saxo vtr turbo

22nd February 2006, 18:42

hi i have a saxo vtr turbo which is boosting at 8 psi at the mo but wont hold its boost can any one help cheers rich

22nd February 2006, 19:50

its probs spiking at 8psi and not set at 8psi. Have you got a boost gauge, what boost is it holding too etc etc.

22nd February 2006, 21:03

yeah ive got a boost gauge and it gets to 8 psi and then looses it more or less straight away could the actuator be weak?

23rd February 2006, 00:29

whats the spec on car mate

23rd February 2006, 00:32

well you havent answered my other questions, turbos always over boost then settle, in 5th gear at say 4k put your foot flat to the floor and thats whatever boost you have, you always lose a little in higher gears but in lower gears the overboost is alot more ie 2nd.

Id say its probs set at .6bar and your overboosting initially to .8 then it settles.

23rd February 2006, 01:09

t3 hybrid turbo,lowcompression head,intercooler,fith injector,greenair filteroil cooler,chrome boost pipes,one off 4 branch manifold,mf2 bar sensor all the bizz really will be turned up to 15 psi shortly

23rd February 2006, 01:27

just wait for your pistons to melt and need an extra injector or injectors

23rd February 2006, 04:27

Have you checked for obvious faults , exhaust blowing ,boost pipes loose etc etc

23rd February 2006, 11:49

if they do forge pistons will have to be bought cituning assure me it will be ok safer with water injection though probably next on the agenda

23rd February 2006, 11:51

yeah mate checked all the obvious cituning contacted td and there gonna send me a stronger actuator then start the diagnosis from there ill sort it eventsally

23rd February 2006, 13:31

its not about safer, standard pistons sooner or later will melt on a charged engine as they are not designed for the heat that boost creates, its only a matter of time, thats why you get forgies. Water injection is to combat high inlet temps, yet again not needed if your cars setup right and your cooling system is setup correct. And remeber water doesnt compress very well = more strain on standard components = bye bye standard pistons, good to see cittuning know what they are talking about lol

23rd February 2006, 18:56

o right but they say this is a tried and tested kit on there own car WITH STANDARD PISTONS no detenation found after the engine was stripped down after 6000 miles thats why they do the head to lower compression cheaper and the same as having pistons

23rd February 2006, 19:21

can i ask a q

how much did the conversion cost you???

dont have to answer if you dont want

23rd February 2006, 19:59

nope he didnt want to

23rd February 2006, 19:59

its not about detanation either, detanation is where the gas and fuel ignite before the spark fires as either the compression is too high (which is what happends on a boosted engine) or the air is too hot and ignites when compressed and the spark flame and ignite flame collide causing a massive bang and also leaving pit marks in the pistons) With correct fueling this doesnt happen, but as said the heat created with boost will eventually destroy the piston because they cant cope with it. Crap example but if you use paper to hold water it will do it for a while until it splits and water leaks through Same with pistons it will take it until its worn then break.

and 6000 miles is hardly proof, 20k and i might consider it.The 6000 miles could of been normal driving with the turbo hardly used rather than 6000 miles of always using the turbo.

Cittuning starts from 2k-4.5k

23rd February 2006, 20:06

well mine cost 5.5k and to be honest more trouble than its worth

24th February 2006, 01:05

and now just to top today off petrol pipe split to fith injector and fuckin g.box fell out not good!

24th February 2006, 01:10

arrrrrrrrgh thats well unlucky mate hope u can get it back on the road soon

24th February 2006, 01:27

sounds like a quality conversion, take it back to them

sorry to hear your having problems

24th February 2006, 11:39

how the hell did your gearbox fall out,i cant believe they did not use forgies,they must be some good mechanics there

.how long you had it in the car

24th February 2006, 11:41

apparantly vts gearboxes are better than the vtr ratty should i change to one of these now the other one is fucked?

24th February 2006, 11:45

ive had the conversion now for near on 2 years but only had the intercooler,fith injector and low comp head for 2 months the g.box mounting bolts have sheard out of the top of the box and smashed the casing with them nice! wat next?????

