Track VTR - a bit more power (not your usual dreamer thread)

1st July 2010, 23:23

So, I've done a couple of trackdays now in my VTR (see my project thread), and if I'm honest it has gone very well. Handling wise even with a pretty basic setup its quick through the corners but I could do with some extra power on the straights/accelerating out of tight corners.

Now I don't want any responses of 'buy a VTS lump' as quite frankly my car is less than a second slower than a standard VTS around Anglesey track. Even a modded VTS isn't that much quicker at all. Now around a month ago I thought I won't be spending any more money on the car and save for something faster (was looking at EP3 civics). However after a few trackdays, I haven't been impressed with them (maybe they just weren't driven well but..) the VTR keeps up with them pretty well and with a little more power would be able to overtake on the straights.

If I went down the low boost turbo or supercharger setup how much am I looking at for a conversion (not with low comp pistons etc) - say keeping boost around 5/6/7 psi? Obviously it would have to be reliable and I'm easily willing to compromise power for reliability as that is probably the biggest issue for me. I'm not chasing any power figures as thats not what I'm after, I'm after drivability.

Engine has been dyno'd at 112bhp and 119bhp on different rollers (custom induction kit, 4-2-1 manifold & full supersprint exhaust system).

I have searched and read a lot of information but after something tailored for my needs. Answers on a postcard please along with rough costs, post any links that will be beneficial to me. I've heard a lot of good things about GMC, especially on supercharging and John most certainly knows his stuff, but i'll hear what you lot have to say as I know a few people on here are doing similar projects (VTR & VTS engines). Post away guys

1st July 2010, 23:39

i know cit tuning do a bolt on turbo kit ... thts max on standard internals 7psi same as ford fiesta rs turbo ... so around 130-150 bhp ...... would u not be more interested in throttle bodies and a rallye cam? less to worrie about turbo failure warm up and warm down times etc.... i know very little about super chargers so ill let sum 1 else answer that... gmc and pug 1 off are my personal prefernces and kam racing but dont beilieve they have a drive in work shop...

1st July 2010, 23:41

Having gone down a similar route, I wouldn't waste my money with a high lift cam.

Low boost turbo setup is what I'd consider personally.

1st July 2010, 23:42

sorry.. my personal opinion would be throttle bodies fast road cam standalone management... good power good reliability very driveable and wen u relli wanted to give it the beans u could ... but by no means cheap....

1st July 2010, 23:45

To get power in excess of say 130bhp ATF, I'd say you're going to need pocketed pistons, a fairly wild camshaft, throttle bodies, close ratio gearbox etc.

Turbo would be better value for money imo.

I had a Kent PT40 in my VTR - ran with standard ECU and breathing mods. After having the timing adjusted on the rollers, it made 118bhp ATF. In the real world, very little/ no difference between a 'breathed' VTR.

1st July 2010, 23:50

you dont want to fit a vts engine but your willing to spend thousands on a turbo kit? if you want to spend thousnds on a turbo kit surely buying a vts engine for a few hundred quid would only put a dent in the total build cost?

anyway here are some links to some turbo/supercharger kits:
http://www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk/index...roducts_id=249
http://www.cituninguk.com/ProductList.aspx
throttle bodies:
http://www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk/index...749145f3e9435c
http://www.kamracing.co.uk/index.php...6-16v-vts.html

obviously with t/b's you will want ph4 cam to make the most of them and after market management unless you get your ecu remapped

1st July 2010, 23:57

Definitely don't want to go down the cammed/throttle bodied route as like Leeum has said a low boost turbo conversion would give similar power (if not more), and would give a lot more torque. Also with a small turbo there would virtually be any lag!
Jeffchiz - Honestly, after driving a standard VTS I wasn't impressed at all. It felt exactly the same as my VTR part from revving higher and a little more power lower down the rev range, but changing down a gear solves that.. Personally I don't see the point in doing a VTS conversion as well as supercharging or turbo'ing as I'm not after performance figures, hence not needing the extra power from the 16v engine. I reckon 140-150bhp would do me fine, especially with the extra torque.

