140bhp N/A 8v?

8th January 2010, 13:43

Just wondering if this is possible?

i was thinking some insane cam, stand along ECU, lightened flywheel, uprated vernier pully and ported and polished

anything else that i would require to possibly achieve this, more than likely going to strip it out and cage and bucket it as well

cheers

8th January 2010, 13:44

Aye it is probably possible with alot of work, but financially its better all round to go to the dark side and 16v it dude

8th January 2010, 13:45

could not run to insane of a cam as you will get the valves bouncing off the pistons. Could use a set of bodies. head work with ph3 cam and standalone ecu.

8th January 2010, 13:47

may have to look into forged internals.

and if you were to put an insane cam in, with a standalone ecu and increase the rev limiter, you would need to look into getting uprated valve springs.

140 is quite ambicious with a N/A engine.. put i imagine it could be possible.

Joe

8th January 2010, 13:49

not going 16v

want to have an insane 8v haha

dont want bodies due to the cost, i was thinking re-build engine, new seals, bolts, nuts, gaskets etc, recon gearbox or maybe 1.1 gear box, de-restrict engine, fast road cam, stand alone ECU and flywheel etc

just wondering if that would produce 140bhp though

8th January 2010, 13:52

hicomp pistons with cutouts
ph5 cam
bodies
head rebuild
that will get you there easily

8th January 2010, 13:53

It's possible - but you'd probably be looking at some serious dosh.... £1.5k easily. Something like a Kent PT41 (with pocketed pistons if required), ITBs and standalone ECU should see in the region of 140bhp at the fly, I'd imagine. Getting anywhere near that with the standard inlet is a no go imo.

This Rallye made 147bhp at the fly with a Kent cam, ITBs and standalone ECU.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5MlVvlE9AE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARpIUuRo5XI

8th January 2010, 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deeeee

not going 16v

want to have an insane 8v haha

dont want bodies due to the cost, i was thinking re-build engine, new seals, bolts, nuts, gaskets etc, recon gearbox or maybe 1.1 gear box, de-restrict engine, fast road cam, stand alone ECU and flywheel etc

just wondering if that would produce 140bhp though

doubt it, even on a fresh engine, a cam, remap and lightened/balanced flyweel arent going to product 40 odd bhp.

8th January 2010, 13:56

Do you want the car as a daily driver?

If so you won't be able to use a really wild cam or it just wont tick over in traffic, will just stall and be a general pain in the arse.

James

8th January 2010, 13:56

love the noise of TB's but dont like the cost

trying to stay away from them, make it as light as possible, including me loosing weight haha!

8th January 2010, 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by sm02_saxo

doubt it, even on a fresh engine, a cam, remap and lightened/balanced flyweel arent going to product 40 odd bhp.

running 104.3bhp at the wheels atm with standard breather mods, so i think 35.7bhp is possible from them mods

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim-Bob

Do you want the car as a daily driver?

If so you won't be able to use a really wild cam or it just wont tick over in traffic, will just stall and be a general pain in the arse.

James

no it wont be a daily driver, it will be used mainly for track

8th January 2010, 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deeeee

love the noise of TB's but dont like the cost

trying to stay away from them, make it as light as possible, including me loosing weight haha!

140bhp without bodies isn't do-able imo. Feel free to try and prove me wrong though.

A mapped PH3 would give (at best) something like 125bhp at the fly imo. I went with the whole ~PH3 profile cam thing with the 8v engine and it's money wasted imo - gains don't warrant the cash. Wilder cam + ITBs is the way to go.

8th January 2010, 14:02

well CP from manicmotors said he has a piper cam in which he installed to a VTR and he said thats the best he has felt in an 8v.

8th January 2010, 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeumH

140bhp without bodies isn't do-able imo. Feel free to try and prove me wrong though.

A mapped PH3 would give (at best) something like 125bhp at the fly imo. I went with the whole ~PH3 profile cam thing with the 8v engine and it's money wasted imo - gains don't warrant the cash. Wilder cam + ITBs is the way to go.

+1, 140bhp is just a little to ambitious for the mods youve described.

8th January 2010, 14:19

Check out Ryan's VTR progress thread to see how muuch work it takes to get big power (N/A) from an 8v

James

8th January 2010, 14:23

suppose like, just a thought was wondering if its do-able, may attempt it when i have a constant job

if i can get 140bhp at the wheel, get the weight down to 800kg i will be looking at 175ish BHP per tonne

so could upset a few big cars on the track

8th January 2010, 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim-Bob

Check out Ryan's VTR progress thread to see how muuch work it takes to get big power (N/A) from an 8v

James

whats his actual user name, im not sure who ryan is

8th January 2010, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deeeee

whats his actual user name, im not sure who ryan is

Ryan

^Thats his exact user name

James

8th January 2010, 14:30

ah right cheers, was thinking theres a few ryans

8th January 2010, 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim-Bob

Check out Ryan's VTR progress thread to see how muuch work it takes to get big power (N/A) from an 8v

James

yep chuck it in the bin and fit a 16v engine

140 has been done on a stock inlet (8v) by gmc for their race car.

you wont get 140bhp if you dont want to spend money, it aint cheap.

