Engine wont fire...Update post 17

20th February 2010, 18:11

Im stumped on this one..

The car is a VTS, it had its VTS engine removed, then replaced with a new VTS engine.

Only things that were chanegd was the Engine and Loom. Kept the same ECU and immobilisor etcc.

The ECU makes a wierd clicking that i havnt heard before and the starter motor engages, fuel pumps through.

I had a spare VTS unlocked ECU, so we unplugged the imobilisor and plugged in my ECU and the same happended again...but i think it may have locked up. The ECU light flashes on the dash, but its not a on..off.on..off like an airbag one, its more like a dim light on n off at the same rythem as the ECU making its clicking noise.

On the VTS we couldnt find the typical black box at all, literally not there at all, there was the alarm box with the brown and white plugs, but thats nothing to do with the imobilisor is it?

The box we unplugged was mounted on a black plate and the box is white, the plug on it was black taped on to secure it

, the wires comin from it split in the loom to engine and ignition, so i thought this must be the immobilsor box. Also the pins on the connection are labelled 1 to 10 i think it was.

Possibilities i THINK could be the problem:

ECU locked up (but why would the original not work with its own imob box?)
Earth missing from coilpack loom IF there is one?

Im gonna see if theres any advise on here, if not, tomorrow im checking for earths and il be checking coil pack with Volt meter...would there be any current though if the ECU is locked?

Il upload the video tonight.

But in the time being, any suggestions?

20th February 2010, 18:15

Could be earth related, When my battery died something made a clicking noise in the bay.

20th February 2010, 18:21

if the lights only dim it sounds very much elec related, earth as above is most obvious check, you sure you have EVERYTHING plugged back in and in the right places?

20th February 2010, 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

Could be earth related, When my battery died something made a clicking noise in the bay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

if the lights only dim it sounds very much elec related, earth as above is most obvious check, you sure you have EVERYTHING plugged back in and in the right places?

The engine and loom came connected.

So the only earth i had to fit was the one from, the negative mini loom.

Which other earths are there that aint on the engine or gearbox?

Everything has been refitted, triple checked. Compared everything to my car aswell to make sure things are right.

The only area im not sure about is round the back of the block, obviously couse i cant see it from above the engine. All sensors are definatly connected. So the only possible unconnected part would be an earth.

Hmmm. Just need to know what earths there are. Apart from the one on top of the gearbox.

20th February 2010, 18:41

try adding a couple in mate, anywhere you can get a good earth from, if youve got nothing to use as an erath just try a set of jump leads, may sound silly but have you got a decent battery on there? hasnt gone flat? is the starter actually turning?

20th February 2010, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

try adding a couple in mate, anywhere you can get a good earth from, if youve got nothing to use as an erath just try a set of jump leads, may sound silly but have you got a decent battery on there? hasnt gone flat? is the starter actually turning?

Starter is definatly turning. The engine runs off the starter, but dosent fire, it dosent even choke or splutter as though its low on fuel. So i guess theres no spark at all. Unless its flooded, which will be another check tomorrow.

His battery had gone dead, so we used mine, its definatly a good battery.

How do i add a couple of earths? I know where to earth to, but where do i start the earth?

The thing that is confusing me is like ive said it wont fire at all. The ECU clicks, and only runs off the starter motor. All the symptoms of Imobilisor. But it cant be that as the Original ECU and Black Box were left together untouched. Then an unlocked ECU and the black box disconnected, and the exact same clicking noise..which could lead to an earth?

20th February 2010, 18:47

Also, fuel pressure had built up considerably when we disconnected the fuel line. Then we left it disconnected and fuel was definatly being pumped through. Which contradicts a imob problem.

20th February 2010, 18:53

the imbo doesnt stop the fuel pump.

Sounds earth related to me though. Its probably not the ecu thats clicking but the relay under it

20th February 2010, 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanmt

the imbo doesnt stop the fuel pump.

Sounds earth related to me though. Its probably not the ecu thats clicking but the relay under it

Ahh i read quite a few saying it prevent it from pumpin but allows to prime.

Thats an ignition relay beneath the ECU aint it? Well whatever it is, its the same one from the old engine and not this new one, if that makes any difference?

