16V conversion wont start

1. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

   #1 13th April 2010, 13:28

   Ok so here is the scenario. Its a 106 GTI engine into a 106 Quiksilver.
   
   Everythings been wired in and connected up and we tried starting it for the first time last night. It turns over but it wont fire. It seems the fuel pump is not priming or pumping fuel as the fuel pipe in the engine bay has no fuel coming out of it. Tank has 10 litres in it.
   
   We used the 106 GTI loom, ECU and fuel relay with the Quiksilver fuse box + fuel pump and fuel cut off switch.
   
   I have tried the following.
   
   Pressed the red fuel cut off switch. Checked the fuel pump fuse.
   
   The next thing i was gonna do is the following
   
   change fuel relay under ECU.
   
   Anything else i can do. Suggestions?
   
   Any help much appreciated.
2. 2000vtr Regular Poster Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 354

   #2 13th April 2010, 13:30

   checked theres voltage at the pump?
   
   wire it directly to the battery to see if it works?
3. ryanmt Established Member Joined: Oct 2004 Warrington Posts: 1987 AX VTS 57 3.0 TDI A5

   #3 13th April 2010, 14:18

   check your getting all the lives to the ignition relay? Is there 3 thick blue wires running tot he fuse box and 1 thin one? they all need perm lives.
4. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

   #4 13th April 2010, 14:34

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by 2000vtr checked theres voltage at the pump? wire it directly to the battery to see if it works?

   I can check it with the multimeter but the pump was working fine for 6 years in the Quiksilver before we did the conversion so i imagine its an electrical problem.
5. vtrlogan Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2007 Ely~ Posts: 4591 Mantis Blue VTR

   #5 13th April 2010, 14:35

   Check you have spark at the plugs.. if you got sparks then your ecu isnt locked.
   
   if you got pulse to the coilpack put no spark then your ecu is locked..
   
   If not check crank sensor, take it off and clean with wd40 on the connection.
6. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

   #6 13th April 2010, 14:37

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by ryanmt check your getting all the lives to the ignition relay? Is there 3 thick blue wires running tot he fuse box and 1 thin one? they all need perm lives.

   Il check that tonight. So three thick wires going into the fusebox and one thin one.
   
   We put the fusebox back exactly how we took it apart. I will get a picture of it and post it up.
7. vtrlogan Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2007 Ely~ Posts: 4591 Mantis Blue VTR

   #7 13th April 2010, 14:39

   you can also put the fuel pump straight to the battery from taking number 9 fuse out i think and connecting a wire from the right side off the fuse to the main positive on the side off the fuse box. had to do it on my old gti as had no end off ecu faults!
8. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

   #8 13th April 2010, 14:39

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by vtrlogan Check you have spark at the plugs.. if you got sparks then your ecu isnt locked. if you got pulse to the coilpack put no spark then your ecu is locked.. If not check crank sensor, take it off and clean with wd40 on the connection.

   Im pretty sure the ECU is unlocked because we had the engine running in the GTI and removed the immobiliser while it was running and then restarted the car.
   
   Crank sensor was cleaned.
   
   Its definately a fuel supply problem as the pump isnt priming.
   
   Im also guessing that a locked ECU doesnt prevent the pump from priming.
9. vtrlogan Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2007 Ely~ Posts: 4591 Mantis Blue VTR

   #9 13th April 2010, 14:49

   no with a locked ecu the fuel pump WILL sound like it is priming but it doesnt send petrol.. its werid i had the problem with my gti mate..
10. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #10 13th April 2010, 14:52

    Ok. The quiksilver wont prime at all
11. vtrlogan Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2007 Ely~ Posts: 4591 Mantis Blue VTR

    #11 13th April 2010, 14:55

    tae number 9 fuse out and connect a wire to the postive and connect it to the red wire on the side off the fuseholder then try ur fuel pump.. think it number 9..
12. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #12 13th April 2010, 15:02

    So fuse number 9 out and connect a wire from the battery positive to the right hand hole of the fuse i just took out?
13. Colin Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2006 Banbury Posts: 4623 Saxo Rally Car Evo 6

    #13 13th April 2010, 15:08

    Did you remove the standard Quicky immobiliser? Coz if not the ecu/key codes dont match and then it locks itself again.
14. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #14 13th April 2010, 15:09

    Yep. Quiky ECU removed before the ECU was connected
15. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #15 13th April 2010, 16:28

    Interestingly the fuel guage is still working. Doesnt this come from the pump. If there was no power to the pump surely it wouldnt work?
16. Colin Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2006 Banbury Posts: 4623 Saxo Rally Car Evo 6

    #16 13th April 2010, 16:31

    Does it crank over? I cant see it being anything else other than locked ecu or wiring slightly wrong somewhere.
17. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #17 13th April 2010, 16:35

    it cranks just no priming of the pump or any fuel coming through. ECU is unlocked and immobiliser is removed.
    
