Wot cams for my vts??

5th March 2010, 13:37

Im after gettin myself some cams 4 my vts but would like 2 know if any1 has some that have been tried and tested. Decisions decisions......

5th March 2010, 13:39

ph3's 708's or BP285's

5th March 2010, 17:59

708's are the best in my opinion that you can use without getting a remap

5th March 2010, 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by kill_switch

708's are the best in my opinion that you can use without getting a remap

On the standard map the standard cams would be best tbh...

5th March 2010, 18:05

depends on WHAT yes WHAT you want rather than WOT people say.. as Raunchz said Piper 285 are slightly more pricey but you pay for what you get

5th March 2010, 18:49

708's are about as wild as you can go on a standard bottom end i think!

5th March 2010, 19:42

ment they are the best aftermarket you can go for without haveing to do a remap

5th March 2010, 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by kill_switch

ment they are the best aftermarket you can go for without haveing to do a remap

Id seriously advise mapping to get the full potential though!

5th March 2010, 21:05

If you cam and dont remap you might aswell not of bothered fitting them tbh.
Anything less wild than 708's, ph3's, bp285 are just not worth it imo. The power to cost ratio is shit

5th March 2010, 21:33

newman ph3's seem to be the most popular but as said without a map dont bother... get some throttlebodies on there aswell

5th March 2010, 21:34

well if throttle bodies were being fitted then the above cams are abit pointless

5th March 2010, 21:41

why i no of a few that run this setup

5th March 2010, 21:44

Only reason you run throttle boddies is to use lairy cams.
Soo lairy that the standard inlet can not provide enough air into the cylinders, and fast enough.

5th March 2010, 21:53

wt would you say is the best cam with throttlebodies (sorry for thread hijack) as i am going down that route, and i have seen saxos with ph3 and throttlebodies (at trax) and thought that was the way to go....

5th March 2010, 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by moxy89

depends on WHAT yes WHAT you want rather than WOT people say.. as Raunchz said Piper 285 are slightly more pricey but you pay for what you get

we sell 708,s and piper 285 for same price £285+vat

5th March 2010, 21:56

Im going to be camming mine in the very near future and im going with piper bp285's after doing quite a bit of reading and speaking to people

Edited: forgot to mention this is for road use

5th March 2010, 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by 666saxo666

wt would you say is the best cam with throttlebodies (sorry for thread hijack) as i am going down that route, and i have seen saxos with ph3 and throttlebodies (at trax) and thought that was the way to go....

I cant remember the catcam Cam number (use the search button) but Newman ph4 or ph5s are fantastic cams but not suited to road use

5th March 2010, 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparco_Tom

well if throttle bodies were being fitted then the above cams are abit pointless

I disagree 708,s /285,s and t/bodies + 4-1+ecu will give 170bhp and if mapped correctly will be a well balanced conversion -
-about as far as msot should go --very drivable round town with matched t/body set-up ,and fast enough for most
remapping stanadard ecu is not a good choice and not value for money .
If you decide to go back to std you will have something far more sellable than a remapped std ecu
would you buy one --not me I couldn,t tell a std ecu from a mapped one when off the car .
and more important a remapped ecu is only good for a saxo .
astand alone can be moved to your next project

5th March 2010, 22:02

yer but if your going to all the effort of bodies, standalone, cams, mapping etc. Why do half a job with a mild cam?

5th March 2010, 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

I disagree 708,s /285,s and t/bodies + 4-1+ecu will give 170bhp and if mapped correctly will be a well balanced conversion -
-about as far as msot should go --very drivable round town with matched t/body set-up ,and fast enough for most
remapping stanadard ecu is not a good choice and not value for money .
If you decide to go back to std you will have something far more sellable than a remapped std ecu
would you buy one --not me I couldn,t tell a std ecu from a mapped one when off the car .
and more important a remapped ecu is only good for a saxo .
astand alone can be moved to your next project

how much total would you expect to pay fella for all the above ?fitted and not fitted

5th March 2010, 22:03

Just remember, cams and throttle boddies are only useful if you can optimise them

99% of people on here with big power cars cant drive it to it's limit on track, and thus you have wasted a few £thousand

5th March 2010, 22:05

Thats because only a very select few on here can drive fast

5th March 2010, 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparco_Tom

I cant remember the catcam Cam number (use the search button) but Newman ph4 or ph5s are fantastic cams but not suited to road use

808,s is whatyou are thinking of -- you,ll never get a real mot pass with them and the rpm they make power at 8000rpm is not compatable with hydraulic lifters --so add another £500 + labour +shimming to them .

