Torsion Bar lowering Explained

7th April 2010, 22:23

How to lower a saxo on torsion bars

First off all this is the way i do torsion bars, you mite think its wrong but i dont really care to be honest, this has always worked for me so...

You will need a 13mm Spanner, 21mm Spanner, a puller ( or make one out of a socket, bit of threaded bar and a spacer and nut) A Torx 40 Bit, a 10mm, 21mm,13mm Socket and a wheel nut spanner ( one in the boot)

. First of all loosen the 4 wheel nuts eather side then jack the car up on the axel.

1. Take the 4 bolts out eather side now and remove wheels.

2. Now take the 2 13mm bolts out the antiroll bars both sides.

3. Unbolt the bottom 21mm bolt from the dampers on eather side

4. Passenger side, take the 40 torx bolt out and remove the washer infront of the torsion bar.

5. Driver Side Spin the anti roll bar plate verticaly and remove the 40 Torx Bolt.

6. Now on the same side remove the 13mm bolt holding the break hose mount and unclip the handbreak cable and unclip the break pipe from the trailing arm, so theres no chance of it breaking when you remove the torsion bar

.7 Now remove the 40 Torx Bolt from behind where the break hose mount is

8. Passenger side, Now remove the 2 10mm bolts holding the break pipe mount so it wont break.

9. now you should atach a puller and remove the torsion bar untill it drops out of the passenger side but still sits on the driverside splines ( baerly)

10. Now you shoul be able to get into the 40 Torx Bolt now that the trailing arm has droped and unbolt it.

11. Driver side, Now the torsion bar should be loose so use the puller to remove it

12. Now Take your lowering size and subtact it from ur starting height and set then new height and hammer the torsion bar back in watching not to damage the splines

13. Repeat the same on the other side i used a bit of masking tape stuck from base of the arch to the wheel centre and markd it with 2 lines so i could copy it to the other side

14. Now refit it back to gether but refit the driverside first as if you do the passenger side first you wont be able to get into the 40 torx bolt

15. Stand back and check all your work, its easy to sort a mistake with the torsion bars in bits n its a pain if you dont and have to restrip and built it again

Hope this has helped cheers liam

7th April 2010, 22:46

Probably missed loads that i cann remember but jus make shure you use pleanty of wd40 and it is a harder job than it seems when you do it for the 1st time

7th April 2010, 23:06

from what i've heard torsion bars are not that easy to remove?

7th April 2010, 23:15

no there not i tried and couldnt even get the washer out its that badly stuck on. now my vtr is lowered 40mm at front and standard at back like a drag car lol. any1 able to do it on here?give me a price and area to were you are.im in west yorkshire/ huddersfield so not looking to travel to far thanks

7th April 2010, 23:24

italics hurts my eyes to read.

Fair play on the guide, tbh there is loads and people will always ask.

Torsion bar set up isnt exactly complicated imho.
few bolts and some measuring.

Hardest part is getting seized bars out, but to actually work out whats going on? not rocket science.

7th April 2010, 23:30

yer i know mate jus see everyone asking how to do it lol

8th April 2010, 08:21

you missed out removing the washers

i work off a standard starting height of 400mm from lip on hub to arch, and just subtract the amount im lowering it from that.

8th April 2010, 08:55

loads of guides already so why not another. "puller" is not a good option though

8th April 2010, 09:35

whats a puller lol =[

8th April 2010, 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by saxtreme

whats a puller lol =[

common sense tells me it's a tool used for pulling?

8th April 2010, 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aron

loads of guides already so why not another. "puller" is not a good option though

As Aron says a slide hammer or 'puller' is a crap option with very little rate of success - plus if the attachment isnt fitted tight enough theres a serious risk of pulling the thread out of the torsion bar end rather than actually pulling the bar.

Other method occasionally used by people is by putting a socket big enough to cover the torsion bar recesses, then with a couple of thick washers wind in a high tensile bolt which in theory will also pull the bar out - again very limited success rate and if the bolt being used is too long and it bottoms out theres a risk of snapping it in the torsion bar - again just causing a world of crap trying to get it out.

THE ONLY FAIL PROOF OPTION IS:

Get yourself a decent bar or drift and a decent hammer (a DIY hammer wont be sufficient) and hit the bars out with that.

