. Its not a lot but the pro-kit springs are designed to offer an OEM ride with the benefits of running 20mm or so lower.
If you are only going this low then the b6's will work fine, no point in spending extra on b8's.

personally I stay away from antirollbars as i'd rather the rear suspension stay as independent as possible. The larger the antirollbar the more effect one side has on the other. There is no substitute for bigger torsion bars really as these are what upgrade the springrate at the rear.

Kev

10th December 2009, 17:54

mally,no diespect but you seem to not even grasp the basic principles of suspension geometry.

in most situations/or in theory this is true;

front toe out-gives sharper intial steering (turn in) but lacks mid corner grip.
front toe in-gives a less intial turn in but more grip half way through the corner

rear toe in-induces understeer but makes the back end very stable in all parts of the corner and under braking
rear toe out-make the back end of the car very loose and loses stabilty

-camber usually gives more grip whilst + camber takes grip away from them wheels adjusted

caster-less caster gives more intial steering response but less grip through the corner
more caster gives less intial steering but more through the corner

as i say this is theory,it can change slightly depending on what the surface condition is,grip level etc etc etc.

its not just about adding tonnes of one thing,its getting that perfect balance.

10th December 2009, 18:43

Ordered some Apex 25mm lowering springs for my Saxo 1.4i Furio for 60quid(new) which arrived today, but nowhere on the box or springs say how much they will lower the car by so how will i know they will lower the car by front by 25mm?

I can't fit them then wait n see how low she'll go, because then i wont be able to send them back!

If it helps it states 70-40001 VA 231/09 on the box and springs.

Cheers for any help n advice

p.s i don't know anything about lowering springs(which you probs gathered)