I have done loads of these comversions on every type of cam +tbody set-up + stand alone ecu .
and I know which set-up gives best all round customer satiifaction --even a couple of years after its done and they have lived with it on a daily basis

5th March 2010, 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashleyp

Just remember, cams and throttle boddies are only useful if you can optimise them

99% of people on here with big power cars cant drive it to it's limit on track, and thus you have wasted a few £thousand

more people should be told. imo 200 bhp is the max a saxo would cope with

5th March 2010, 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by 666saxo666

more people should be told. imo 200 bhp is the max a saxo would cope with

I dont mean how much a saxo can cope with. i mean the driver

most drivers couldnt push a standard vts to its limits...

there was a vid with a 1.2 clio on good suspension and a 172 cup on track. the 172 couldnt keep up because the driver of the 1.2 was good

5th March 2010, 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

808,s is whatyou are thinking of -- you,ll never get a real mot pass with them and the rpm they make power at 8000rpm is not compatable with hydraulic lifters --so add another £500 + labour +shimming to them .

I have done loads of these comversions on every type of cam +tbody set-up + stand alone ecu .
and I know which set-up gives best all round customer satiifaction --even a couple of years after its done and they have lived with it on a daily basis

wt t/b setup would you run and for how much dollar?

5th March 2010, 22:12

My ph4 setup was far far better than my ph3 setup. Although my engines spend 95% of their life flat out on track. Being used to their full potential.
Maybe I'm just being too narrow minded and not giving enough thought to road use. Ph4's were abit of a pain when on the road. Even so the power delivery and results from those cams soon out weighed a slightly harder drive on the road.

5th March 2010, 22:13

i guess they are just a pain at idle?

5th March 2010, 22:14

sparco tom - is that oulton park in your avatar pic. look likes the run down to knickerbrook

5th March 2010, 22:20

yer the idle was rough, also you had to rev quite abit to get the car to move off from a stand.
Yer that is at oulton

5th March 2010, 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparco_Tom

yer the idle was rough, also you had to rev quite abit to get the car to move off from a stand.
Yer that is at oulton

was it manageable though? how often you at oulton, its my local

5th March 2010, 22:28

Yer i managed, but i did next to no road mileage .never anymore, i dont rate oulton plus it is abit far for me to travel.

5th March 2010, 22:31

imo oulton is one of the best circuits. its a reknowned drivers circuit, very technical.back on topic. the gmc price for them 285's seems very good.

5th March 2010, 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by 666saxo666

wt t/b setup would you run and for how much dollar?

suprising enough the gmc/atp bodies i spent months developing with them .
.best value for money as well .
cheapest will be the sandy gsxr setup --but not by that much and you are using s/h t/bodies -

look at my affliates thread on them and tell me they con,t look the biz ,

5th March 2010, 22:33

Last post- Yer oulton is a good drivers circuit, but the cost and travel etc it just doesn't appeal to me.

Yer gmc price is pretty good

5th March 2010, 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

suprising enough the gmc/atp bodies i spent months developing with them .
.best value for money as well .
cheapest will be the sandy gsxr setup --but not by that much and you are using s/h t/bodies -

look at my affliates thread on them and tell me they con,t look the biz ,

dont fancy the sandy setup, yours look quality, price is good to, i guess 1500 quid would see bodies, cams, and ecu without fitting?

5th March 2010, 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by 666saxo666

dont fancy the sandy setup, yours look quality, price is good to, i guess 1500 quid would see bodies, cams, and ecu without fitting?

how you going to have a warranty on 10year old t/bodies ?

5th March 2010, 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

how you going to have a warranty on 10year old t/bodies ?

you talkin bout sandys ones?