2nd July 2010, 00:03

thats fair enough... if that be the case id say then deffo go for the low boost turbo kit visit cituning online " google it " and look at there boild on diy turbo kits loads of people have them and ive not heard anything bad yeh seems like the cheapest easiest and best route atm but with out sounding rude its all dependant on how much money u want to spend... with a supercharger there would b no lag any how cuz its crank driven and constantly boosting isnt it? .... but deffo gmc for supercharger

2nd July 2010, 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryansaxo2010

thats fair enough... if that be the case id say then deffo go for the low boost turbo kit visit cituning online " google it " and look at there boild on diy turbo kits loads of people have them and ive not heard anything bad yeh seems like the cheapest easiest and best route atm but with out sounding rude its all dependant on how much money u want to spend... with a supercharger there would b no lag any how cuz its crank driven and constantly boosting isnt it? .... but deffo gmc for supercharger

i gave him a link to the cituning turbo kits lol

2nd July 2010, 00:09

The cituning turbo manifolds don't look too great - primary length is huge, but I guess turbos aren't *too* fussy about that sort of thing. I'd probably look into fitting a turbo to a standard manifold with the close coupled CAT removed - seen a few do that with good results.

2nd July 2010, 00:10

ive gotta say if you didnt feel any difference between a vtr and vts god knows what vts you were in, i couldnt believe the difference in power from my vtr engine to my vts (after owning a vts, there is no way i could drive a vtr again, my mates car seams so slugglish to me now) but thats just me, its your car up to you what you want to do mate

2nd July 2010, 00:10

Thanks for the links guys, I've already been looking at the Cituing kits but I know there is still quite a bit to buy on top of that.

2nd July 2010, 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffchiz

ive gotta say if you didnt feel any difference between a vtr and vts god knows what vts you were in, i couldnt believe the difference in power from my vtr engine to my vts (aftger owning a vts, there is no way i could drive a vtr again, my mates car seams so slugglish to me know) but thats just me, its your car up to you what you want to do mate

Haha

, it was a 97reg VTS with nearly 125,000 miles on it and probably needed a service lol. Also around Anglesey yesterday there was a VTS - unsure on the spec but I could have swore it had bodies on it, and that was lapping around 1 or 2 seconds quicker than me which isn't much really considering the spec.

I'll have a look around though with the possibility of starting it around december/january time or earlier.

2nd July 2010, 00:16

if you buy the full tubo kits im pretty sure its only management you need to buy

2nd July 2010, 00:19

ive seen loads of people do tht closed cat manifold thing but neva really heard anything about it... i know its supposed to be cheaper but they act any gd? ...... yeh i was thinking the same my vts is camed with a ported n polished head 1.4 box n vairous other nibbles and its a joy to drive pisses allover my mates vtr and alot else too lol.... u deffo convinsed u wouldnt be interested in a good conversion? ..... whack a civic type r engine in and have something deadly.. " no dont cuz ive always wanted to do tht but cant afford to " have u visited hi flow heads there pritty shit hot and always willing to help and advise good prices too

2nd July 2010, 00:20

easy have a go in my quiky few weeks time

2nd July 2010, 00:30

I was going to mention you Gav! How much you reckon it would cost to source a low boost setup and get it all running (pretty handy with a spanner) so could fit it all myself. What fueling options are there - Mf2 + 5th injector, Dastek, standalone? Predator ECU is a no go for me as I'm a 3 plugger and i've been waiting for over 12 months so not expecting it to be around in 4 or 5 months time, I guess Omex or Emerald are the only real options on standalone.

EDIT: I've read your guide you did a while ago. Ultimately, I am on a budget and what you've got listed there would do me fine I think. The main factor has to reliability though, that most certainly comes way before power. Its just trying to source the parts is pretty hard, although i'm not looking to buy anything yet so I don't even know why i'm looking

.

