Calling everyone with throttle bodies...

17th May 2010, 21:18

going to be doing a GSXR throttle bodie conversion on my 8v in the next few months, so in the meantime im gathering information in order to make it work properly and work well!

i know i need brake servo vaccum, TPS and air temp sensor, is there anything else i will need to keep? or can i sack everything else off? icv, map sensor etc etc...

any help/ advice and ASW pictures are more then welcome

pete-vtr

17th May 2010, 21:22

if your going that route your best off getting in touch with sandy/colin as they do a kit for the bodies- manifold/trumpets etc etc, highly thought of and look very well.

18th May 2010, 11:04

Brake servo vacuum runs off number 1 cylinder on the custom inlet.
TPS- use the gsxr one
Use standard temp sensor and mount it between the 4 trumpets in the middle. On the base plate of the air filter.

18th May 2010, 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

if your going that route your best off getting in touch with sandy/colin as they do a kit for the bodies- manifold/trumpets etc etc, highly thought of and look very well.

hes making his own inlet for them

18th May 2010, 14:32

i wonder if it will be any good. Goodluck

18th May 2010, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparco_Tom

Brake servo vacuum runs off number 1 cylinder on the custom inlet.
TPS- use the gsxr one
Use standard temp sensor and mount it between the 4 trumpets in the middle. On the base plate of the air filter.

smashing mate just what i needed that!

could i locate the brake servo vaccum from the actual bodie itself on cylinder1? or does it ideally need to be from the manifold via a takeoff

on a side note, manifold and trumpets will be made by an experienced motorcycle fabricator, this isnt going to be a back alley DIY bodge together

18th May 2010, 14:58

the vacuums on all my engines have been on the manifold itself on cylinder 1. So i would just get it done like that.

18th May 2010, 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparco_Tom

the vacuums on all my engines have been on the manifold itself on cylinder 1. So i would just get it done like that.

no problem mate will have to tap a hole and fit a hydrolics fitting for vaccum.

just thort of something else... what happens to the vaccum pipe that comes from under the ecu?

whats it actually for?

block it off?

18th May 2010, 15:12

thats from the carbon canister. Remove it, bung it up, tuck it somewhere.
It is to do with emissions

18th May 2010, 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparco_Tom

thats from the carbon canister. Remove it, bung it up, tuck it somewhere.
It is to do with emissions

thanks for answering all my questions mate!

18th May 2010, 15:33

not a problem

18th May 2010, 15:50

iv just had a thought tom,

when designing the manifold length and trumpets.

the ATpower throttle bodies use a short inlet and long trumpets, where as othe kits iv seen are often the other way round...

as far as i know having a longer trumpet length is good for drivabilty, torque

would be good to design them around information gathered, instead of guessing and going off other kits

can you shed some light on this??

18th May 2010, 15:54

iirc the overal length is what really matters. pm sandy brown

18th May 2010, 15:54

I think the AT bodies bolt directly to the head where as others [Jenvey etc] use an inlet manifold where the bodies bolt to. I think it is the full inlet length not just the length of the trumpet itself. The longer it all is the better the midrange but you sacrifice top end. What are you going to be using the car/engine for?

18th May 2010, 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparco_Tom

iirc the overal length is what really matters. pm sandy brown

cheers tom, you've been a big help

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluenotesmiley

I think the AT bodies bolt directly to the head where as others [Jenvey etc] use an inlet manifold where the bodies bolt to. I think it is the full inlet length not just the length of the trumpet itself. The longer it all is the better the midrange but you sacrifice top end. What are you going to be using the car/engine for?

right im with you now, the longer the full setup the better mid-range power and torque they will produce.

the car will be used on a daily basis, and regular spirited B road blasts so having good mid-range power is preferable over having all the power at the top end. Need to measure from the inlet ports to just over the top of the scuttle to get a decent length setup with good inlet tracts

18th May 2010, 16:26

iirc you idealy want an inlet length of about 15"s but that does seam quiet a lot and also you dont want them within 2"s of the bulk head

18th May 2010, 16:28

"The three main things you must achieve are an inlet length (from cylinder head to the end of the trumpets) of at least 15 inches, as if this is not achieved, all the power will be at very high revs and a reduction in low speed power.