5th March 2010, 23:05

T/BODIES --IN GROUP BUY =£675+vat NORMAL £795+VAT
CAMS- = £285+vat
PREDATOR ECU = £550inc vat --maybe be more for next batch
I have 4 on order for single plug from next batch--can be reserved at this price
btb4-1 MANIFOLD S/S=£310+vat
btb4-1 manifold= £195+vat
ecu will come with map from last time i mapped car with this spec+ single t/body +708,s + s/c map+708,s

5th March 2010, 23:11

what power would you expect to see? i guess you have driven this setup, wot do the bodies sound like?

5th March 2010, 23:24

170 ish--just about possible to use std injectors with 4.5fuel reg in std rail,
they are not noisy on cruise --quieter than both jenvey + m/c bodies on cruise --but make plenty of bark when you poke it,

5th March 2010, 23:26

could you change injectors to run the bodies if you wanted to, would you recommened standard or not?

5th March 2010, 23:34

you know what.... I'm going to suggest the PH1's

I bought the PH3's but without an ECU map they're going to be god damn shiisitititte.
That said they're still pants below 4k which makes town and normal driving a real pain. I wish I'd bought the ph1's and banged them in which would have been fine on the normal system but offered much better mid range from it.

6th March 2010, 14:12

Is it bad to get say 708's fitted and then the standard ECU re-mapped? It's just that surely this will work out alot cheaper than say purchasing a predator or omex and then getting those fitted and mapped to the spec of your car...

Will the gains not be as good from a Standard ECU which has been re-mapped opposed to fitting a standalone?

Also, noticed people saying about the power down the lower revs with 708's fitted. Is it alot worse than with standard cams?

Cheersss

6th March 2010, 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRC1

Is it bad to get say 708's fitted and then the standard ECU re-mapped? It's just that surely this will work out alot cheaper than say purchasing a predator or omex and then getting those fitted and mapped to the spec of your car...

Will the gains not be as good from a Standard ECU which has been re-mapped opposed to fitting a standalone?

Also, noticed people saying about the power down the lower revs with 708's fitted. Is it alot worse than with standard cams?

Cheersss

It's not a bad thing to do, it's just you'll pay around £500 for a proper standard Ecu remap (chipwizards) - whereas you could have a predator fitted and road mapped for £550 iirc. And then you can adjust things yourself, or any RR can, you could go TB's or boost with it plus you have the resale value.

Id say gains from fitting standalone and a remap would be the same tbh

I don't think it's worse than standard cams, you'd hardly notice it at all with an S1 box !

6th March 2010, 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

It's not a bad thing to do, it's just you'll pay around £500 for a proper standard Ecu remap (chipwizards) - whereas you could have a predator fitted and road mapped for £550 iirc. And then you can adjust things yourself, or any RR can, you could go TB's or boost with it plus you have the resale value.

Id say gains from fitting standalone and a remap would be the same tbh

I don't think it's worse than standard cams, you'd hardly notice it at all with an S1 box !

Ok mate cheers for you help. Just that i'm looking into getting 708's either before FCS or after. Didn't realise it was £500 for a remap, thought it was around £350ish. Predator 3 plug isn't finished yet iirc so kind of just leaves omex which I don't know a great deal about but I think it works out quite alot due to the labour costs and the costs of the wiring loom aswell...

Ah right thats good then as I wouldn't want the power to be shit below 3k... Do the cams take their effect mainly above like 4k then?

Thanks mate

6th March 2010, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRC1

Ok mate cheers for you help. Just that i'm looking into getting 708's either before FCS or after. Didn't realise it was £500 for a remap, thought it was around £350ish. Predator 3 plug isn't finished yet iirc so kind of just leaves omex which I don't know a great deal about but I think it works out quite alot due to the labour costs and the costs of the wiring loom aswell...

Ah right thats good then as I wouldn't want the power to be shit below 3k... Do the cams take their effect mainly above like 4k then?

Thanks mate

Might be worth hanging off and waiting to see what sort of price the 3 plug Predator comes in at as he's very close to you.

I'll take you out in mine in April and you can see roughly how the cams feel (I've got Piper BP285's), albeit with TB's.

I'd say around 4k they start to get into the swing of things and then at 5-6k they really get going

6th March 2010, 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRC1

Ok mate cheers for you help. Just that i'm looking into getting 708's either before FCS or after. Didn't realise it was £500 for a remap, thought it was around £350ish. Predator 3 plug isn't finished yet iirc so kind of just leaves omex which I don't know a great deal about but I think it works out quite alot due to the labour costs and the costs of the wiring loom aswell...

