Supercharger setup?

1. jsdvtr Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: May 2007 morecambe Posts: 4286 2003 vtr/s

   #1 12th July 2010, 18:52

   What sort of cost is it to build supercharged engine, what power is a good figure to get from chargers? Been thinking about becasue get the power from the work go and is alot less strain on everything over a turbo setup. Maybe a guide of figures, prices, etc would be good.
   
   Also would like to know what sort of power the driveshafts, gearbox, etc can take like the usual problems get with running boost.
2. 3cott Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Mar 2008 Rotherham Posts: 4614 Black mk2 vts

   #2 12th July 2010, 18:55

   Ring GMC

   1 user thanked this post: raunchz
3. raunchz Saxperience Addict Joined: Jul 2005 Solihull / Bournemouth Posts: 14233 2015 Lapiz Blue Golf R

   #3 12th July 2010, 18:59

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by 3cott Ring GMC

   +1
   
   the s/c setups aren't cheap to do.
4. maddison_vts Established Member Joined: Sep 2008 Torbay Posts: 1565 2000 phase 2 Saxo VTS Turbo 2000 Nissan 200sx S14a

   #4 12th July 2010, 19:54

   as far as i'm aware, you never need to change the driveshafts.
   gearboxes, there are be4 conversions for mega bucks or you could just use the ma and have a bit of mechanical sympathy.
   
   getting power from a supercharger is much more expensive than using a turbo.
   
   however, there is the big debate of the supercharger being a linear power delivery and turbo just causing wheelspin. i never have that issue unless its wet but i can't really imagine any fwd car with 200bhp+ with torque being almost as high let alone 250bhp+ getting much traction in the wet.
5. user_9396 Established Member Joined: Apr 2006 torquay (England) Posts: 1993 supercharged vts. 1.1 saxo. accord type r

   #5 13th July 2010, 14:39

   s/c conversion realistically set u back in excess of £4000 + to do it right
   then you will at least want a diff in the ma box. thats around £950 with roconditioning 2.
   depending on power u are looking for it can add up m8.
   like already stated, ring john at gmc
6. user_42892 Frequent Poster Joined: Mar 2010 high wycombe Posts: 848 Astra VXR

   #6 13th July 2010, 15:14

   evrything you need is in here
   http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=293691
7. VTSTomE Established Member Joined: Apr 2008 Hereford Posts: 1381 Indigo 16v Rallye + 2 VTS's

   #7 16th July 2010, 22:24

   Costs more like 6k + management, mapping and labour.
   3750 for the charger kit, intercooler and boost pipes etc. Then 2250 to build a proper bottom end including clutch etc.
   Or you could go for a lower budget without forged pistons but lower boost.
8. boz Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2005 somewhere on this planet, doing something..... around northumberland or in the middle of the sea Posts: 8774 Mk2 VTS track mk1 turbo vts scooby engined 2CV

   #8 17th July 2010, 09:32

   the charger kit isnt cheap, the main cost of the setup is your mapping and getting old of a decent management system and clutch to hold the power.
   you will have a week link in the gearbox and depending on how much power you run, the drive shafts can also part company at the cv joint. Although this can happen more on turbo cars.
   
   i had the GMC setup.
   next time around im not going for the MF2, extra injectors and the sig con. i would prefer to go with a fully mappable standalone ecu setup, this will add ££ onto your setup as will the mapping costs.
   
   my clutch alone retailed at around £700.
   
   my advice would be to have a good think about what you want, how much power you want to run now and in the future, as you WILL get bored after a while and want more power. no good getting a small charger and deciding a year later you want a bigger one, not much of a difference in price from the off.
   i had a restrictor fitted into the charger i had to allow room for future improvements ;D
   to get really good reliable power, you will need a bottom end with a rebuild, forged rods and low comp pistons etc another few £K
   
   dont skimp on anything, best to save you cash for now, rather than waste it, as its easily done.
   
   dont forget you need a good clutch, brake setup, exhaust manifold, diff if your doing track days and want to put the power down, that there is another few £K
9. Andy_K Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2004 in the garage trying to fix the car Posts: 5882 Mondeo st tdci & Supercharged vts