    Il give some stuff a try tonight with my multimeter and see whether i can get it figured out.
    
    Thanks.
18. shayne_vtr Frequent Poster Joined: Jul 2009 chesterfield Posts: 571 SAXO VTR POSI BLUE MK1 (98)

    #18 13th April 2010, 16:39

    try changing ignition barrel
19. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #19 13th April 2010, 18:38

    Ok so on second stage on ignition there is 2.5 volts accross pin 1 and 2 of the fuel pump connector. With no ignition on there is no voltage. Any ideas? Working on it now.
    
    Thanks
20. williamsvts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 northumberland Posts: 7693 pulsar gtir, mk4 astra sxi

    #20 14th April 2010, 09:30

    should be higher voltage than that. you checked all earths? most conversion problems are down to bad earths.

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21. williamsvts Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 northumberland Posts: 7693 pulsar gtir, mk4 astra sxi

    #21 14th April 2010, 09:30

    does it crank over? your battery ok? lol
22. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #22 14th April 2010, 10:28

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by williamsvts should be higher voltage than that. you checked all earths? most conversion problems are down to bad earths.

    Think i have checked all earths. there is one big one off the battery negative to the chassis which i rubbed down and made a good connection on yesterday.
    
    Then there is another one on the gearbox from the battery which i made a good connection on yesterday as well by rubbing it down.
    
    Also connected to the gearbox earth is what i think is an earth that comes out of the loom not far from the starter motor wiring. It is green and yellow. On my VTS this same wire is connected to a different bolt on top of the gearbox but the gearbox on the 106 GTI is earlier and doesnt have this second bolt so i put that earth on the same as the battery to gearbox one.
    
    Hope that makes sense. Thank you for your help.
23. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #23 14th April 2010, 10:29

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by williamsvts does it crank over? your battery ok? lol

    Yep it cranks over really well and battery is fully charged
24. ryanmt Established Member Joined: Oct 2004 Warrington Posts: 1987 AX VTS 57 3.0 TDI A5

    #24 14th April 2010, 11:46

    have you plugged the ecu in and left your old transponder box plugged in?
25. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #25 14th April 2010, 12:17

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ryanmt have you plugged the ecu in and left your old transponder box plugged in?

    you mean the immobiliser black box which is under the steering wheel on the quiky?
    
    If so yes that was removed before the ECU was connected
26. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #26 14th April 2010, 12:18

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ryanmt have you plugged the ecu in and left your old transponder box plugged in?

    Did you read what i said about the earths? Does that seem ok?
    
    Thanks.
27. kyle4256 Established Member Joined: Feb 2008 dundee Posts: 1844 saxo vts

    #27 14th April 2010, 12:19

    wat fuel pump you using?gti or quicksilver? if i remember rite do you not need to run a return fuel pipe through aswell?
28. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #28 14th April 2010, 12:35

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kyle4256 wat fuel pump you using?gti or quicksilver? if i remember rite do you not need to run a return fuel pipe through aswell?

    Quiksilver pump but we ran the fuel return we took from the GTI and modified the tank setup to be exactly the same as the GTI.
    
    Strange how the pump is only getting 2.5 volts of power instead of 12
29. kyle4256 Established Member Joined: Feb 2008 dundee Posts: 1844 saxo vts

    #29 14th April 2010, 12:47

    if it was me id be using the gti fuel pump, sounds like a wiring issue though...
30. raunchz Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R

    #30 14th April 2010, 12:53

    I've used a westcoast fuel pump on mine with no problems to report yet.
31. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #31 14th April 2010, 13:02

    one other thing maybe worth noting is that they were both single plug looms but the GTI was a 1997 and the quicksilver was a 1999. Could this be causing the issue. The GTI fuel pump connector only has 3 wires but the quiksilver fuel pump connector has 5 wires.
32. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #32 15th April 2010, 10:33

    anyone?
    
    kind of annoying me now
    
    does anyone know if the looms may cause this problem with one being a 97 and one being a 99?
33. raunchz Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R

    #33 15th April 2010, 10:43

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ashleyoneill anyone? kind of annoying me now does anyone know if the looms may cause this problem with one being a 97 and one being a 99?

    No should be fine.
    