Ah right thats good then as I wouldn't want the power to be shit below 3k... Do the cams take their effect mainly above like 4k then?

Thanks mate

Mine on ph3's is still plenty fruity below 4k revs so I dont think its that much of an issue thats experience with both a vts box and xsi box.

Regards to ecu id say decide on your final spec now as as above although the standard ecu can run bodies/boost you are tied to one person. If you want cams and nowt else then map the standard ecu by all means but if going further life will be easier with standalone as you probs have a local mapper for tweaks etc

6th March 2010, 14:34

remember Chipwizards is in Rochdale .................

6th March 2010, 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

Might be worth hanging off and waiting to see what sort of price the 3 plug Predator comes in at as he's very close to you.

I'll take you out in mine in April and you can see roughly how the cams feel (I've got Piper BP285's), albeit with TB's.

I'd say around 4k they start to get into the swing of things and then at 5-6k they really get going

Yeah he is very close mate. I'm not in a major rush so might be a good idea to wait a few months and see how the progress of the 3 plug comes along.

Sounds good mate, will give me an idea on what they are like!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by saxo_ron

Mine on ph3's is still plenty fruity below 4k revs so I dont think its that much of an issue thats experience with both a vts box and xsi box.

Regards to ecu id say decide on your final spec now as as above although the standard ecu can run bodies/boost you are tied to one person. If you want cams and nowt else then map the standard ecu by all means but if going further life will be easier with standalone as you probs have a local mapper for tweaks etc

Good to know that they are good below 4k then mate plus I have an S1 box so like Raunchz said, should still be pretty nippy

I honestly can't see me getting tb's but you can never say never! I'll just have to weigh up the pro's and con's of standard opposed to standalone and see what happens with the progress of the 3 plug predator.

Cheers both of you for the advice

6th March 2010, 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

remember Chipwizards is in Rochdale .................

Yeah I know its bloody miles away, are there any local cit/pug specialists that do mapping down here out of interest?

6th March 2010, 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRC1

Yeah I know its bloody miles away, are there any local cit/pug specialists that do mapping down here out of interest?

Not proper mapping that I know of, a lot of places will stick on a generic map, but Chipwizards is a proper map on the dyno to make sure things are spot on and cam timing is optimised.

6th March 2010, 14:53

Thanks 4 all your posts on this guys has helped me out a shit load. Fink im swaying 2ward the ph3's but the price that GMC are doin on the 708's and piper 285's for hasnt made my decision 100% final yet. Time 2 get my arse saving.....

6th March 2010, 15:11

a decent compromise is to go for cat cam's 715, as they are a little more peaky than the 708's but still no need for solid lifters.

have no experience of driving a car with them on, but have had the chance to drive jpsaxo's car and that is more that quick enough in my opinion (was overtaking BM's and other rediculous cars round the ring!!) 170bhp with axsaxoman (john's) jenvey tb's inc. curve trumpet setup, 708's and forged pistons

6th March 2010, 15:12

a decent compromise is to go for cat cam's 715, as they are a little more peaky than the 708's but still no need for solid lifters.

have no experience of driving a car with them on, but have had the chance to drive jpsaxo's car and that is more that quick enough in my opinion (was overtaking BM's and other rediculous cars round the ring!!) 170bhp with axsaxoman (john's) jenvey tb's inc. curve trumpet setup, 708's and forged pistons

6th March 2010, 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRC1

Is it bad to get say 708's fitted and then the standard ECU re-mapped? It's just that surely this will work out alot cheaper than say purchasing a predator or omex and then getting those fitted and mapped to the spec of your car...

Will the gains not be as good from a Standard ECU which has been re-mapped opposed to fitting a standalone?

Also, noticed people saying about the power down the lower revs with 708's fitted. Is it alot worse than with standard cams?

