Anybody know of anone who has fitter the DP 1800cc stroker kit?

12th May 2010, 14:13

Getting GMC to build me an engine for my vts late September, and was wondering if anybody knew any pros and cons of this kit? Obviously being 2.5k it's an expensive package, but if I'm looking at 6k for an engine to be built to high performance spec and the other bits n nobs like a LSD and changing gearbox bearings, would it be worth going the extra mile to get this stroker kit?
On another thread GMC said they weren't too good but I'm after some first hand feedback

Thanks in advance

12th May 2010, 14:58

Are you going for a NA set up or going boost? 2.5k for a extra 200cc does seem expensive but am sure it will make a noticeable difference just depends how much you want to spend
and it will certainly be different as i am not aware of many stroked saxos

12th May 2010, 15:01

I think you should take the advice GMC give you, they have much more knowledge than 99% of people on here and have built many engines over the years. Your probably best just asking John what you want out of the engine and how you want it to perform, then he can create you a spec..

On a side note, I think the stroker kits are only really worth while if your having a turbo conversion (and an expensive one at that). I know a couple of people on different forums have bought the stroker kit but are still building their engines.

12th May 2010, 16:20

The stroker kit is only justifiable for motor-sport imho. Either to use a TU engine under 1800 regs or to meet weight restrictions.

Anyone who tells me its actually worth 2.5k needs a rock throwing at them. 2.5k out of 6 grand is too much for you really you'd end up making cuts that cancel out the stroker kit. Personally I would budget the money on Brakes, Wheels, Tyres, Suspension & a Diff.

Then with the money left, go to work on the engine. Getting a high spec N/A engine isnt just expensive its difficult and usually takes quite alot of mapping.

Id get in touch with Ricky P. One of his customers valvers has over 170bhp and only has bike bodies and cams. Sub 1k. + a Chipwizard remap on the oem ecu. Then id also speak to Ryan from here. He has spent thousands and thousands and has just over 200bhp N/A and has changed just about everything.

Hope that helps?

12th May 2010, 18:12

... delete me

12th May 2010, 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harv

I think you should take the advice GMC give you, they have much more knowledge than 99% of people on here and have built many engines over the years. Your probably best just asking John what you want out of the engine and how you want it to perform, then he can create you a spec..

On a side note, I think the stroker kits are only really worth while if your having a turbo conversion (and an expensive one at that). I know a couple of people on different forums have bought the stroker kit but are still building their engines.

Hello mate i was the first person in uk to have the low comp stroker kit fitted. I had this done in 2008 by prima racing look on you tube. its saxo turbo stroker.oh yeah its only on bout 9 psi on the rollers if i can remember. Its now on much more.

12th May 2010, 18:22

you will gain very little if not any bhp from the stroker kit, however it will help with torque. but not loads. 2.5k worth? definately not.

also, if you run it boosted, you'll have more torque than you could have ever wanted on just the 1600.

why are you going for the expensive engine build anyway? what power are you wanting?

13th May 2010, 01:11

I'm going For the n/a setup to be a bit different + I've always loved the sound of throttle bodies so was planning on running these with some catcam 808's or similar with solid lifters, standalone ecu performance valves and springs.

If I didn't get the 1800cc stroker kit I would still need to invest in performance conrods and pistons etc to run the high revs that I'm hoping I'll be able to, so the 1800cc kit becomes cheaper if you take into consideration that I'll be spending over 1k on these parts anyway.

I'm wanting a diff fitted anyway but already have huge brakes, great suspension setup and a brand new set of T1r's so my car is up to scratch in all other departments

I've just set up a 1 man car valeting business which i do when I get home from my day job which Is bringing me in about 150£ a week on top of my wage, and finished paying off 50£ a week for a long list of repairs which I had to get my dad to front the money for so with this extra 200£ a week I thought I'd go into saving mode and save for the engine build I've always wished for!

What kind of rpm is acheivable with the appropriate camshafts with a high spec stroker kit? And what is the limiting factor when calculating the figure? Probably cooling?