2nd July 2010, 21:33

Mtech automotive do a V4 standalone ECU which can do boost or bodies and is cheasper in comparison with other makers... I have it on my 206 on 45mm T/Bodies and it gave 183HP from the standard 138HP engine... worth a look

2nd July 2010, 21:39

speed coming out corners?

Diff...

decent box, s1 rallye or xsi

the speed you can go in and out the corner will be alot better, you car will lap faster than a vts

3rd July 2010, 06:57

I dont see how you can think that your vtr is just as quick as a vts in standard form when youve only gotbreathing mods, My vtr had those along with quickshift but when put vts in i was shocked at how much quicker it was and how much it pulled.

But if you just put like 1.3 rallye box with a quife, better suspension setup, slicks, etc you would have the power to come out from the corners, the quife to be faster and tighter along with suspension setup round the corners.

Superchargers are better for track as you get the power straight from the go.

3rd July 2010, 08:58

The vts round anglesey wasnt much quicker but maybe it was shit driving or that your driving was much better. So imagine what you could do in a vts.....

3rd July 2010, 09:06

Try borrowing a mate's VTS for an afternoon or something before dismissing a 16v lump.

3rd July 2010, 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeumH

Try borrowing a mate's VTS for an afternoon or something before dismissing a 16v lump.

thats actually a good idea then you can make your mind up based on your own experience, not just us telling you to get a 16v lump lol

3rd July 2010, 12:25

The person driving the vts must of been driving poorly, or you are a very quick driver.

But trust most people there is a big difference between vtr and vts.

Maybe take a vts round the track it will show you.

3rd July 2010, 14:37

Seemed to be driving pretty well but its like as though he couldn't catch up with me easily at all. Maybe he had problems - who knows!

Yates - your definitely right about a decent box with diff. I think an S1 rallye box is a bit short on a VTR as you top out at around 105 iirc, Xsi would be better I think with an ATB diff.

Maybe the VTS I drove was a poor car then, but after reading what AXRacing has said in other threads - is it really worth doing a VTS conversion? For the price of the conversion (say £350 engine+ancillaries, £300+ decent gearbox) - say £500-£650 I would have 120bhp. Where as as I could put that towards a decent low boost setup (I reckon around £1.3-£1.5k) i'd have around 150-160bhp boosting at 6 or 7 psi which would be a lot quicker than a cammed VTS. You only have to have a look at Blocks turbo'd/throttle bodied VTS which has something like 200.1bhp and that is bloody quick!

Fair enough if you want to go down the cammed/throttle bodied route, I can see 8v is pretty pointless really as the gains are bigger with the 16v engine. I know I would see further gains with a low boost VTS conversion rather than on an 8v but as I said, I'm not chasing figures and imo once over 150bhp you start getting traction problems which isn't something I want. I'll keep researching though and all your advice is valuable to me - I do read and take each point in

, I'm just suggesting things from my point of view - could be wrong or right, I don't know

3rd July 2010, 15:12

Cant judge vts by driving an old warn out 1997 vts buddy.....lol....

3rd July 2010, 16:37

but got to think about the repair cost as a turbo vtr will not last too long well compared to the cammed vts well normally... so have to look at that too.

but also he might not be pushing the car as much as you.. you dont know what the other car was doing.

but a 120 bhp car vs 90-100 bhp car there is going to be a difference...

andy

3rd July 2010, 16:41

a conversion doesnt have to cost £600, mine cost me £300 and that was with a brand new fan and rad, engine, loom, gearbox and unlocked ecu so £300 for 30bhp is the best bang for buck you'll get ANYWHERE, £10 for 1bhp is very cheap lol

3rd July 2010, 17:18

Ye tuning a 8v may not be much gains to be had but what about wild cams and bodies, not sure what figures but a low boost setup costing 1.5k-2k anit going to be a good setup and will most likely need parts repalcing like a new turbos £800+ rather than going for a used one, it could go on. Ben vts spent 5k i think on a 5psi setup and that because he's used all new parts and it will be reliable.