Alot pointing at the earths though.

20th February 2010, 19:24

Check the two earths on the gearbox are good and check the main battery negative ground is earthed on the chassis well.
Might be worth going back to the old loom as it might not match up correctly

20th February 2010, 19:33

Have checked to see if you are getting a spark? So fuel is been pumped though then? Have you checked the fuel cut off swtich?

20th February 2010, 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparco_Tom

Check the two earths on the gearbox are good and check the main battery negative ground is earthed on the chassis well.
Might be worth going back to the old loom as it might not match up correctly

Got to be earth problem then, as with the unlocked ECU and what we assume the imob box disconnected it was the same problem.

In fact its all just made sense. The Relay under the ECU is ignition timings or relay or somthing right? So that links with the Coilpack which isnt sparking etc!

Many poeple saying the clicking noise is bad battery or Earth. Battery is definatly fine, so it has to be an earth.

So just to confirm...how many earths are there?

We only had one to connect on top of the gearbox, but might move that elsewhere to the chassis to make sure its a good earth.

20th February 2010, 20:06

If you have two engines try swapping the multi-function relay from the 'good one'. Thats the relay that sits beneath the ecu.

I seem to remember the wiring from this relay runs directly to the fuse box on the passenger side. Might be worth while checking connections there also. Isnt there an earth beneath the ecu also - near headlamp?

20th February 2010, 20:14

im with tom mate, are the engines both the same year? maybe a prob with the new loom, if the old one was running fine you may have alot less trouble swapping back to that... then you know your not fault finding on a dodgey loom, on the gearbox earth your best leaving that where it is but be sure to check its not corroded/rusty or dirty.

20th February 2010, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by benwh555

Have checked to see if you are getting a spark? So fuel is been pumped though then? Have you checked the fuel cut off swtich?

Sorry didnt see this before. I took the coilpack off with spark plugs plugged in and there was no spark on any when it was in the air!

Furl cut off ive pressed a few times but no changes AT ALL which is wierd, never made any difference, ive checked connection too on that.

Yes fuel is pumped though. I think its an earth though unless you got another idea?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simo

If you have two engines try swapping the multi-function relay from the 'good one'. Thats the relay that sits beneath the ecu.

I seem to remember the wiring from this relay runs directly to the fuse box on the passenger side. Might be worth while checking connections there also. Isnt there an earth beneath the ecu also - near headlamp?

That would be a problem as the one thats on now (and clicking) is the original one from the previous engine. Triple checked connection on it too and also the fuses over the other side of the engine, on the gearbox side. Compared them to my engine and theyre setup the same.

These earths are gonna be bastards tomorrow. Not knowing where they are for definate.

So far:

2 x gearbox
1 x near headlamp?

Already checked the positives Earth on the chassis near the interior to engine loom plug and thats fine, although i might clean it up tomorrow.

Thanks fo the suggestions so far guys!

20th February 2010, 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

im with tom mate, are the engines both the same year? maybe a prob with the new loom, if the old one was running fine you may have alot less trouble swapping back to that... then you know your not fault finding on a dodgey loom, on the gearbox earth your best leaving that where it is but be sure to check its not corroded/rusty or dirty.

Its possible its a dodgy loom tbh, i cant iradicate that possibility.

I can iradicate the looms not being suited to the ECU though. As the spare ECU i have which is unlocked is from the engine we have fitted. Imob box was disconnected this time we fitted the unlocked ECU btw.

21st February 2010, 20:05

Update:

Ok managed to get the Relay to stop clicking by finding the other earth.

Then we had the problem that the starter motor wasnt getting any power. Thought it might have been the solanoid on there, but naaa. Then worked out that the earth wasnt on the gearbox making a circuit.

Still though the engine wont fire. No spark to the plugs, possible coil pack? Ive got a spare one so again a job for tomorrow.

Heres a video, showing the dash lights and no spark, but showing it cranks over:

When the engine cranking the ECU light remains on solid, it dosent flash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k10inIMcen0

21st February 2010, 20:20

I cant remember 100% the wiring to the coilpack, but would think the wires in the multiplug do not earth the plugs at all.