It is advisable to get some decent quality hex head bolts to insert into the torsion bar ends before hitting, this therefore eliminates any risk of damaging the torsion bar ends in particular the threaded holes.

Also on a side note although the anti roll bar doesnt need to be removed it makes it alot easier if it is,:

Remove the rubber grommet from passenger side ARB end plate (T40) and remove the ARB end plate bolt (13mm) from the drivers side.

You can then use the top rear damper bolt to wind into the threaded hole where the rubber grommet has just come out of, and itll push the ARB out through the drivers side.

IMPORTANT NOTE:

The advantage of removing the ARB is that whilst you're pushing it out you can monitor the ARB end plate seal on the drviers side. the majority of the time this seal can be very hard stuck on the end plate and may need a bit of assistance to wiggle it free.

These seals are massively important to protecting the internal bearings from the elements so it is important to take care with them- or even replace them anyway for piece of mind whilst undertaking the lowering process (approx £5 each from pug/cit)

The disadvantage of not removing the ARB and instead rotating the end plates to gain access to the bolt hidden behind the drivers side ARB end plate is that if your seals are in bad condition and have fused themselves to the ARB end plates (This happens more often than not) then forcing them round holds a strong possibility of tearing the seals.

If the seals are torn or damaged and not checked or replaced then this will be detrimental to the beam and with water being able to seep in then rear beam failure will be on its way.

8th April 2010, 12:08

basicly theres multiple ways of doin it, i used the socket washer and a nut method so you dont bottom it out and so it goes deep enuf to not strip the threads

it all depends on the condition of the rear end

just have a play about with the socket method and providing u have thecommon sense not to break it you should get itand failing thatuse a big hammer lolz

cheers for the input willsy

8th April 2010, 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by williamsvts

you missed out removing the washers

i work off a standard starting height of 400mm from lip on hub to arch, and just subtract the amount im lowering it from that.

He knows what he's talking about.... or at least i hope so, because he's the one who will hopfully do mine when i get the money

8th April 2010, 12:26

the hammmer u require is a slide hammer for the job

8th April 2010, 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by appo123

the hammmer u require is a slide hammer for the job

Which as already stated will very very rarely work

8th April 2010, 12:52

just to clear things up, what is the difference between this, and the ''notches method'' which everybody hates on? im a bit confused

8th April 2010, 14:16

ye slide hammers are prety pish lol

8th April 2010, 17:48

Awesome

this will be left to fall into the back pages and never found again as nobody searches
makes about 4 guides like this now that nobody reads

and as per willsy and Aron slide hammers are pants
and bolt socket method is risky too if the bolt snaps your fucked

8th April 2010, 19:09

bugger a slide hammer, just use a proper 'man size' hammer and a metal bar to hit the out. quickest and easiest way imo

8th April 2010, 20:06

i must have been very lucky i got my bars out with a small 4lb slide hammer without damaging the threads. infact they came out a breeze and have done every other time since, very lucky imo.

8th April 2010, 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

bolt socket method is risky too if the bolt snaps your fucked

Dont let it bottom out but make shure its in far enuff then......not hard lol

8th April 2010, 21:42

ive snapped them not at bottom man
if the bars corroded enough it can snap a low tensile bolt without bottoming

10th April 2010, 15:13

spose my saxos have been 2002 + so they wont be that bad

10th April 2010, 16:33

Yea my 03 was nice and easy
my R reg 106 was too

it depends on the car individually

seen some that have been shit on later reg cars

10th April 2010, 16:45

i had trouble trying to get at the torx bolt behind the trailing arm on the passengers side, how do i get that one out?

10th April 2010, 16:50

number 4 on the list of how he does it

10th April 2010, 18:54

what is the clicks method as mentioned earlier?? i have read the 'clicks' on the bar in magazines etc but have no idea what it is. is it this method and i'm being thick??