A turbo setup aint really best for track use anyway, Lad i know has a 360bhp del sol running 0.9 bar and uses his for track alot and says now wishes he'd gone bodies and short box but his turbos been custom built for track like it kicks in fully at like 2500 or 3k but its the quickest recorded del sol in the uk.

3rd July 2010, 18:49

A turbo vtr will ruin a cammed vts. So if you do go that route im sure you wont be disappointed. The only concern would be how long the engine on stock internals would last.

3rd July 2010, 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by saxo_ron

A turbo vtr will ruin a cammed vts. So if you do go that route im sure you wont be disappointed. The only concern would be how long the engine on stock internals would last.

well yea no one is saying a turbo'd vtr is slower than a vts, thats pretty obvious lol

3rd July 2010, 19:31

so your saying a bit of cotton and a backbox has shot u up to just under a vts engine? even if it has your still missing the rev limiter. if your really serious about this dw about the engine. maybe some coilovers, uprated suspension bushes and ripping your backseats and heater matrix out will make it better. id do this before considering power tbh

3rd July 2010, 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by saxo_ron

A turbo vtr will ruin a cammed vts. So if you do go that route im sure you wont be disappointed. The only concern would be how long the engine on stock internals would last.

on a track? id give it 2 laps

3rd July 2010, 19:32

Thing is, according to many sources on the net - 6 or 7 psi is perfectly acceptable on stock internals, even 9 psi if you get the fueling right.

Doubt I would be running standalone as £600 for an omex + mapping doesn't warrant the power I till get out of it. A Dastek + mapping is something like the route I would go down, no 5th injector stuff as I think that is pretty much a botched job. I do agree with you lot though, a cammed VTS will be much more reliable than a VTR turbo (usually), but the difference is a VTR turbo - 150, 160bhp, cammed/throttle bodied VTS 160+bhp, no contest imo. The turbo would win every time, especially with the kind of delivery i'm after. Above 160bhp your looking at high comps and a fair bit of head work to get decent power out of an N/A setup and your compromising the power lower down the rev range.

As I said, i'll have a think about it. Even a cheap VTR turbo conversion, if it doesn't happen to last very long, a new VTR block isn't much at all, or even still I could convert to a VTS engine and take a long the turbo kit with me (changing the manifold of course).

3rd July 2010, 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxo0pko0xx

on a track? id give it 2 laps

No I'm not saying my VTR is as quick as a VTS in a straight line but around a track it seemed to be. Not sure if I was driving like a mad man but I never once felt out of control at all and always kept it within the limits.

There are plenty of track cars with low boost setups running standard internals. Its all to do with fueling and not being greedy with the power! Its easy to say 'lets up it to 10 or 12psi', yeah its fine for a while but then you start to bugger the engine up. If you believe a low boost setup needs low comp pistons and forged rods you need to research a bit...

3rd July 2010, 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harv

No I'm not saying my VTR is as quick as a VTS in a straight line but around a track it seemed to be. Not sure if I was driving like a mad man but I never once felt out of control at all and always kept it within the limits.

There are plenty of track cars with low boost setups running standard internals. Its all to do with fueling and not being greedy with the power! Its easy to say 'lets up it to 10 or 12psi', yeah its fine for a while but then you start to bugger the engine up. If you believe a low boost setup needs low comp pistons and forged rods you need to research a bit...

tbh mate i think you already know what to do, and your educating poeple rather than being educated on this!

Id go with your idea of low boost on the R engine. Also wont cost k's n k's for somthing that will keep u entertained by the sounds of it. Also as you said if anything did go on the vtr engine which is unlikley as they are perfectly fine for low boost then heyre only like £50 for a replacemnt. Eassyyy

3rd July 2010, 20:46

I disagree with you saying vtr turbo with 160bhp will be quicker to vts bodied with same power as vts box is shorter, cams will higher revs and along with extra 8v will pull better and power straight from the off rather than waiting for the turbo to kick in.