8th January 2010, 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deeeee

suppose like, just a thought was wondering if its do-able, may attempt it when i have a constant job

if i can get 140bhp at the wheel, get the weight down to 800kg i will be looking at 175ish BHP per tonne

so could upset a few big cars on the track

140 at the wheels is not going to happen on 8v NA very easily or be very usable.

8th January 2010, 14:44

My old 1360cc 8V has over what you are looking at but there is no way in hell it would pass a cat test lol

8th January 2010, 14:45

I'd imagine 140bhp, 8v, on single TB would be entertaining to drive to say the least?..

8th January 2010, 14:46

I'm 124bhp from 1.6 8v Rallye engine, 103bhp standard, Piper 270 cam, vernier pulley, Decat,remap.

8th January 2010, 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by AXracing

My old 1360cc 8V has over what you are looking at but there is no way in hell it would pass a cat test lol

did you end up with similar/the same engine as the taiwanese race car. iirc 150+ on stock tb from john.

8th January 2010, 15:01

dont do it.. put a s lump in it! thats the first time i have ever said that but for the money you will spend on the R it will only hurt wen you see other saxos overtaking you. if you want to stay n/a i would defo start with a S-lump

8th January 2010, 15:16

as i said im just looking into this roughly to see if its achievable, dont want to follow the trend by putting an S lump in

just wanted to try something different

8th January 2010, 15:19

I had 127.4 out of my old vtr with a rallye gearbox - now that was fun ( all N/A. )

That was with head work, breathing mods, cams etc

8th January 2010, 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deeeee

as i said im just looking into this roughly to see if its achievable, dont want to follow the trend by putting an S lump in

just wanted to try something different

saxos have been around for 14 years, the reason everyone does 16vs now is because in the day everyone realised modding the 8v was like pissing into the wind.

I know many hardcore 8v people who in the end went 16v wishing they didnt spend a fortune on the 8v initally.

8th January 2010, 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

I know many hardcore 8v people who in the end went 16v wishing they didnt spend a fortune on the 8v initally.

*raises hand*

8th January 2010, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deeeee

running 104.3bhp at the wheels atm with standard breather mods, so i think 35.7bhp is possible from them mods

No, that figure is at the flywheel not the wheels. If you've got 104.3bhp at the wheels thats around 130-140bhp at the fly and you will not get anywhere near that with breathing mods i'm afraid.

Bodies are basically the only way you will ever get close or past 140bhp, there not that much... £500 inlet from Sandy, say £80 for GSXR1000 bodies, standalone ECU (say £500+ for a predator). Then you obviously need cams, headwork, stronger springs. Would be a pretty fruity 8v then though but you are easily looking at 1.5k+, could just buy a VTS engine and you've already got 120.

8th January 2010, 15:28

ah right yeah i suppose, spend a fortune on a R to get the power of an S when you can get an S for like £250-300

was just an idea, but guess not

8th January 2010, 15:29

Nice low mileage JP4 is what my money would be spent on.

8th January 2010, 15:34

whats a JP4? and how much are they going for?

8th January 2010, 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

did you end up with similar/the same engine as the taiwanese race car. iirc 150+ on stock tb from john.

No I was running in a different class. It was very much anything goes as long as you start with a original head and block casting. So it was very different.

8th January 2010, 15:54

If you are not prepared to go with throttlebodies there is no way you can get the car with enough bhp to pass an emissions test.
I'm all for tuning the smaller engines. I am going to build a 220bhp 1.6 engine for my racecar rather than a bigger cc one, but for a road car you might as well save a lot of hassle and start with the better engine.
Now if you just wanted a sporty, fast 8v and was not bothered about bhp then I would recommend other mods. You dont need 16v to have fun.

Kev

9th January 2010, 21:10

There is no way on this earth you are going to achieve that much power if you dont wanna spend much money mate.. you will not get to 140bhp at the wheels in a VTR without spending a hell of a lot of money.. my VTS is running at 143bhp at the flywheel and thats had a ported and polished head- gas blasted, a full custom stainless exhaust with decat and manifold , pipercross induction kit , de-restricted rev limiter... has buckets , interior stripped, with half cage ( which obviously doesn't gain you any power apart from weight ratio) .. & all this is a few grand. Has racing clutch and gearbox. etc etc.. so i think your being a bit ambitious mate for the sake of a couple of hundred quid you may as well do the VTS conversion and you'll instantly gain around 20bhp.