12th April 2010, 02:10

Hi, guys

I recently had to buy a new rear beam due to it failing the MOT

anyway £220 later I noticed a small amount of play still in the drivers side radius arm obviously not very happy, so i removed the radius arm to check the bearings there was however no damage to the stub pin and the bearings looked fine :/ so i stuck it all back together, stupid me tho didnt take note of where the radius arm was in relation to the other side so i messured from the bottom of the car to the flat plate on the back of the radius arm, on the side i hadnt took off it was 155mm but on the side i took off i couldnt get it to match this

the closest i could get was 10mm difference so side i hadnt touched 155mm side i had 165mm :/ if i moved it up a notch it was then to high at i dunno half an inch higher.. so i finnaly gave up moving it from half inch out to 10mm out and left it at that i even losened the ARB end plates as i thought it may still be holding the end i hadnt messed with up alittle but made 0 difference. still 10mm out or there abouts the car dosnt look visably higher on one side but u can fit ur hand under the arch one side and not the other again about a 10 to 20 mm difference.

I was also changing the notches by pulling the radius arm off then pushing it back onto the torq bar.

Is there something I was doing wrong I?

Also how do u align the ARB ends? do they just have to be in the same place?

Regards
Fubsy

12th April 2010, 15:56

Try it again on the one thats low but this time move it up 5 mm more than what you need and chap it in and then it should drop that 5mm one you have the torsion bar in then on the other side if its 5mm out after that do the same but the opposit

Or Move the one thats low up the hight that the other side is at plus 5mm and chap it in n that should sort it

12th April 2010, 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebo123

i had trouble trying to get at the torx bolt behind the trailing arm on the passengers side, how do i get that one out?

if you take the passenger side torsion bar out first the arm should drop then remove the 2 bolts holding the break hose mount and pull the break pipe out of the rubber mount and with the trailing arm sitting on the ground ( not stressing on any of the hoses because you undid them) pust the torx bit on the end of an etension on a ratchet under the break pipe and you should get it fine

13th April 2010, 17:18

Did you manage to get it out?

13th April 2010, 19:34

any one have a car problem let me know directly also have the latest diagnostic computer i am a qualified mechanic thanks

13th April 2010, 19:59

A diagnostics machine won't help you fix suspension issues...

14th April 2010, 20:24

having read al these posts I think i will write you the definative "how to guide" which has worked for me for last 20 years on ax,s + saxo,s
PART 1

firststep
fit front lowering springs and drive round to settle them in .

now we can start
start by sitting car on level surface and measure height at both front jacking points ,using the flat bit in the middle of the jacking point
you should have 2 pairs of measurements --both front = rear pair should not vary by more than 3mm 5mm max ,as 3m is the miniumum adustment between sides you can get with torsion bars .
if the values are out then you already have a problem .
I am assuming you have tyres to correct pressure and you have all heavy articles in the car you are intending to run it with .--.so if you are fitting a big sub ,then get it in or at least the weight of it --remember not only are we trying to lower /raise the car .but we want even corner weights if possible.
back to the problem-- if you do not have pairs of values then either the torsion bars are already in wrong ,chassis is bent or top strut mounting holes at front are not flat or springs are wrong --typical of boyracer running -80mm --std damper --or even some uprated ones go fully closed and bend top mount.

how to find out whats wrong .

find centre of car at rear and jack up till rear wheels are just off ground --you should now have front values the same --if not then find out why and fix it before proceeding .
If they are apir ,then the back is the problem -torsion bars fitted wrong ,bent arb ,packing spacers missed from axle ,or bent shell.
If you have a problem at rear first thing to do is disconect the arb and remove lower damper bolts --back on the ground and remeasure-would not be first time i have seen arb is forced to line up .

on this point it is a good test when reassemblying ,if arb bolt hole on second side you fit is more than half a hole out ,then you have a problem ,bars in wrong ,bent bent arb --find out which.
more to come in next posting

14th April 2010, 20:35

is the torsion bar itself the actual arb then?? trying to get my head round this

14th April 2010, 20:45

PART 2

adjusting rear ride height

next check to do with car raised at rear and on axle stands -use rear jacking points
a clever man will have undone lower damper bolts when car is on the floor ,as there is no tension on them in that postion .
with them off now check for radius arm bearing wear --if you can feel ANY AT all ,then you will never get the corner weights and ride height correct .