    Run 12v to the fuel pump to see if it's that
34. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #34 15th April 2010, 10:58

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by raunchz No should be fine. Run 12v to the fuel pump to see if it's that

    thanks raunchz
    
    +12v to pin 1 and -12v to pin 2 on the connector?
35. raunchz Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R

    #35 15th April 2010, 11:01

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ashleyoneill thanks raunchz +12v to pin 1 and -12v to pin 2 on the connector?

    I don't know which pins off the top of my head, a mulitmeter will tell you which pins you need
36. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #36 16th April 2010, 15:29

    Ok...quick update.
    
    Had a friend over who is an electrical engineer.
    
    He said there is power to the ignition relay but no power leaves the relay to go to the fusebox and then onto the cut off switch and then to the pump. He said the earths look good and that the 2.5 volts that we are seeing is the fuel level sender.
    
    He suggested we do the following.
    
    1) Try the GTI and Quiksilver relays in my VTS to see if they are faulty.
    2) Change the loom from the 97 one to the 99 one my friend has bought.
    3) Try a fully unlocked ECU - could this be the cause? We unlocked the GTI ECU by starting the car and removing the immobiliser and then the GTI restarted fine. We also removed the Quiky immobiliser box before reconnecting the GTI ECU.
    
    One last random point. My friend painted the ECU tray black....the ECU doesnt earth itself in some crazy way via this tray does it?
37. ryanmt Established Member Joined: Oct 2004 Warrington Posts: 1987 AX VTS 57 3.0 TDI A5

    #37 16th April 2010, 20:27

    No, the ecu case doesnt need an earth.
    
    The power doesnt go from the relay to the fusebox it comes from the fusebox. The feed for the pump is direct from the relay. the cutoff switch breaks the connection between pin 7 of the IR and pin 7 on the ecu.
    
    Plug the quicky ecu and ecu box back in and see what happens
38. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #38 17th April 2010, 21:43

    Thanks Ryan.
    
    Ran a permenant +12V today and it started and ran yay.
    
    So it seems ECU is unlocked and working fine. Now to fix the problem with the relay not sending the +12v
39. c20xejay Frequent Poster Joined: Jan 2010 Wakefield Posts: 594 seat leon fr

    #39 17th April 2010, 21:48

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ryanmt No, the ecu case doesnt need an earth. The power doesnt go from the relay to the fusebox it comes from the fusebox. The feed for the pump is direct from the relay. the cutoff switch breaks the connection between pin 7 of the IR and pin 7 on the ecu. Plug the quicky ecu and ecu box back in and see what happens

    are you the lad on ebay by any chance ive been txting bout unlocking ecu?
40. c20xejay Frequent Poster Joined: Jan 2010 Wakefield Posts: 594 seat leon fr

    #40 17th April 2010, 21:50

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by raunchz I've used a westcoast fuel pump on mine with no problems to report yet.

    might sound silly but does it run just as well cos ill be using a 1.4 fuel pump for the time being no missfire or anything.

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41. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #41 17th April 2010, 21:50

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by c20xejay are you the lad on ebay by any chance ive been txting bout unlocking ecu?

    nope not me mate.
42. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #42 17th April 2010, 21:51

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by c20xejay might sound silly but does it run just as well cos ill be using a 1.4 fuel pump for the time being no missfire or anything.

    It ran fine for the time we had it started.
43. c20xejay Frequent Poster Joined: Jan 2010 Wakefield Posts: 594 seat leon fr

    #43 17th April 2010, 21:53

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ashleyoneill nope not me mate.

    no ryan lad
44. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #44 17th April 2010, 21:55

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by c20xejay no ryan lad

    haha sorry im being dumb and not reading whos quoting who
45. ashleyoneill Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Chippenham, Wiltshire Posts: 796 Mk2 Wicked Red VTS

    #45 28th April 2010, 10:31

    Just an update. Got a 99 loom from eBay and installed it and now the pump primes fine and the car starts.
    
    Seems there is a difference between the 97 and 99 looms.
    
    Watch out for that one people!
46. littleo13 Infrequent Poster Joined: May 2009 armitage/lichfield/rugeley/staffordshire Posts: 174 106 XSi saxo vtr saxo vtr converted to vts

    #46 14th June 2010, 04:45

    alright mate good 2 here you got it all sorted in the end i should be doing the 16v soon from a vtr fingers crossed all goes good and well and just steering off the subject this is gonna sound wired but i have the exactly the same name as you :s by any chance is your middle name thomas aswell lol wired that is both call ashley o'neill and got saxo's haha