Secondly, it is no good having a system that makes the trumpets nearer than 2 inches away from the bulkhead as this will restrict air flow and finally it is no good sucking hot air from the back of the engine. So unless you can fit an unrestricted air box that draws air from the front of the car you are wasting your time. If you were to fit a throttle body kit that does not achieve all these functions it is doubtful it will be of much if any advantage over the single one it replaces."

18th May 2010, 16:33

I recall around around a 330mm inlet length as being a good target on the 16v, can't remember where I got it from or from whom - hrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

18th May 2010, 17:34

there is only enough room for 11" without cutting the scuttle, another inch to compensate any minor bends, round about 12".

taken from DTA website;

Quote:

What is the correct overall system length?
Induction length is one of the most important aspects of fuelling performance engines. In our experience an under-length system is the greatest cause of disapointment, with loss of up to 1/3 of power potential. There are a number of good books on the subject and the serious developer is referred to these and, in particular, dyno trials. A guide figure, from the face of the trumpet to the centre of the valve head is 350mm for a 9,000 RPM engine. Other RPM are proportional, i.e. for 18,000 RPM the figure is ca 175mm.

350mm is optimal for a 9k revving engine, anyone know the overall length of the ATpower setup?

i only want to be revving to 7k max aiming for good mid-range torque and power, aswell as good drivability. i will be using an 8v blacktop head with either a PT11 or PT40 with roller-rocker gear. idealy id only want to cut circular holes in the scuttle without removing a section...

any suggestions

18th May 2010, 18:31

tbh mate the only real thing to do is chop a large section out the scuttle

18th May 2010, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparco_Tom

tbh mate the only real thing to do is chop a large section out the scuttle

is very satisfying to do, I just wish I'd have been a bit more careful with the angle grinder on the corners

18th May 2010, 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparco_Tom

tbh mate the only real thing to do is chop a large section out the scuttle

if i have to chop the scuttle to get good tract length for decent mid-range then so be it! function is much more important over looks.

although i may get away with just cutting 4 holes as mentioned before and run the trumpets through the holes to gain longer inlet length...

18th May 2010, 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by PETE-VTR

iv just had a thought tom,

when designing the manifold length and trumpets.

the ATpower throttle bodies use a short inlet and long trumpets, where as othe kits iv seen are often the other way round...

as far as i know having a longer trumpet length is good for drivabilty, torque

would be good to design them around information gathered, instead of guessing and going off other kits

can you shed some light on this??

if you buy the atp/gmc bodies you have no prolems to sort out
they have a servo connector ,which takes std hose fitting ,you use std throttle cable ,std tps sensor ,std fuel rail ,all you need to complete the job is in the price of the bodies -- no one else can say that because none of them are complete kits --

fitting time t--here is none to beat them either --just check the jenvey group buy thread ---lots of niggling fitting problems .
I have sold a lot of sets now and every engine builder that has used them has told me they will not be using anything else ,as the fitting time is so quick and simple .
we also have a ready drilled air filter assembly ,just screw off trumpets and ift --refit trumepts --£140 --you can,t get simpler than that .
I do not wish to start up the argument regarding performance ,but if I can get well over 200 with them ,then there is none that can be much if any better .
It may seem cheap buying s/h bike bodies - but add all the other bits on and the ease of fitment --and of course the full anodised colour ""bling"finish and there is no other rational choice .
the old saying --"long after the price is forgotten the quality is remebered"

and to finish off --they are on the shelf NOW in various colours --no waiting for 4 weeks for someone to make something,or in some cases longer

18th May 2010, 21:33

have to say that i am very happy with my AT power bodies, seem to work very well.

also look at toad engine seem to work well with that spec too, also seem to show good result on willsy engine too, as NMS said that his figures where the best figures they seen on that spec before i.e. 708 cams and standard bottom end.

so they do seem to flow well, but i think this is about vtr engine not vts, unsure if the at power ones will fit a vtr engine, unless he on about a vts engine.

john will correct that if i am wrong

just abit of information on the at power ones, i have nothing against other bodies because for one i have not used others, but i am happy with my bodies.