24th February 2006, 11:48

yes mate get a vts box for the vtr you will tell a difference in acceleration,but i would really start saving up for forgies mate

24th February 2006, 11:51

has your supercharged lump got forgies or doesnt it need them mate?

24th February 2006, 11:54

yes mate it has and it does need them,£500 they are mate,get saving

24th February 2006, 11:58

cheers mate for that i will + ill purchase a vts g.box and why not a performance clutch aswell

24th February 2006, 12:00

did they only put a atandard clutch in aswell mate,this is getting even worse

24th February 2006, 12:07

to start with i had the entry level kit which only runs six psi no intercooler inj etc "low boost kit" now ive had the rest done it will be up to a max of 15 psi min 12psi all this on a standard clutch so now the g.box has gave it a "fuck off" may aswell change it

24th February 2006, 12:50

i broke a brand new std clutch on 6psi within 2 days and i wasnt even hammering it, you wont be able to run more than 6psi without the clutch exploding (and taking the gearbox, radiator, intercooler and anything else that gets in its way when it does) you really need something like the helix or the ap depending on the torque your gonna run, also any pics of said conversion? T3 sounds a tad large for a vtr, must not show boost until 5k or more, and I thought their entry level kit was a T2

24th February 2006, 20:30

yes pics mate im new to this how do i put the pics on?

24th February 2006, 20:40

have them saved somewhere on the net then use <IMG tags, if you upload and tell us where one of us can post for you.

24th February 2006, 20:44

still not sure wat u mean my pics are saved in my pics on my desktop how do i get them on this site? wats img tag?

24th February 2006, 20:50

email them me

jaybiss@sax-p.com

24th February 2006, 20:51

no you need to upload them to the internet, go to somewhere like photobucket.com and create an account, upload the pictures to their and it will tell them how to link them here. If you were a Saxp member you could upload to your own i think (plug plug)

24th February 2006, 20:58

sent them mate

24th February 2006, 21:09

wont lt me open the file mate

add me to msn

jamieb987@hotmail.com

24th February 2006, 21:13

sent to new address mate

24th February 2006, 21:30

24th February 2006, 21:32

good lad bear in mind on these pics no intercooler inj and new head

24th February 2006, 21:59

that also doesnt look like a T3 it looks like a T2 mate. Are there any markings on the side of the turbo?

24th February 2006, 22:03

it probably is then mate i seem to get the impression you are having a dig at me car all the time?

25th February 2006, 01:22

not meaning too! lol sorry if im coming across a bit strong, just the way I am

25th February 2006, 11:50

no worries mate you seem to know wat your on about hopefully my conversion will end up as planned

25th February 2006, 11:58

ratty you big bully

.looks a tidy car mate

25th February 2006, 12:02

cheers pal wouldnt mind goin in yours mate we all that done to it NASTY!

26th February 2006, 02:26

i can assure you ratty is giving you some good advice and help fella.

in my opinion i think your main problem is a lack of comunication between you and cituning, not haveing a dig or owt just think it`ll be best for you to get the car back to them and have a lengthy chat regarding what you`ve got

really not having a go it`s just obvious your knowledge is limited and when dealing with this state of tune you really should atleast know the basics.

all credit to you though as i know when i was not clued up and found myself lumbered with numerous problems there was no way i could`ve posted up for help on forums so sincerely best of luck

26th February 2006, 09:53

thanks mate your right cituning need to get there finger out and sort the fucker

i do know most of the basics but ive put all my money and trust into these guys who should by now have my car running nice and within reason alot quicker if they cant do this then they should tell people instead of getting up peoples hopes i mean im still on standard pistons running 8psi!

26th February 2006, 13:58

with a standard clutch, brakes no doubt & gearbox - well kinda! LOL

take it back ask for a full spec! & say you want it sorted with a week thats wen ull be back, then sneakily come back a few days early to check on the progress & ask to see your car.....