Ok with car on rear stands and wheels and dampers disconnected now measure EACH side from bottom of disc to floor + write this down --it will never be the same unless you have the perfect floor and the only pair of equal height axle stands in the world
for most usage the best compromise of height between front and rear to handle best in a predictable manner is 15-20mm higher at back jacking points than front ones.
do some maths and you will come up with the new height you need between the bottom of your discs and the ground you are on ,remember to allow for any variance between sides due to axle stands and uneven ground.
If you were very clever you would have sprayed the torsion bars at the ends and where they go into the axle and the radius arms about a week ago and kept giving a spray every day if its a particularly crud infested back axle ..

now undo both arb retaining bolts --on one side if later car or both if its an ax you will find a plastic plug in cemtre of arb --remove plug and find a bolt with correct thread and screw it in --this will push off the arb end plate --remove arb .
now it is possible to lower car without removing arb -just remove securing bolts and swivel arb out of the way ,but better to remove it .

you now need to remove the torq screws that secure the eccentric torion bar locating plates ----remove all four of them
you will make life easier if you also remove the offside brake hose support bracket .
spray some more realease fluid in the ends and carefully remove outer eccentric washers,
now is a good time to use a small screwdriver or poking device to clean out the groove the eccentric washer locates into ,while the release oil does its magic on the torsion bars

14th April 2010, 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by samfenna

is the torsion bar itself the actual arb then?? trying to get my head round this

you have two torsion bars they are the rear springing medium .
the arb fastens between both radius arms .

14th April 2010, 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

you have two torsion bars they are the rear springing medium .
the arb fastens between both radius arms .

yeah thanks

cleared it up now

14th April 2010, 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by williamsvts

you missed out removing the washers

i work off a standard starting height of 400mm from lip on hub to arch, and just subtract the amount im lowering it from that.

Best ways of doing this is with a big hammer and some time, like Aron and Willsy said,

And as for the washers, what about saying there off set

bit of freeing off oil and a small flat blade will get these out, but if not the a small punch and hammer, then just grind down the washer when putting the back in so they just slot into place,

Adz

14th April 2010, 21:36

PART 3

the nasty bit

I have tried all of the methods suggested and the best by far is to find suitable socket + thick flat washers and a length of 8mm threaded rod --I use a long 12.9 cap screws and repace them noe and then .
screw in the 8mm threaded rod or long bolt with a nut on it as well so you can tighten this down against your spacer of choice .
If torsion bars were greased up last time they were out ,or if it has never been touched then it will come out quite easy ,but to be fair there are very few saxo,s that have not been messed with and people never think about cleaning out the splnes and regreasing them on refitting .
its stuck

ok so it won,t come out , I hve to assume you have some smebelance of common sense and know how tight you can wind up an 8mm bolt before it will snap .
If you break the bolt --your a dipstick --and next time you will not rush things
tighten up the nut ,you cannot just use a bolt because it will bottom out before you have moved the bar very far.
its tight and nothing is moving -- waggle the radius arm up and down and hit the torsion bar side on near outer end and just keep tightening the nut --It will come if you just take your time you will need to change the spacer you are using as the bar comes out futher for a socket that will fit over the dia of the bar,so you can withdraw it fully out of both ends of the spline ,
what may happen ,but not often is the opposite end to the radius arm is moee seized then the outer end ,this will cause the arm to pull on a,this will casue the inner seal to be in the wrong place when you are rebuilding --more of this later .
so if this happenning hit it near other end and plenty of realease oil ,last ditch solution is to hit the back side of radius arm so it pulls it out of far side .
remeber that just as the splines come out of arm the hub will drop down and cut your legs off ,so be ready with something under the rear disc to catch it.
Ok bars are out --now clean them with wire brush and grease them up up both ends.
those measurements you made earlier --remember?
now pack brake disc up to new required height with somthing.i am assuming you are not replacing the radius arm bearings ,but it would not hurt to slide of the arm and physically check them and the tube for signs of wear or water ingress----regrease the radius arm and slip it back on ,taking care not to drop road dirt into the bearings or newly greased up axle tube.
also check the condition of the rear seal ,if it is ripped or prished you ahould relace it or water will get in and dthen your bearings will last no time at all