18th May 2010, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

if you buy the atp/gmc bodies you have no prolems to sort out
they have a servo connector ,which takes std hose fitting ,you use std throttle cable ,std tps sensor ,std fuel rail ,all you need to complete the job is in the price of the bodies -- no one else can say that because none of them are complete kits --

fitting time t--here is none to beat them either --just check the jenvey group buy thread ---lots of niggling fitting problems .
I have sold a lot of sets now and every engine builder that has used them has told me they will not be using anything else ,as the fitting time is so quick and simple .
we also have a ready drilled air filter assembly ,just screw off trumpets and ift --refit trumepts --£140 --you can,t get simpler than that .
I do not wish to start up the argument regarding performance ,but if I can get well over 200 with them ,then there is none that can be much if any better .
It may seem cheap buying s/h bike bodies - but add all the other bits on and the ease of fitment --and of course the full anodised colour ""bling"finish and there is no other rational choice .
the old saying --"long after the price is forgotten the quality is remebered"

and to finish off --they are on the shelf NOW in various colours --no waiting for 4 weeks for someone to make something,or in some cases longer

there may have been fitting problems with the jenvey kit but we did what you say you couldnt and simply got them to change the design

18th May 2010, 23:38

do you not think its perhaps they now feel they have to do something and can no longer sit back and say --we have the only system --which they could for a long time .
the ATP system is taking a lot of buisness from them and not just for saxo,s ,but across the range of cars
I will be more impressed when they change the very fiddly adjusters and spring clip affair that joins the bodies together .
As I have already said --the jenveys work fine --just a very bitty and fiddly system to put together

what i did was to get a better system made --I gave up trying to get them to change--life is too short -and ten years is long enough to correct design faults that should never have been there in the first place.

18th May 2010, 23:40

I would make a system for the vtr ,but there is just not enough volume in the vtr s .I made inlet maniflds for them years ago and still have some,and no not for the silver top engines --only the black top heads--just too small a market .
you get 20 people together and i will make them

19th May 2010, 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

I would make a system for the vtr ,but there is just not enough volume in the vtr s .I made inlet maniflds for them years ago and still have some,and no not for the silver top engines --only the black top heads--just too small a market .
you get 20 people together and i will make them

im using the head with the 00 00 port spacing, you have any inlets lying around? price please john

believe me if i had £800 odd quid to spend on itbs, id buy ATpower...

but im doing it all for £800, inc management.

i aim to make good midrange power and torque over bhp, after all torque turns wheels, bhp turns heads

19th May 2010, 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

do you not think its perhaps they now feel they have to do something and can no longer sit back and say --we have the only system --which they could for a long time .
the ATP system is taking a lot of buisness from them and not just for saxo,s ,but across the range of cars
I will be more impressed when they change the very fiddly adjusters and spring clip affair that joins the bodies together .
As I have already said --the jenveys work fine --just a very bitty and fiddly system to put together

what i did was to get a better system made --I gave up trying to get them to change--life is too short -and ten years is long enough to correct design faults that should never have been there in the first place.

I did a nice name drop for the ATP ones as competition and told them you cannot call it a kit if it does not fit together then they were very helpful. Nothing like a bit of competition to improve products

19th May 2010, 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by PETE-VTR

im using the head with the 00 00 port spacing, you have any inlets lying around? price please john

believe me if i had £800 odd quid to spend on itbs, id buy ATpower...

but im doing it all for £800, inc management.

i aim to make good midrange power and torque over bhp, after all torque turns wheels, bhp turns heads

last ones I had were 40mm dia --need serious seat mods + big cut outs in pistons to fit them --but alas all gone
YES i HAVE MANIFLDS FOR THAT HEAD (BLACK TOP /AX TYPE.,
made to take any type of t/body --from square flange to ovel dcoe=+idf type
ring me

19th May 2010, 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

last ones I had were 40mm dia --need serious seat mods + big cut outs in pistons to fit them --but alas all gone
YES i HAVE MANIFLDS FOR THAT HEAD (BLACK TOP /AX TYPE.,
made to take any type of t/body --from square flange to ovel dcoe=+idf type
ring me

you keep saying they only fit black top heads, but the early silver tops have the same port spacing as the black tops, which is what petes got i think

19th May 2010, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffchiz

you keep saying they only fit black top heads, but the early silver tops have the same port spacing as the black tops, which is what petes got i think

yeah iv got a blacktop non-roller head on my workbench atm and an early silvertop both with same port spacings.

will ring you tomorro john to enquire about the price, if its cheap then i may take one otherwise this 'budget' build is going to turn out expensive...