Multiple questions re. suspension

1. Andy_K Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2004 in the garage trying to fix the car Posts: 5882 Mondeo st tdci & Supercharged vts

   #1 15th January 2010, 09:48

   I am looking at upgrading the suspension on my saxo over the next couple of weeks/months. I have a set of gaz coilovers on their way for the front, which come with 300lb springs. Obviously these are pretty hard, so will probably replace them with some slightly softer ones, 250lb perhaps?
   
   Anyway, I currently have Pugsport Group N rubber top mounts. Will these be ok to use with stiff coilovers, or should I be looking at solid mounts. The strut tops are reinforced btw. What are the advantages of using solid mounts over rubber? And if I were to use Compbrake mounts, for example, have they now resolved the fitment issues? I also hear that they may have issues with the longevity of the bearings in some early versions?
   
   At the rear, I was thinking of going for 24mm arb. Is there any difference between the 106 Gti one and the Pugsport, to justify the price difference between the two?
   
   Also torsion bars. I was thinking 21mm or 22mm bars. There is a company advertising on ebay who will manufacture a pair of bars to fit to what ever spec you wish. My basic question here is: Has anyone used any bars other than the Pugsport ones? Is a bar a bar, or are Pugsport ones in anyway superior/other ones inferior?
   
   Sorry about the long read. Any help/advice will be much appreciated.
   
   Side note, Powerflex fushes are fitted all round, Gaz dampers will be fitted to rear to match the coilovers, and the car will be mainly road use, but don't mind a hard ride and would like the option of using the car on track if I wish to do so in the future.
2. Sparco_Tom Saxperience Addict Joined: Jan 2007 Aylesbury, Bucks Posts: 12836 Yeaaahh Fiesta

   #2 15th January 2010, 11:19

   personally if the car is going to live its life on the road i would use standard torsion bars with a gti arb.
   Also you would be better will 200lbs springs on the front. Anything more will just be too hard for the road
   These custom torsion bars, depends what grade materials are used how they are made etc.
   Obviously the pugsports have been designed tested and made for our cars. Rather than just knocked together quickly for a few quid

   1 user thanked this post: Andy_K
3. Aron Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Feb 2007 Nuneaton Posts: 3554 EP3 Civic

   #3 15th January 2010, 11:33

   To be honest i dont think 300 is too hard for the road. You will be surprised with how it feels espically considering the extra weight you have on the car(engine wise/ sure you have a cage aswell) Mate runs 250lbs on his rallye and it feels fine. Feels brilliant in the corners.
   
   On the rear it all depends on person preference. I think 24mm ARB with 21mm bars would be good if you push the car a little and very good on track but if your not going to push on the road then stay with standards.

   1 user thanked this post: Andy_K
4. Andy_K Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2004 in the garage trying to fix the car Posts: 5882 Mondeo st tdci & Supercharged vts

   #4 15th January 2010, 20:02

   Thanks for the advice.
   
   I do enjoy a good drive out on a weekend, and with the roads round here its rude not to!
   I think with the springs I'll try the 300lbs ones that come with the kit, can always change later if I can't live with the hard ride.
   
   And I'll keep a look out for a Gti arb. And 21mm bars for the rear.
   
   What about the top mounts? Any benefit of solids over Hard rubber?
5. raunchz Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R

   #5 15th January 2010, 20:05

   Im going to be going with:
   
   21mm bars
   24mm arb
   bilstine group n's
   250lb springs on the front
   
   I'm hoping the front isn't too hard on the road - only time will tell tbh
6. Andy_K Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2004 in the garage trying to fix the car Posts: 5882 Mondeo st tdci & Supercharged vts

   #6 15th January 2010, 20:11

   Thats why I'm keeping an eye on your thread Ross
   But I suppose yours is a daily driver as well so better to be comfy, where as mine is only for weekend fun so a hard ride isn't so bad
7. saxo_ron Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jun 2007 Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 3017 Honda DC5, Gruppe M and j's racing

   #7 15th January 2010, 20:53

   Andy I have the torsion bars of jill smith, machined up by her hubby. 21mm bars and has made a very positive difference to the plantedness (made up word) of the rear of my car. Feels a good match to the 180lb springs up front.
   
   they were fitted by manic motors and he said they were very well machined and fitted no problems.
8. raunchz Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R

   #8 15th January 2010, 20:54

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Andy_K Thats why I'm keeping an eye on your thread Ross But I suppose yours is a daily driver as well so better to be comfy, where as mine is only for weekend fun so a hard ride isn't so bad

   I might get a chance to put the suspension bits on next week fingers crossed the car is running well - the bars are definitely going on.
   