13th May 2010, 08:17

Oh yeh and I'm looking for 180bhp+ aiming for 200 idealy, I've heard of people acheive this from na 16v tu's so I might aswell aim high.
Will I need aftermarket driveshafts or are the OEM ones up to scratch?
And how big a job is replacing gearbox bearings with uprated ones costwise?
Sorry for 101 questions but the answers on this thread so far seem to be helpful so I thought I'd piggyback a few things,
thanks
rob

13th May 2010, 08:53

You don't need the stroker kit mentioned to achieve 200bhp on your engine. As mentioned previously in this thread, the theory is that the increased capacity should provide more torque, however, I've been led to believe you will not produce as much power in the higher RPM area, so will probably not rev as high compared to non-stroker setup. As there's nobody to show the results of this, I would certainly heed GMC's views on this for the time being. Just out of curiosity though, wasn't it just the actual durability of the parts GMC were not happy with? As opposed to concept of the kit...

From what I've seen, when you start chasing the 200bhp mark in the N/A set up, you start to lose the driveability of the car, as the powerband starts to tighten up, and low to mid range can be poor. My car is running 185bhp, and 140lb/ft, and has really good driveability with a very flat torque curve from 3000rpm. From what I've seen, moving to the even wilder cam profiles to reach that 200bhp mark, you tend to see the engine not producing decent torque till around 5000rpm, which would make it a real dog to use anywhere other than a race circuit or rally stage.

13th May 2010, 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

You don't need the stroker kit mentioned to achieve 200bhp on your engine. As mentioned previously in this thread, the theory is that the increased capacity should provide more torque, however, I've been led to believe you will not produce as much power in the higher RPM area, so will probably not rev as high compared to non-stroker setup. As there's nobody to show the results of this, I would certainly heed GMC's views on this for the time being. Just out of curiosity though, wasn't it just the actual durability of the parts GMC were not happy with? As opposed to concept of the kit...

From what I've seen, when you start chasing the 200bhp mark in the N/A set up, you start to lose the driveability of the car, as the powerband starts to tighten up, and low to mid range can be poor. My car is running 185bhp, and 140lb/ft, and has really good driveability with a very flat torque curve from 3000rpm. From what I've seen, moving to the even wilder cam profiles to reach that 200bhp mark, you tend to see the engine not producing decent torque till around 5000rpm, which would make it a real dog to use anywhere other than a race circuit or rally stage.

Yeah that's right about GMC's views on that kit- at the end of the day I'm not going to argue with the brains behind the build, just thought it might be a bit different. I wouldn't be overly bothered about driveability as I will have use of another car if I need to/ want to and will do an annual trip to the nurburgring so the car will see a fair bit of track time and think I'd quite enjoy the change in power when hitting the power band, though I fully appreciate that you mean about hunting 15bhp to abandon all the mid range torque. Again, I'll see what gmc have to say when it comes to the appropriate cam profiles- if it's a 15bhp gain by losing my midrange and concentrating on top end then sack it, if it's 35, i'd defo think about it.
Cheers toad

13th May 2010, 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ste

The stroker kit is only justifiable for motor-sport imho. Either to use a TU engine under 1800 regs or to meet weight restrictions.

Anyone who tells me its actually worth 2.5k needs a rock throwing at them. 2.5k out of 6 grand is too much for you really you'd end up making cuts that cancel out the stroker kit. Personally I would budget the money on Brakes, Wheels, Tyres, Suspension & a Diff.

Then with the money left, go to work on the engine. Getting a high spec N/A engine isnt just expensive its difficult and usually takes quite alot of mapping.

Id get in touch with Ricky P. One of his customers valvers has over 170bhp and only has bike bodies and cams. Sub 1k. + a Chipwizard remap on the oem ecu. Then id also speak to Ryan from here. He has spent thousands and thousands and has just over 200bhp N/A and has changed just about everything.

Hope that helps?