Cheersss

on std car --fit 708,s and alter ex cam timing until it idles smoothest --,fit 4.5 fuel reg ----will be fine till you afford an ecu -this will have moved the max power down the rpm range a little -maybe lose 4-6bhp ,but it will drive acceptably
.
theres alot more to "setting " a car than just banging in bits + pieces

6th March 2010, 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by piggy123

a decent compromise is to go for cat cam's 715, as they are a little more peaky than the 708's but still no need for solid lifters.

have no experience of driving a car with them on, but have had the chance to drive jpsaxo's car and that is more that quick enough in my opinion (was overtaking BM's and other rediculous cars round the ring!!) 170bhp with axsaxoman (john's) jenvey tb's inc. curve trumpet setup, 708's and forged pistons

yes but that solution -cost twice the price of the gmc/atp set
things move on ,well they do if you keep developing things

6th March 2010, 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

on std car --fit 708,s and alter ex cam timing until it idles smoothest --,fit 4.5 fuel reg ----will be fine till you afford an ecu -this will have moved the max power down the rpm range a little -maybe lose 4-6bhp ,but it will drive acceptably
.
theres alot more to "setting " a car than just banging in bits + pieces

I won't be fitting them without an ecu remap or standalone. It's just weighing up whether to remap the standard or buy a standalone...

Also, do vernier pulleys have to be fitted when upgrading cams?

6th March 2010, 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRC1

I won't be fitting them without an ecu remap or standalone. It's just weighing up whether to remap the standard or buy a standalone...

Also, do vernier pulleys have to be fitted when upgrading cams?

vts has vernier pulleys as standard - are perfectly fine with 708's etc.

6th March 2010, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

vts has vernier pulleys as standard - are perfectly fine with 708's etc.

Silly me!

Thanks.

6th March 2010, 16:35

iT WOULD BE MONEY BETTER SPENT TO FIT NEW HYDRAULIC LIFTERS WITH UPRATED CAMS THAN CAM WHEELS
£144 +VAT FOR 16 LIFTERS.
base cirlcle on uprated cams is always different than std cams --so if your lifters have been in one palce for years then if any oil gunk is in thr lifters they sometimes do not readjust themselves as they should --giving unequal timing on dif cylinders

6th March 2010, 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

how you going to have a warranty on 10year old t/bodies ?

What's the likelihood of Keihin bodies giving you problems? Keihin is a Honda company, probably the largest manufacturer of TBs worldwide, Honda being the largest manufacturer of petrol engines worldwide, with the most solid reputation for reliability. None of the bodies we have used are ten years old yet, none of them have given us any problems and I'm sure you've seen the feedback from our customers where you've made these remarks elsewhere John?

Can I suggest you focus on the positive reasons to buy the ATP bodies rather than throwing mud that doesn't stick? Maybe I can help...

*The ATP bodies are CNC machined with anodised finish that looks great.

*I understand they are available off the shelf currently? (we have about 4 week lead time)

*GMC take all major cards.

7th March 2010, 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandy309

What's the likelihood of Keihin bodies giving you problems? Keihin is a Honda company, probably the largest manufacturer of TBs worldwide, Honda being the largest manufacturer of petrol engines worldwide, with the most solid reputation for reliability. None of the bodies we have used are ten years old yet, none of them have given us any problems and I'm sure you've seen the feedback from our customers where you've made these remarks elsewhere John?

Can I suggest you focus on the positive reasons to buy the ATP bodies rather than throwing mud that doesn't stick? Maybe I can help...

*The ATP bodies are CNC machined with anodised finish that looks great.

*I understand they are available off the shelf currently? (we have about 4 week lead time)

*GMC take all major cards.

wt could you offer and at what price mate? (if you are the sandy i think you are

)

7th March 2010, 16:56

Probably LoL

I don't really get involved in retailing, (Colin Satchell makes and sells our kits) but the set ups I use on my customers cars are:

Our GSXR bike bodies kit (£600-650 including sourced Keihin TBs, inc VAT). Complete bolt on inlet set up, with clip on fuel fittings, billet fuel reg housing.

Jenvey DCOE "TH" bodies on our DCOE pattern inlet manifold (£900 total at Jenvey RRP, but they are ripe for deals and usually comes in around £800 inc VAT). Fitting is only slightly more involved than the GSXR kit, but you have a massive choice of TB and trumpets sizes for making a more bespoke set up.

Looking at the results from other rolling roads (ignoring my own results for now), the best TU 8v and 16v power and torque spec for spec seem to have been from our designs.