   So will either be 21m bars, 24mm arb with 40mm GMC springs or 250lb ones ! Will keep my thread updated !
9. Andy_K Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2004 in the garage trying to fix the car Posts: 5882 Mondeo st tdci & Supercharged vts

   #9 15th January 2010, 21:01

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by saxo_ron Andy I have the torsion bars of jill smith, machined up by her hubby. 21mm bars and has made a very positive difference to the plantedness (made up word) of the rear of my car. Feels a good match to the 180lb springs up front. they were fitted by manic motors and he said they were very well machined and fitted no problems.

   Jill Smith - is that the ones on ebay? Good to know they are decent quality, given the price. "Plantedness" Perfect word imo
   
   

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by raunchz I might get a chance to put the suspension bits on next week fingers crossed the car is running well - the bars are definitely going on. So will either be 21m bars, 24mm arb with 40mm GMC springs or 250lb ones ! Will keep my thread updated !

   I'll keep an eye out. Hopefully the coilovers will arrive tommorrow anyway, and will look around for the rest of the bits
10. saxo_ron Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jun 2007 Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 3017 Honda DC5, Gruppe M and j's racing

    #10 15th January 2010, 21:04

    Yeah Andy theyre the ones off ebay. Was the only way I could describe the difference - plantedness
11. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #11 15th January 2010, 21:06

    anyone know where to get a decent gti rear arb cheap? wanting one for mine? tried a few places but no luck, also a price? not sure what they go for tbh?
12. saxo_ron Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jun 2007 Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 3017 Honda DC5, Gruppe M and j's racing

    #12 15th January 2010, 21:09

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by blackie_2k5 anyone know where to get a decent gti rear arb cheap? wanting one for mine? tried a few places but no luck, also a price? not sure what they go for tbh?

    I may know of one, will ask the question and let you know
13. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #13 15th January 2010, 21:12

    cheers mate, sorry for the hi-jack andy, but theres some good info in here so thought it'd be a good thread archived
14. raunchz Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R

    #14 15th January 2010, 21:22

    http://www.106parts.com/s2/page1.php...=210&part=7613
    
    ^ new

    1 user thanked this post: blackie_2k5
15. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #15 15th January 2010, 21:25

    cheers dude, looking for a second hand ideally as the cars costing a fortune lmao but thats good if i cant find one
16. Andy_K Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2004 in the garage trying to fix the car Posts: 5882 Mondeo st tdci & Supercharged vts

    #16 15th January 2010, 21:32

    Beaten too it lol. Was gonna post the link to 106parts!
17. raunchz Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R

    #17 15th January 2010, 21:48

    I don't know how relevant it is, but would you not want maybe some softer springs at the front (relative) to aid getting the power down with the diff. on the roads ?
    
    So might be worth going softer as opposed to harder? Suppose the best means is to just experiment when the car's built! I suppose with coil overs the springs aren't too expensive so easy to swap the mover.
18. Aron Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Feb 2007 Nuneaton Posts: 3554 EP3 Civic

    #18 15th January 2010, 22:08

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Andy_K What about the top mounts? Any benefit of solids over Hard rubber?

    In my opinion no. Unless you going for the likes of AST's so you can adjust then no. A set of group N's will be fine. Will help take away a bit of the bump steer aswell. Compbrakes are a little poor to be honest. Waste of money.
    
    

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by raunchz Im going to be going with: 21mm bars 24mm arb bilstine group n's 250lb springs on the front I'm hoping the front isn't too hard on the road - only time will tell tbh

    In theroy the group N's are only good for 200lb. Pugsports are better for higher then 200. Can still use the Bilsteins but not the best.
19. Olly Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Meerkat Harborough Posts: 2638 Saxo vtr mk 2

    #19 15th January 2010, 22:13

    For a start, I dont 'think' the gaz dampers are suitable with a lower spring rate than supplied 300/325 or whatever they are, However if you fancy a swap i have some 250lb 8" ones ill swap for a higher spring rate/similar length. Are yours the gold ones?
    
    The Rubber mounts you have will be fine! Solid will make a little difference, but the only 'quality' One available is the ast set. Which is v expensive if its something you dont necessarily want/need. Compbrake ones dont fit, The adjustable eccentric ones certainly dont (well only 2 bolts) and the fixed ones require a bit of altering....
    