OK hubschocked up --now slide torsion bar back in and keep trying to slipit at least half way in ,just keep turning and trying it there will be a place that lines up .
push bars 5/4 in level with end of radius arm --fit wheels --no arb .no dampers -drop to floor and bouce uo and down and do the frnt and rear measuringg again
If you have done it correct you will have 2 pairs of heights front being 15-20mm LOWER than the rear.

if not do it all again --and you will be glad you didi not push bars all the way in or refitted the damoers + arb

ok everything happy --jack up push bars fully home so they touvh the inner eccentric washers that you did not remove at the beginning .refit the torq bolts ,but i myself throw them away and fit 8mm bolt --much easier to undo next time
you may need to jiggle the radius arm about to get the torsion bar alignment to be correct so you can slip in the nice clean outer eccentric washers
now refit outer eccentric washer retaining bolts .

very important

now look round the back of the radius arm with a light and check that the flexible lipof the rear seal is fully turned back on itself against the stainless steel ring on the axle .
if not then you can move the seal on the arm or thering on the axle to make it happen
not doing this will destroy your bearings very very quickly as water and neddle rollers do not agree .

now i know these bearing are looked upon by some as poor .but my experience is that 95% of porblems come from bad lowering jobs with seals incorrectly fitted + postioned relative to the ring on the axle.
there is nothing wrong with the OE design its people fiddling who do not have the knowledge or attentio to detail which cause the problem ,and I includegarages in this ,not just DIY men

al you have left to do is refit the arb -- put one side on and fit retaining bolt --go to other sideand keep trying arm till you find correct postion --remember no more than half a hole out--l fit bolt but do not ighten at this time
a very common problem is one of these bolts snapping --the cause is incorrect fitment of arb end --once arb end plate is on take an 8mm bolt and screw it into and of arb and draw the plate in tight to radius arm.
this is your other sealing point ,so if the end seal is bad you must replace that as well ,or water will get in and you have buggered bearings again .
now tighten up arb secring bolt and refit plastic plug
fit wheels .drop on ground and reconnect lower damper bolts
recheck ride heights
job done

14th April 2010, 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adz

Best ways of doing this is with a big hammer and some time, like Aron and Willsy said,

And as for the washers, what about saying there off set

bit of freeing off oil and a small flat blade will get these out, but if not the a small punch and hammer, then just grind down the washer when putting the back in so they just slot into place,

Adz

just what we need more cowboys telling folk the fuck up way of doing thngs

just clean out the slot and no need to grind the eccentric washers if they and the slots are clean

15th April 2010, 01:04

Well worth spending the extra time cleaning things up properly.

I use a strong pin which ive bent into a decent shape to get into the washer recess and pick out any much and dirt, works quite well

15th April 2010, 17:23

Ye i do the same just get a 3mm flathead screwdrive or similar and put a 90 degrees bend in it but bend it so that it scrapes the stuff out with ways, in other words bend it to the left not forwards.....or do you think that will complicate folk lol?

15th April 2010, 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fubsy

Hi, guys

I recently had to buy a new rear beam due to it failing the MOT

anyway £220 later I noticed a small amount of play still in the drivers side radius arm obviously not very happy, so i removed the radius arm to check the bearings there was however no damage to the stub pin and the bearings looked fine :/ so i stuck it all back together, stupid me tho didnt take note of where the radius arm was in relation to the other side so i messured from the bottom of the car to the flat plate on the back of the radius arm, on the side i hadnt took off it was 155mm but on the side i took off i couldnt get it to match this

the closest i could get was 10mm difference so side i hadnt touched 155mm side i had 165mm :/ if i moved it up a notch it was then to high at i dunno half an inch higher.. so i finnaly gave up moving it from half inch out to 10mm out and left it at that i even losened the ARB end plates as i thought it may still be holding the end i hadnt messed with up alittle but made 0 difference. still 10mm out or there abouts the car dosnt look visably higher on one side but u can fit ur hand under the arch one side and not the other again about a 10 to 20 mm difference.

I was also changing the notches by pulling the radius arm off then pushing it back onto the torq bar.

Is there something I was doing wrong I?

Also how do u align the ARB ends? do they just have to be in the same place?

Regards
Fubsy

If you have any movement in newly reconned axle --then its not been done right --get them told ,there should be no play AT ALL if its done right