To generate a spark you will need to earth the metal threaded section of the plugs against the chassis, or similar. Anyone else in agreement?

21st February 2010, 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simo

I cant remember 100% the wiring to the coilpack, but would think the wires in the multiplug do not earth the plugs at all.

To generate a spark you will need to earth the metal threaded section of the plugs against the chassis, or similar. Anyone else in agreement?

It makes sense yeh, we've now got all the earths properly earthed from the loom. The only thing disconnected is that small box thing with hardly any wire on which comes out of the coilpack. That isnt an earth aswell is it?

I tried just pushing it to another earthing point but it didnt make any difference, although it wasnt a proper connection just a corner to some bare wires on a temp earth circuit ive made.

21st February 2010, 23:47

Tiny box thing? That could be a signal surpressor and if it is, it wont make any difference to the car starting.

If you know you have fuel, and the engine is turning over, your only missing a spark. Rest the plug(s) on the chassis/manifold, anything earthed and see what happens.

I guess youve tried putting everything back together since fixing the earths? Still not firing?

21st February 2010, 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simo

Tiny box thing? That could be a signal surpressor and if it is, it wont make any difference to the car starting.

If you know you have fuel, and the engine is turning over, your only missing a spark. Rest the plug(s) on the chassis/manifold, anything earthed and see what happens.

I guess youve tried putting everything back together since fixing the earths? Still not firing?

Yeh that tiny box thing, i thought it was for preventing that noise you get on the radio as the engine revs.

Yep, definatly have fuel as when we undid the fuel feed it had pressure built up, also tried starting it with the fuel feed disconnected and it pumped through.

We've checked the loom for any wires coming off it and if theyre connected...all ok. Checked connections on the various componants. Cleaned and sanded a few earthed just to make sure aswell.

Im still thinking an imob problem, but it cant be possible. Original ECU with its paired imob box. Also unlocked ECU with imob box disconnected, both the same outcome

Il try what you said though with the spark plugs. So if i have the coilpack out with the plugs in then just rest them on gearbox etc to see if they spark right?

22nd February 2010, 00:01

Been a while since ive used the std immobiliser, but would think that if youre getting fuel and the engine is turning over, its not immobilised.

I would think resting one/some/all of the plugs against an earthed bit of metal anywhere on the car would give you the earth you need to spark, if the coil is delivering the signal to spark.

22nd February 2010, 00:09

Ok niceone il try this aswell tomorrow.

What if it dosent spark lol

22nd February 2010, 00:33

To clear it up, even if the ecu is locked you get
- pump priming
- power to the coilpack
- power to the injectors
- ecu light on

what you dont get is
- feed to the injectors
- feed to the coilpack.

22nd February 2010, 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanmt

To clear it up, even if the ecu is locked you get
- pump priming
- power to the coilpack
- power to the injectors
- ecu light on

what you dont get is
- feed to the injectors
- feed to the coilpack.

Whats the difference? Just power then the coilpack being told how to operate?

22nd February 2010, 10:10

coilpack has a +ve power wire then 2 negative switching wires which are the feed from the ecu to tell it when to fire.

22nd February 2010, 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanmt

coilpack has a +ve power wire then 2 negative switching wires which are the feed from the ecu to tell it when to fire.

Ok i can check the positive for power then, and also try earthing the spark plugs.

If theres power but no feed then its definatly imob problems.

If an ECU has a differnt map on to standard but then locked, once its unlocked it will still have the new map on the ECU right? Its a Single plug, magnetti marelli.

22nd February 2010, 18:06

May sound stupid, but have you checked crank sensor or tried bumping it?

22nd February 2010, 18:15

Havnt tried bumping it as the driveshafts aint in yet, didnt want to go through the effort of fitting the shafts with fresh Gbox oil if we had to pull the engine out again.

Havnt checked the Crank position sensor though. Will be worth checking, unplug and replug i guess though.

Thanks for the input.