3rd July 2010, 20:54

i think this thread was abit pointless as seem to me that you already had an idea of what you wanted to do.

i never said you was driving like a mad man, just maybe the vts wasnt as good as driver. as if he get bad exit speeds from the corners he will struggle to get to you down the straight... i vts vs vtr with same driver the vts will take it which is fact as power will just take over... but i can see what your saying i think you just want a turbo really in your heart!

maybe a supercharger! haha

3rd July 2010, 22:47

Danny - you could be right but was just wanting a few extra opinions as there is a select few on here that know much more than I do and give good advice. I think i'm right though, even in some of John's threads (John from GMC) he says a low boost setup is fine at around 6 or 7 psi. Its exactly the same as the Renault 5 GTT owners, 'lets up the boost to 12 psi and see what happens'. BOOM - engine goes bang, surprise surprise

.

Jsdvtr - The thing with a low boost setup, the turbo spools up a lot quicker than say a 300bhp engine (if spec'd correctly), with a small turbo there will virtually be no lag and the torque will be much higher than a throttle bodied VTS. I guess its all about N/A vs boost but i'm a firm believer boost is better. Raunchz has been with bodies, now going boost (supercharged) - surely that says something? (all beit at a much higher spec than I would be going for). I'll see what happens anyway, thanks for the input though. Appreciate it people expressing their opinions with a decent answer!

Andy, your right - I do

. I don't think the guy in the VTS was a bad driver, had good lines and stuff, maybe the car wasn't quite right as it spent all morning sitting in the carpark jacked up with the owner fiddling around with something underneath. Ohh well, its nothing to worry about

. Its not a pointless thread, just wanted some peoples views on the situation. I know a lot of people with bodied VTS engines or previously had bodied vts' (especially on Shed) that say there not that special. Look at AlexR, it appears he didn't really rate Ryans saxo when he owned it, supposed its a much smoother delivery than a boosted engine. Again thanks for the input, I appreciated sensible and knowledgeable answers.

I'll see what happens in the next few months from scouting the forums and see if I can find anything I'm after, if not VTS engine it is

.

3rd July 2010, 22:56

The only reason I'm for going boost, is because I want more power - not a different shape power delivery

BUT I'm going s/c as you can't beat the linear power delivery for making the car predictable in the way it delivers the power and it'll happily deliver power the more you rev all the way to the limiter

I've not driven a turbo saxo, but can imagine it'd be hard to be quick with a low boost setup on the track as it runs out of puff higher up in the revs due to the turbo size? On the road 3k-6k and it'll pull like a train, but I prefer something that will pull all the way to the limiter and not 'kick in' as such.

Decide on the type of power delivery you want. I'd believe a 160bhp NA car would be quicker than a low boost vtr, but the gearbox type would help.

I'd take a TBd/cammed vts over a low boost vtr anyday of the week - will be a much more rewarding car to drive + the upped limiter will be useful + the noise would be superb.

However, a high boost turbo could be a weapon on the track.

3rd July 2010, 22:58

where did you spend most of your time rev wise on the track? 4-6k ?

You'll want a setup that'll deliver most power in those revs without losing too much torque lower down for overtaking.

Either go NA or go high boost turbo. You're budget doesn't seem to be that bit so I'd rule out a turbo tbh.

4th July 2010, 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffchiz

well yea no one is saying a turbo'd vtr is slower than a vts, thats pretty obvious lol

The post wasnt in disagreement with anyone was just aimed toward 'op' as an observation. Yes its obvious when your in the know but i dont know the lads level of knowledge

4th July 2010, 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by saxo_ron

The post wasnt in disagreement with anyone was just aimed toward 'op' as an observation. Yes its obvious when your in the know but i dont know the lads level of knowledge

ok fair enough

4th July 2010, 13:24

Havent read the relys but the fact you dont want a 16v lump because a vts is only slightly faster around track proves you have no idea.