9th January 2010, 21:54

140bhp at the fly is possible on single tb, a guy on rallye reg made 144bhp on 16v bottom end s1 head with catcam 645 cam which is same duration as ph3 so 280deg but just has bit more lift, he had his head port ad polished and gas flowed by qep and used the s1 rallye inlet with dta s40 ecu, so there was a fair bit of money spent but I'd say no more than 2.5k and 144bhp was acheived on matts rollers at qep I think he had it.
He then went on to running a set of gsxr bike bodies and a sandy brown inlet set up, bigger injectors and couple of other items and made 155bhp and was still very drivable. That was on sandy browns rollers too and was timed up etc by him

and another guy has just made 147bhp with a similar set up, only diff is he's not had head work and he's using s2 rallye bottom end, but something is not quite right atm as it's a bit flat top end, but I think that's the rallye that leeumh pasted up but he's using the catcam 645 not a Kent cam

so it is possible and it will be quite drivable cause There not using wild cams, but as people have said it's alot of money to spend on 8v, for what u make. But acheiving 140bhp is very possible I you have the time
and effort and money to do it imo

I have spent a lot on my 8v and I'm making 120bhp unmapped and I had alot of moments when I did wish I had just gone 16v it would have Been half te price and alot easier

ps (sorry if there's any spelling errors I'm on the iPhone lol)

10th January 2010, 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deeeee

running 104.3bhp at the wheels atm with standard breather mods, so i think 35.7bhp is possible from them mods

104.3Bhp at the wheels on a MK1 VTR with breathing mods? Haha. Dude you'd be lucky to get that figure on a VTS with breathing mods, let alone a MK1 VTR.

As has been said, 140Bhp is possible but it's going to require a fair bit of cash.

10th January 2010, 14:58

Hey mate, get a 1.6 rally head and keep the 1.6 bottom end, the pistons are domed on the vtr head and on the ralley they are scooped which to put it is oposite of domed, then get a damsek ecu and a mild cam, then get it ported and polished and your looking at 120 to 130 just from that, then ofcourse you can get a straight through eshaust with decat, this will add 5 - 10 bhp, when they made vtr's they purposly put a exhaust on which was desighned to restrict the engine power, then a cold air induction kit, and last of all go and get it mapped and rolling roaded !! can say 90% sure you have between 130 and 140 (Y)

10th January 2010, 15:03

dont forget lightned flywheel !! haha

10th January 2010, 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Percy01

dont forget lightned flywheel !! haha

Doesn't increase power at all

Quote:

Originally Posted by Percy01

Hey mate, get a 1.6 rally head and keep the 1.6 bottom end, the pistons are domed on the vtr head and on the ralley they are scooped which to put it is oposite of domed, then get a damsek ecu and a mild cam, then get it ported and polished and your looking at 120 to 130 just from that, then ofcourse you can get a straight through eshaust with decat, this will add 5 - 10 bhp, when they made vtr's they purposly put a exhaust on which was desighned to restrict the engine power, then a cold air induction kit, and last of all go and get it mapped and rolling roaded !! can say 90% sure you have between 130 and 140 (Y)

Would be very lucky to see 10bhp, VERY lucky indeed.

All your figures are a little optimistic, on a 90bhp VTR engine (Which is probably closer to 85bhp on average due to age) the mods you listed would be lucky to get 120bhp, let alone 140!

11th January 2010, 00:54

My bad as i was actually asumeing you had the 98 bhp engine ! with the 98bhp engine a friend of mine from merthyr has done exactly what i had stated and has a rolling road paper of 137

11th January 2010, 00:57

lol @ "i dont want boddies because theyre expensive" yet you think 140 from an 8v engine is cheap?

to run a lairy cam (which is needed to acheive 140) you'd need boddies, ph4's for example dont run on stock inlet

11th January 2010, 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtr_chris90

a guy on rallye reg made 144bhp on 16v bottom end s1 head with catcam 645 cam which is same duration as ph3 so 280deg but just has bit more lift, he had his head port ad polished and gas flowed by qep and used the s1 rallye inlet with dta s40 ecu, so there was a fair bit of money spent but I'd say no more than 2.5k and 144bhp was acheived on matts rollers at qep I think he had it.
He then went on to running a set of gsxr bike bodies and a sandy brown inlet set up, bigger injectors and couple of other items and made 155bhp and was still very drivable. That was on sandy browns rollers too and was timed up etc by him

If you're talking about Tommy Assen, it was set up by me, but the figures where taken at Chipwizards both times. A local guy to us did a budget 1.6 8v and it made nearly the same power when I set it up, he had:
1.6 Blacktop bottom end
Shillaber ported head (£400 at the time)
Newman PH2 cam (150)
Raceland exh manifold (£150)
40 DCOE carbs modified to use as TBs on my inlet manifold (about £350)
Secondhand DTA E48 ECU and loom (£400)
Mapping (£300)
All told, less than £2k for about 150bhp and a noise to die for. You'll struggle to repeat that without the right friends and some luck, but it did go to show what good value TU 8v tuning can be. I'm sure some people will hit back by saying "16v and 708s FTW" etc, but I've substantial experience of both and the TB'd 8v is a hell of alot more fun and if it's a 16v conversion, then probably no cheaper.

11th January 2010, 09:10

If you are prepared to go with throttlebodies then its perfectly feasable, and the engine is a little lighter to so you get better handling. 150bhp is certainly enough to have fun in this type of car.

Kev

11th January 2010, 09:22

The videos that are posted of the white Rallye are SJE000 from the RR.