26th February 2006, 16:29

hmm like the sound of that sneaky the brakes arnt standard by the way

clutch is

26th February 2006, 16:56

FEW! at least you can stop, forget changing gear tho dont need that!

well it keeps them on there toes & if your spending thousands of pounds, you want it done professionally!Right!? just remember you can look before you buy in the shops so dont pay up fully untill your happy, that way they will have to do a propper job or face the conciquenses possibly in court if all is done properly! but its up to you.... just kep them on there toes in a polite way.... ask lots of questions about wot they are doing too...

26th February 2006, 17:12

will do if youve seen me pics i dont think theyve done a bad job with the kit and the fitting its just not the result im after and too many probs along the way

26th February 2006, 18:25

it was proberly best to save loads a cash then get all the work done straight away... than stg 1 first etc etc

26th February 2006, 19:00

dosnt always work like that though mate always summet else wants payin bill

s etc

26th February 2006, 19:52

i know i know!!
was it you who robbed that 40million!?? bad ass... LOL

26th February 2006, 20:00

yeah mate dont say owt might catch me lol

28th February 2006, 11:44

vts box on order lads hopefully back on the road soon

3rd March 2006, 21:08

right lads vts box arrived lookin good!

just wondered been pricing up some forge pistons "JE" r these any good or have you lads with charged engines got any advice on wat to buy. these pistons for a full set with rings 490 inc vat does that price sound good? let me know

3rd March 2006, 21:38

ive got omega but JE are fine, used in europe. Just make sure they are low compression forged that way you wont need twin gaskets and can run more boost safely. Paid £540 for mine.

4th March 2006, 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratty

ive got omega but JE are fine, used in europe. Just make sure they are low compression forged that way you wont need twin gaskets and can run more boost safely. Paid £540 for mine.

Can you run Twin Gaskets, or Larger Gasket & Forged Pistons? Or is there no point?

4th March 2006, 02:19

thats a point why would i need twin gaskets just by changing the pistons?

4th March 2006, 05:05

thats what he is saying, get the lower compression pistons and just run a single gasket, your running to gaskets at the moment to space the head up to lower your compression ratio to keep temps down to bearable levels for your standard pistons

4th March 2006, 05:27

listen to Scott, i think you will find in most threads if i dont answer he has, the only reason (and im running twin gaskets and forged low compression pistons) you run twin gaskets is either because at the time you cannot afford forged low compression pistons so £50 is better than ten times that amount, or you use both, I use both as im intending to run silly boost at some time soon so that i can safely run both (silly boost being about 1.5bar or more) where as for most people less than that will give you a great power hike, you can easily achieve 230+ at the wheels with forged low compression pistons and single gasket.

4th March 2006, 13:55

excuse me im running a low comp head with a SINGLE gasket the kit ive got doesnt need 2 gaskets to lower the comp all that work was done on the head

4th March 2006, 15:24

explain....

how did they make your head larger so to speak?

4th March 2006, 15:43

the best way i can is to tell you to go on prima racing under saxo eng conv and a picture of the head is on there

4th March 2006, 16:41

doubt you would be able to tell by looking at picture of head mate

4th March 2006, 16:43

trust me you can

4th March 2006, 17:32

You do know that Prima Racing & Cituning are the same company..?

4th March 2006, 18:24

yeah mate course i do thats where i found my conv on primas web site

4th March 2006, 19:35

nice turbo

4th March 2006, 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheese

nice turbo

thanks mate

4th March 2006, 23:53

the compresion is lowered by increasing the volume of the combustion chamber!.. nuff said!.

5th March 2006, 00:39

which is the same as twin gaskets but probably costs more. do you have a report on how much it lowers the compression by?

5th March 2006, 05:27

No it doesnt cost more like I said if you have read properly the compression now is 8.1, and all the work has been done on the head.
I thought you lads knew what you was on about, obviously not.

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5th March 2006, 15:28

dumper i fully understand it, obviously more than you as to lower to that then the head would have to be modified extensivly and also it would have to have some form of raised part since the std pistons sit flush with the bottom end, and 2x2mm head gaskets (ie the largest of the repair) would give you more than that about 8.4/6:1) hence why im asking can you prove it.