Thanks for the advice ste, will look into what Ryan has done to acheive his figure and what it has cost

13th May 2010, 09:21

Also remember that a very highly tuned engine may have problems passing the MOT.

13th May 2010, 09:22

If your aiming for around 200bhp id decide wether you want upwards of 180~, 190~ or 200bhp.

From what ive seen N/A hits a plateau around 180 and things need to be done differently to get above 180. Newman PH3s or Catcam 808's will run on std pistons so upto 180 these are fine but above 180 there's no point trying.

Newmans PH4 (£330) require high comp pistons (£600) but not solid lifters. Couple the PH4 with ITBs (£1000), get some clio 182 PICO injectors, and you will be in the 180 range with a remap. You also don't need another ECU the standard ECU can be mapped (£450) by wayne at chip-wizards perfectly so save the money the aftermarket ECU's are over hyped and a fucking offensive rip off anyway.

However if you want over 190 or 200 everything changes, you'll need alot more internals, and the engine will really need the bottom end rebuilding as its likely the cam will need the limiter putting in the 8500 range. You'll need better cooling, probably a swirl pot aswell, the best oil, a diff, mint tyres, a dry place to park it or your ITBs will probably become water butts. Not that I want to put you off because N/A engines are great when in their element but they really need alot of planning as they are a massive expense.

Just as toad says going above the 180 range makes everything change. Personally for plenty of power on the road turbo is the way forward. Most people are put off by turbo lag but you get N/A lag trust me. My N/A engine is fucking terrible under 4000rpms and when it hits 4000rpm it takes off. Modern turbos spool up quicker than it takes my car to get on cam.

13th May 2010, 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ste

If your aiming for around 200bhp id decide wether you want upwards of 180~, 190~ or 200bhp.

From what ive seen N/A hits a plateau around 180 and things need to be done differently to get above 180. Newman PH3s or Catcam 808's will run on std pistons so upto 180 these are fine but above 180 there's no point trying.

Newmans PH4 (£330) require high comp pistons (£600) but not solid lifters. Couple the PH4 with ITBs (£1000), get some clio 182 PICO injectors, and you will be in the 180 range with a remap. You also don't need another ECU the standard ECU can be mapped (£450) by wayne at chip-wizards perfectly so save the money the aftermarket ECU's are over hyped and a fucking offensive rip off anyway.

However if you want over 190 or 200 everything changes, you'll need alot more internals, and the engine will really need the bottom end rebuilding as its likely the cam will need the limiter putting in the 8500 range. You'll need better cooling, probably a swirl pot aswell, the best oil, a diff, mint tyres, a dry place to park it or your ITBs will probably become water butts. Not that I want to put you off because N/A engines are great when in their element but they really need alot of planning as they are a massive expense.

Just as toad says going above the 180 range makes everything change. Personally for plenty of power on the road turbo is the way forward. Most people are put off by turbo lag but you get N/A lag trust me. My N/A engine is fucking terrible under 4000rpms and when it hits 4000rpm it takes off. Modern turbos spool up quicker than it takes my car to get on cam.

Thanks for the advice on the map mate, the problem is my engine is fucked, 76,000 miles but you can tell it's not too happy. It goes like stink and ran 143 on the dyno at the fly but I'm just not happy with the scraping/worn sound when it's idleing and woundnt trust spending 4k on it tbh. In light of that I decided to get a full new engine as opposed to modding the one I have, I'm not too good on pricing but I'm hoping 6k will see a performance engine build like this.
I agree internals are expensive and I will have to see what I have to spend in September, if i have enough to build it with performance internals and cooling etc I'll do it, if not, I won't compromise other necessities such as LSD, gearbox etc, but would like to have to option to squeeze more ponies out of it by having internals that can cope with the higher revs.
Thanks for all your advice it's really helped me put a guage on the difference between 180 and 200 bhp!

13th May 2010, 10:35

Sounds to me like you don't need much direction. Ill look forward to the build!

13th May 2010, 10:56

If GMC are building your engine. Tell them what power you are looking at, what the cars use is and let them advise on a spec. That kit is one solution though you are heading towards supercharger prices...