    If your going to buy torsion bars then id look at 21/21.5mm ones! But thats just me, Depends how tail happy you want the car etc...Ideally its something you want to work out properly for the car not just guess..I Am interested at what people think of the ebay bars too, Is ti the same guy/place that was selling them on 106 owners iirc?
20. Aron Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Feb 2007 Nuneaton Posts: 3554 EP3 Civic

    #20 15th January 2010, 22:24

    Personaly with the bars i would only run the pugsports. Its just personal feeling as its the main aspect of the rear suspension and with the pugsport you know what you are buying. With the ebay its a random bloke machine bars from what maybe cheap poor quality material compared. If you want to upgrade send the money wisely and not try to just save money for the sake of it.
21. Andy_K Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2004 in the garage trying to fix the car Posts: 5882 Mondeo st tdci & Supercharged vts

    #21 15th January 2010, 22:36

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by raunchz I don't know how relevant it is, but would you not want maybe some softer springs at the front (relative) to aid getting the power down with the diff. on the roads ? So might be worth going softer as opposed to harder? Suppose the best means is to just experiment when the car's built! I suppose with coil overs the springs aren't too expensive so easy to swap the mover.

    Yeah, springs are fairly cheap so easy to change round later. Will have a play round I think to find the right setup
    
    

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Aron In my opinion no. Unless you going for the likes of AST's so you can adjust then no. A set of group N's will be fine. Will help take away a bit of the bump steer aswell. Compbrakes are a little poor to be honest. Waste of money.

    Thanks mate. Cant stretch to AST's at the minute, so will keep the grp N's on there. HAve heard of the quality (lack of) from the Compbrake units lol.
    
    

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Olly For a start, I dont 'think' the gaz dampers are suitable with a lower spring rate than supplied 300/325 or whatever they are, However if you fancy a swap i have some 250lb 8" ones ill swap for a higher spring rate/similar length. Are yours the gold ones? The Rubber mounts you have will be fine! Solid will make a little difference, but the only 'quality' One available is the ast set. Which is v expensive if its something you dont necessarily want/need. Compbrake ones dont fit, The adjustable eccentric ones certainly dont (well only 2 bolts) and the fixed ones require a bit of altering.... If your going to buy torsion bars then id look at 21/21.5mm ones! But thats just me, Depends how tail happy you want the car etc...Ideally its something you want to work out properly for the car not just guess..I Am interested at what people think of the ebay bars too, Is ti the same guy/place that was selling them on 106 owners iirc?

    Mine are the Gaz GHA347 (These) - dont know if they are the 'gold' ones or not!! I'll see how long the springs are when they arrive, but maybe I'll just fit them for now and see what they are like.
    
    The fixed Compbrake mounts just need a few bits 'adjusting' to fit, no? Happy to do this, but only if there is a definate benefit to using them. If there isn't, then its £100 I dont need to spend
    
    Dont want tail happyness reallly, just want a balanced setup that feels good on the road, but is also firm enough for a bit of light track use here and there (maybe)
    
    Thanks for all the advice so far guys btw. Some really useful stuff being posted
22. Olly Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Meerkat Harborough Posts: 2638 Saxo vtr mk 2

    #22 15th January 2010, 22:50

    This is the Gaz Gold Kit
    
    Like you say, Fit the coilovers as they are, Standard bars and see how you like it! maybe try someone elses car to see if you like that setup...
    
    I wouldnt buy the compbrake mounts, good point by aron, would buy solid for the adjustability, But there not worth £100 over what you have already.
    
    Standard bars for a start imo. What i am going to try anyway.
    
    
    Point taken aron, agree with you on that....
23. Andy_K Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2004 in the garage trying to fix the car Posts: 5882 Mondeo st tdci & Supercharged vts

    #23 15th January 2010, 22:57

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Olly This is the Gaz Gold Kit Like you say, Fit the coilovers as they are, Standard bars and see how you like it! maybe try someone elses car to see if you like that setup... I wouldnt buy the compbrake mounts, good point by aron, would buy solid for the adjustability, But there not worth £100 over what you have already. Standard bars for a start imo. What i am going to try anyway. Point taken aron, agree with you on that....

    Cheers olly. Those ones are a bit over my budget at the minute lol.
    
    Don't know anyone round here with a saxo anymore lol, let along one with a decent suspension setup Will just keep an eye out for some bars and see if any come up before the car goes back on teh road, otherwise keep standards for now. Will pop the arb on though as they're not too much ££'s.
24. saxo_ron Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jun 2007 Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 3017 Honda DC5, Gruppe M and j's racing

    #24 16th January 2010, 08:01

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by blackie_2k5 cheers mate, sorry for the hi-jack andy, but theres some good info in here so thought it'd be a good thread archived

    Blackie pm jim333 about a rear arb