5th March 2006, 16:54

wow, you should always expect problems when you strap a turbo onto a car

, tests the limits of every part on your car LOL and costs a fooking fortune to sort out LOL thats my main concern, but you carnt cut corners as parts will give in eventually. i would get onto cituning and find out exactly what they have done to the car from start to finish. forged pistons are a must if you are intending on running higher boost.

dumper - i would stress to you that Mr Rattys brain is a cataloge of turbo info LOL if he dosnt know the answer for a question regarding forced induction, not many people will.

its a shame you are having probs after spending a wedge on your motor

looks cool tho, im sure it will be a beast when fixed

you will have a big

when driving her LOL

5th March 2006, 17:19

thanks boz now ratty listen to me this is the last time all the work was carried out on the head the combustion chambers in the head have been raised to prove this go on primas web site and you WILL see the mod not bein funny with you just look and all will be shown

5th March 2006, 17:37

IMO i feel you should listen to Ratty! not the other way around, after all you have the issues with your motor & we are trying to help! i understand that the information about your coversion is on that web site but that does not confirm in any way, that is what they have done to your car! i will eat my hat to that statement if you were there all the time they had your car, but, i like my hat & thats y im confident you were not presant during your conversion being done!

Ratty is full of information none of it is bull or woffle. You should appreitate his input and repect him for it.... his own car is a shinning example.... and will be soon enough even more so.... yes ratty its true i think i know your plans...

You have to understanf tho if your cars in individual and things done to it like no other we YES and RATTY need to know... that maybe y he is asking for proof... after all knowlegde is power!! right!?? think i need a geek in my car to go faster?????

sorry to hear she is sick. it will get sorted tho... chin up

5th March 2006, 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by dumper

go on primas web site and you WILL see the mod

Well it doesn't help that the websites fucked and the citroen section has been down for atleast the last 3 days... maybe you should post a link up for us seeing as you can access the site...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dumper

I thought you lads knew what you was on about, obviously not.

dumper Im sorry but you obviously don't have a clue about turbo's, you didn't even know what size turbo you had fitted to the car Then you think modifying a head is cheaper/the same price as using twin head gaskets, if it is then your headwork is shit!

5th March 2006, 18:48

Well it doesn't help that the websites fucked and the citroen section has been down for atleast the last 3 days... bull shit ive just logged straight on to the site looks like maybe it isnt just my "headwork" thats shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

5th March 2006, 19:29

The page cannot be displayed

Thats all I get, but jesus yea Im going to bullshit about not being able to access a site... You may have access but that still doesn't take away from the fact you know nothing about your conversion..
And if you can access the site maybe you want to post up the link to your head? copy and paste the pics?.. how much did you pay for it? Also what extra fueling are you running?

5th March 2006, 19:35

all in all its cost 5.5k for the extra fuel im running a fith injector if i take pics now will you paste them on the site if i send them u?

5th March 2006, 20:08

How much for the head though?

I am running 0.9 bar which is about 12-13psi and I'm having to use a 5th & 6th injector to keep the fueling right.

Yea man if you send me the pics I'll host them and paste them up on the site np

5th March 2006, 20:21

send me your email mate

5th March 2006, 20:28

pm sent

5th March 2006, 20:45

I've got your email but its only got the pics that have already been posted up plus a pic of the cituning setup on a different car.. none of which are of any help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dumper

if i take pics now will you paste..

What happened to the fresh pics? get your arse out of the house and take some pics

lol

5th March 2006, 20:51

5th March 2006, 21:11

Ok I've finally managed to get access to the site

turns out google was sending me to the old site 'http://www.cituning.ltd.uk/' thanks google.. but yea Im still not getting any pics

they just won't display.. will have a try on another pc in a min see if that makes a difference.