Thats like me saying because i can pass most m3's on track in my 2.5 theres no point getting a m3

youve obviously met a lot of "slower" drivers. Think how much faster youd be with another 30hp which the 16v has out of the box.

16v it and spend the change on more days improving your driving.

4th July 2010, 14:49

diff diff diff diff diff!

you get a turbo and them tight corners you are just going to spin like an epeleptic in a disco

my standard s, and then when it was cammed just span coming out of some corners, esp tight ones it makes a massive difference, when me and ron were on track at croft together he was quite a bit ahead and i caught him, it wasnt shit driving by ron as hes a cracking drive who knows the limits, it was the fact that i was carrying alot more speed in the corners and coming out, i caught up to him too, and then span out lol

decent suspension, diff and tyres will make alot more difference to start, and then look at changing engine.

also what gears do you use on this track? 1st and 2nd with vtr n vts its down to driver really, but 3rd is there the huge difference is, and 4ths even better. Most tracks i seem to be in 3rd and 4th. Im not going to take away the fact that you were only a second behind, you obviously have big balls and he doesnt. How long does it take you to go around this track and is there many straights? As if its a quick circuit and not many straights i can believe (not saying i dont anyway) that you could quite easily be sat on a vts arse

oh and i dont think it matters if the s he droves a right dog, its still at least 22bhp difference which you should notice

4th July 2010, 22:14

I was pretty much living between 4k-6100rpm the whole day and agree that is where the power needs to be.

Yates - Yeah I was predominantly in 3rd and 4th gear, sometimes 2nd in tight corners but only to exit the corner a little quicker - say from 5k onwards. Didn't go anywhere 5th gear as 6k rpm is roughly 80mph in 3rd! I do definitely need a better box with a diff but i'll make my mind up and what box at a later date once I've finalised the engine plans. Theres no point buying an XSI box if I do go down the turbo route if you get my drift?

I'll wait until Gav has finished his and pop over one day to have a snoop around until I decide anything fully.

4th July 2010, 23:23

get a diff then!

why is there no point in xsi box? i duno what would suit turbo best like, xsi is awesome for a s on bodies though

4th July 2010, 23:45

low boost projects allways grow arms and legs tho starts off at a few quid ends up £1500 but anyway i done my conversion to my track ax made the manifold and everything only had material costs and mapping but defo worth it .5 bar and i was impressed with the way it goes.
colin

5th July 2010, 00:16

A VTS gearbox should still be perfectly useable with a low boost turbo setup - I'd lob one of those in with an LSD for now.

5th July 2010, 05:56

Get a 172, it will end up cheaper in the long term and probably more reliable too (I can't believe I just said a Renault is reliable

)

7th July 2010, 00:23

'lets up the boost to 12 psi and see what happens'. BOOM - engine goes bang, surprise surprise- line made me laugh

I think i would go with the turbo to be fair not just because i think you would get better results with hardly any lag but i just think its a alittle different. I know a quite a few people have put turbos on them but i still havent seen one in the flesh

9th July 2010, 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by qpr4eva4

'lets up the boost to 12 psi and see what happens'. BOOM - engine goes bang, surprise surprise- line made me laugh

I think i would go with the turbo to be fair not just because i think you would get better results with hardly any lag but i just think its a alittle different. I know a quite a few people have put turbos on them but i still havent seen one in the flesh

i have a few pix up on ssc so have a look there. This one is finished!

colin

9th July 2010, 22:59

theres a white saxo that heads up the cheltnam cruise on a sunday... was anialating everything at french car show too ... thts turboed with polycarbonate windows and 2 opm bucket seats... and holy shit is it fast was pissing all over red top turbos last sunday nite and scoobys wouldnt race it lol.. its all about the money tho man