13th May 2010, 11:06

Cheers kam, I'll think about boost between now and September but at the mo I just want to run a n/a with itb's even though I know it's going to be silly money... I just love the concept and at the end of the day 190bhp compared with 2 hundred odd in a Saxo both will be bloody quick and bloody expensive
I will ask GMC to give me a spec and quote for a 200bhp, if it's too much I'll ask for a 180bhp spec, seems like the most straightforward way to do it,
thanks again

13th May 2010, 13:30

as said, for the road, boost is a much better option.
fair play though, if you want itb's stick with it but if you want 200bhp+ it will cost you half as much to go down the route of boost instead of n/a.

and despite what anyone says, i'd budget for a stand alone ecu. haven't seen great results myself from the chipwizards maps...

13th May 2010, 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by maddison_vts

as said, for the road, boost is a much better option.
fair play though, if you want itb's stick with it but if you want 200bhp+ it will cost you half as much to go down the route of boost instead of n/a.

and despite what anyone says, i'd budget for a stand alone ecu. haven't seen great results myself from the chipwizards maps...

Yeh I agree that boost would probably be the 'better' option Im just not going to do it for now, I'll always have the option to boost a great n/a setup in the future. I'll prob get standalone as Jon at GMC reccomended, I just wish I had the cash to do it all now! Hopefully I'll have the cash by September and enough of a safety net to leave any work that needs doing on top to gmc!

I'd settle for a little under 200 break if it was going to save me ££££'s so I'll see what cash I have when the time is right

13th May 2010, 14:27

I wouldnt get too hung up over bhp figures. 200bhp is a nice figure but the fastest car will be the one with more power across the rev range under the max figure .

Kev

28th May 2010, 00:13

Very interesting read. Is it me understanding wrong or it is possible to use the stock ecu with ITB's? Because i'm running newman ph4 on standart internal and was looking to replace it. My best opinion was c2 vts inlet manifold, but if it's possible to run itb's on standart ecu i'll go that way.
At the moment my engine is producing 147hp with newman ph4 cams and everything else standart(apart pocketed pistons to swit the high lift).

28th May 2010, 00:22

Yeh you can map your standard ecu as far as I know to run the bodies but reccomended to get aftermarket. I am the guy that started the thread, but now have my own account not a hi-jak from my bro... I'm going to get aftermarket ecu when I itb and cam just think it's the better option...
'if a mods worth doing it's worth doing well''
lol

28th May 2010, 00:41

Ha very interesting
Please anyone else to confirm that information?
From what i've been told it's not possible because the standart ecu is using map and when you go itb's vacuum isn't enaugh and the ecu is getting confused wile stand alone is using tps. Please correct me if i'm worng

28th May 2010, 00:44

About the DP strocker kit here's one greek saxo which claims to be over 200bhp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD8_xrdg8bA

28th May 2010, 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by speed_devil

Ha very interesting
Please anyone else to confirm that information?
From what i've been told it's not possible because the standart ecu is using map and when you go itb's vacuum isn't enaugh and the ecu is getting confused wile stand alone is using tps. Please correct me if i'm worng

Chipwizards is the only place that can do standard ecu that I know phone them

28th May 2010, 08:56

I'm pretty sure gmc develped a signal somethingorother to get around this problem but thought that was appliccable to all ecu's

28th May 2010, 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by speed_devil

Very interesting read. Is it me understanding wrong or it is possible to use the stock ecu with ITB's? Because i'm running newman ph4 on standart internal and was looking to replace it. My best opinion was c2 vts inlet manifold, but if it's possible to run itb's on standart ecu i'll go that way.
At the moment my engine is producing 147hp with newman ph4 cams and everything else standart(apart pocketed pistons to swit the high lift).

Its possible --but you will regret it --very limted what can be changed + if you decide to give up --what value does a remapped ecu have --bugger-all.
a stand alone ,you will always be able to sell or use on a different type of car