I did manage to locate the engine conversion section,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cituning website

Engine Conversion Services
Engine Conversions - Normally Aspirated Cars
Any Citroën engine can benefit from the 'Cituning' magic.

doesn't mention anything about forced induction though..

5th March 2006, 21:19

Ah found it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cituning website

Stage 3 Comprises:
- Entry Level Kit
- 5th Injector Kit Inc. 2 Bar Map Sensor & MF2
- Intercooler
- Water Injection Inc. 2 Stage Boost Controller
- Low Compression Cylinder Head

Also found the price you paid for the head..
£495.00, thats a hell of alot more than the double headgasket would have set you back, though the compression is lower I'll give you that.

5th March 2006, 21:46

5th March 2006, 22:04

Looks good apart from afew bits and pieces,

like wheres the radiator fan? have you got an oil cooler?

The 5th injector angle looks abit dodgy; you need to make sure the fuel is spraying into the inlet manifold and not onto the otherside of the boost pipe.

Personally aswell I would loose the show cage and replace the standard mirrors

5th March 2006, 22:09

the fan has been moved infront of the rad yes the oil cooler is to the side of the rad wat do u mean about the angle?
i like the cage mate and the mirrors but can see your point

5th March 2006, 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by dumper

the fan has been moved infront of the rad yes the oil cooler is to the side of the rad

Ah k thought they may have relocated it there but couldn't see it

and Im glad to hear you've got an oil cooler

Angle wise I mean basically how the injector is mounted and the angle that it is could mean that its not spraying into the inlet manifold properly as it should. Most ppl mount them on the corner so the injectors run parallel with the boost pipe and are directly aiming into the inlet, I'll get a pic of mine to show you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dumper

i like the cage mate and the mirrors but can see your point

Its personally preference man so yea if you like them then keep them

5th March 2006, 22:30

As you can see on mine both the injectors are pointing directly into the inlet, this is so the fuel mixes with the air properly. Where as if you have the injector pointing at the otherside of the boost pipe the fuel doesn't mix aswell and you get access fuel hitting/building up on the boost pipe, which could be potentially dangerous aswell as not being overly efficient.

5th March 2006, 22:56

yours looks cool mate and i see wat u mean by the injectors

6th March 2006, 04:08

some good pics there mate. both cars a looking good

6th March 2006, 22:50

going on what your view is on injector location/position you`d be horified to see where mine is located/positioned mr.wretham,lol

once on boost and it is only then the injector/s will be fireing the air speed(highly technical today,lol) will "pick up" the fuel before it can hit the inside of inlet pipe. my view anyway, be interesting to get few more opinions on this

£495 for head work, be interseting to see what that gets you.

also for 5.5k i`d be expecting something better than low boost.

as i siad and others have too, best thing to do is see the person/busuiness who carried out the work

6th March 2006, 23:11

at high boost injectors position "might" not be a problem but on initial pickup etc if it touches the side of the pipe it wont be in gas form it will become a liquid and the molecules will be broken down instead of mixing with the air and give an uneven fuel matching per cylinder resulting in 1 cylinder or more running lean until it catchs up, and we dont like the word lean do we

7th March 2006, 01:19

lean mean explodeing machine

7th March 2006, 01:50

we all should have one

7th March 2006, 02:08

been on the phone to gm motorsport in scotland he says bring it to him and he will road it and sort it for me cituning fuckin wankers car not goin there no more

7th March 2006, 07:09

Yea man GMC are top notch! Personally if I had the choice between letting Cituning or GMC work on my car there would be no contest.. take it to them and they'll get it sorted

7th March 2006, 12:13

so did you actually ring cittuning to sort it ?

7th March 2006, 17:17

yep but wat this bloke at bmc has told me about cit apparantly alot of people he knows have had exactly the same trouble all theyve done is fob people off. Ratty sorry if ive been funny with you in the past i just wish i had known before hand

7th March 2006, 17:24

well we are all here to help (if if some of us come across wrong in some cases), your in safe hands with GMC, he will probably pull apart your conversion (which is what they tend to do so its nothing personal

) but dont worry about it, hope you get it sorted.