23rd February 2010, 15:16

All you need to check for a spark is to take the coilpack off and take the plugs out the block (as you have done already) then put a plug in the coilpack at a time (easier to identify them sparking or not), a suitable earthing point is the cam covers, and get someone to turn the engine (only needs a quick turn). So if there is no spark, then check the condition of the wiring to the coil pack, the coil pack its self and the plugs. If you know someone with a working engine and can swap parts for testing that would be ideal as you know they work. Remember even if you fit a new part it could still be faulty. And as already suggested it could be the crank sensor.

23rd February 2010, 15:24

Wont have a chance to try anything till the weekend now.

Il try the earthing of the spark plug.
Got a spare working Coilpack.
If theres a spark then its earth again. If not, il check +ve on the plug to the coilpack. If not spark but +ve then it will be imob.

23rd February 2010, 17:00

Bear in mind, i had my Clio drop to 3 cylinders, had each plug out, checked to see if all were sparking which they were, put them back in, still ran on 3, put a new set of plugs in and it was fine, so checking you have a spark is not always a sure fire way to see if the plugs are ok

i thionk it sounds like an earth problem, i would go over every earth as meticulous as you can

23rd February 2010, 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ_16v

Bear in mind, i had my Clio drop to 3 cylinders, had each plug out, checked to see if all were sparking which they were, put them back in, still ran on 3, put a new set of plugs in and it was fine, so checking you have a spark is not always a sure fire way to see if the plugs are ok

i thionk it sounds like an earth problem, i would go over every earth as meticulous as you can

Thanks for your input and readin through the thread. Could also be injectors too

list will be endless soon.

23rd February 2010, 17:17

I doubt its injectors them selfs mate, as all4 being faulty at once is unlikely, did you say you have fuel to the rail? Does it smell of fuel when cranking over?

When my friend and i converted his Sierra XR4x4 Twin turbo to new management, it wouldnt start for eges and we ended up drowning the plugs, chucked in a different set of plugs and it fired, so may be worth looking it if your getting fuel and spark

23rd February 2010, 17:18

Go i need to stop rushing when typing, that looks terrible! lol

23rd February 2010, 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ_16v

I doubt its injectors them selfs mate, as all4 being faulty at once is unlikely, did you say you have fuel to the rail? Does it smell of fuel when cranking over?

When my friend and i converted his Sierra XR4x4 Twin turbo to new management, it wouldnt start for eges and we ended up drowning the plugs, chucked in a different set of plugs and it fired, so may be worth looking it if your getting fuel and spark

I meant it could be injectors as in not having any input from the ECU on what to do. Definatly fuel is being fed, i disconnected the fuel feed and alot of pressure had built up, this is somthing else which makes me think the injectors aint being told what to do. Also ran it with the fuel disconnected and it pumped through. Nightmare now tbh lol

23rd February 2010, 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by db_sax

Yeh that tiny box thing, i thought it was for preventing that noise you get on the radio as the engine revs.

Yep, definatly have fuel as when we undid the fuel feed it had pressure built up, also tried starting it with the fuel feed disconnected and it pumped through.

We've checked the loom for any wires coming off it and if theyre connected...all ok. Checked connections on the various componants. Cleaned and sanded a few earthed just to make sure aswell.

Im still thinking an imob problem, but it cant be possible. Original ECU with its paired imob box. Also unlocked ECU with imob box disconnected, both the same outcome

If you wanna post me the ecu ill check it. I wont touch the map if it needs unlocking

23rd February 2010, 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanmt

If you wanna post me the ecu ill check it. I wont touch the map if it needs unlocking

All of this is on my mates engine and he said thats what we will probabaly have to do at the end of the weekend if we cant get it started. Thanks, will PM u if needs be at the end of the week.

23rd February 2010, 20:25

Hi have you checked to see if you have injector pulse. you can test with noid light or led tester.

23rd February 2010, 20:31

sorry did not read all updates test crank shaft sensor about 1.2ohms and .5 of a volt and rising on crank ac volts hope this helps

23rd February 2010, 20:52

It does help, thankyou, thats another one we can check!

28th February 2010, 21:50

Did you sort this??? If so, how?

2nd March 2010, 00:51

Havnt even tried the coilpack yet, all my tools were left at my mates house where the this problem engine is, so i couldnt get the coilpack off the engine in my garden!

Will update at the weekend though, when we will find out the problem.