7th March 2006, 17:27

he did mention i wiil need a is it signum? wats that?

7th March 2006, 17:49

sigcon, makes the standard map sensor and ecu think that anythign above 0psi doesnt exist so that you can map the car properly afterwards £300

7th March 2006, 18:07

o right so thats the first thing extra i need then then wat ever else he finds after rolling road test

7th March 2006, 23:47

ive spoken to GMC before, no crap they are the daddies! your enjoy the car much more after theyve worked there magic!

7th March 2006, 23:55

cheers westy nice one

just need a decent clutch then put everything in and have a drive up there

8th March 2006, 13:32

he did also mention lads that the vtr box would be better than the vts but ive bought one now?!

8th March 2006, 13:50

the VTR 5th is longer than the VTS's. thats y its a better option, but to be honest how often will you be doing 130-150mhph! its how quick you get there that counts! so torque is the key shorter ratios is the way to go, you will love it... i miss my close ratio 106rallye box so so much!

VTS box in a turbo is just going to create smile so be carfull....

8th March 2006, 18:43

will do matey thanks for the info

8th March 2006, 19:14

longer is better for a turbo, I was using the vtr box on my vts before switcing to the be3, vts is too short you end up changing gear all the time.

8th March 2006, 19:22

so ratty you would advise the vtr box?

8th March 2006, 20:21

Yea I would advise using a VTR box, this was posted awhile back and ppl were saying to use a VTS box but the reality of things are that the ratios of the VTS box are just to short for a turbo, short ratios are great for N/A cars but not so for forced induction. As Ratty's said you'll end up changing gear every 2secs, where as with the VTR box you have more room to play.

Ratty do you know the ratios for the be3 box off hand?

8th March 2006, 21:37

earbox ratios for the 206GTi, 206GTi180 and 306GTi-6

206GTi
206GTi 180
306GTi-6

Ratio 1:
3.455
2.923
2.923

Ratio 2:
1.870
1.870
1.869

Ratio 3:
1.360
1.360
1.414

Ratio 4:
1.051
1.051
1.148

Ratio 5:
0.861
0.861
0.951

Ratio 6:
n/a n/a
0.795

Reverse:
3.333
2.584
2.584

Final Drive:
3.79
3.948
4.05

8th March 2006, 22:10

ok................?

9th March 2006, 04:22

damn GMC are so far away, i wish i had some place in the midlands which specialises in saxo's aswell, i'v noticed all the best saxo's and saxo related places (tuners) are outside of birmingham/west midlands. *sigh*

9th March 2006, 06:00

Cheers Ratty!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reef

i'v noticed all the best saxo's and saxo related places (tuners) are outside of birmingham/west midlands. *sigh*

Carworx aren't that far from you..

http://www.carworx.net/

9th March 2006, 15:04

im the same im from notts!

11th March 2006, 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratty

longer is better for a turbo, I was using the vtr box on my vts before switcing to the be3, vts is too short you end up changing gear all the time.

A BE3 box isnt that straight forward to fit though is it ratty? personally i like changing gear, so wouldnt mind the VTS box. Its not a massive problem for the moment, id say keep the VTS box for now Pick up a VTR box in the mean time. then sort it when you need to. but thats just me.

11th March 2006, 05:30

me the same westy as long as it dont fuck up like the vtr!?

11th March 2006, 18:19

the vts box will seriously do your head in, vtr is much better as you get more of a feeling for it, no be3 isnt simple. its not hard, but if you dont buy all the bits you have alot of fabricating to do, but coupled with a lsd they are almost indesctructable.

12th March 2006, 01:11

how expensive? if you cant do the work yourself its gonna be expensive right!? But much better if you got the cash & can afford the time, no doubt about that. From what i remember you need bell housing, linkage rods custom made, & a few little extras. MAybe have one made while you have the valvers box in it....

26th June 2023, 17:10

Hii, i have a vtr engine on my saxo yr 98. can i add a turbo on the engine without internal modification. can anyone help me with some ideas please.