   #9 17th July 2010, 09:51

   Yep, deffinately dont over look decent brakes. I drove a 200bhp supercharged vts with standard brakes and it was not fun lol
10. maddison_vts Established Member Joined: Sep 2008 Torbay Posts: 1565 2000 phase 2 Saxo VTS Turbo 2000 Nissan 200sx S14a

    #10 17th July 2010, 11:18

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Andy_K Yep, deffinately dont over look decent brakes. I drove a 200bhp supercharged vts with standard brakes and it was not fun lol

    mine still has standard brakes and i've got more power than that at the wheels... makes for a very fun drive haha
11. Andy_K Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2004 in the garage trying to fix the car Posts: 5882 Mondeo st tdci & Supercharged vts

    #11 17th July 2010, 11:38

    ^^ Your obviously braver than me lol
12. atspeedracing Frequent Poster Joined: Aug 2008 ESSEX Posts: 727 106 GTi Turbo

    #12 19th July 2010, 10:00

    people somehow manage to break the ma box on relatively standard cars, so turbo/supercharger is of course going to prevent problems with power/torque increases. supercharging is much kinder to the transmission over turbo, as obviosuly the power comes in much smoother so there isnt that "bang" of power that comes in over a thousand rpm or so.
    
    mechanical sympathy on gearboxes may save synchromeshes if you dont smash it in and out of gear, with lightning fast aggressive changes, particularily on downchange. but nothing stops the fact when applying full power and torque, the gears tear themselves apart - other than not using the power available - in which case there would be no point going turbo or supercharger in the first place and IMO a world not worth living in lol
    
    the BE4 gearbox conversion we sell is certainly a cheaper option than straight cut gearsets for the MA box, which often are not guaranteed for the power expected from turbo/supercharged 106/saxo - so we think its pretty good value.
    
    people often overlook transmission when building a highly modified car, happy to spend thousands on the engine making the power (and rightly so, powers good ) but transmission upgrades are always a bit of a sting when you have to buy them. especailly when you start looking at professional motorsport gearboxes etc, where they are often double the price of the engine!
    
    
    
    when i was running the MA box i never suffered a driveshaft failure (except from when an engine mount broke off the gearbox and pulled the shaft out, but cant count that one as a breakage)
    
    they are pretty strong - within reason, examle: dont go bashing over rumble strips or over jumps at full boost and landing with your foot nailed to the floor! or piling on armfuls of lock and lighting the tyres up, theres a bit of mechanical sympathy/common sense on that one!
    
    im not sure how standard shafts would get on with sticky drag slicks - so thats why we made our custom shafts to the specifications they are, to make sure they can!
    
    - colin.
13. user_15989 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: May 2007 Posts: 4857

    #13 19th July 2010, 11:12

    You can use the larger 306 outer CV if you start to get problems with the shafts. A lot of the rally guys have done this for years. Si on here has done the mod to fit them in to the Saxo strut.
14. maddison_vts Established Member Joined: Sep 2008 Torbay Posts: 1565 2000 phase 2 Saxo VTS Turbo 2000 Nissan 200sx S14a

    #14 19th July 2010, 11:15

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by atspeedracing the BE4 gearbox conversion we sell is certainly a cheaper option than straight cut gearsets for the MA box, which often are not guaranteed for the power expected from turbo/supercharged 106/saxo - so we think its pretty good value. - colin.

    any time i've ever killed a box is when it has lost and then regained grip suddenly and then stripped the gear. another favourite was the casings breaking which often happened on launch or when going into the lower gears (2nd, 3rd)
    
    i've changed the way i drive to hopefully extend the life of the gearbox, if the car loses grip, i'll back off to re-gain traction so it doesn't just suddenly get traction by hitting anti skid etc. and i don't really ever launch it now either. if i continue to drive it with a bit of mechanical sympathy like how i am doing now, what bhp/toque do you think i can put through the standard transmission?
    i want to get more power out of mine, but not if it will make a massive effect to the reliability!
15. atspeedracing Frequent Poster Joined: Aug 2008 ESSEX Posts: 727 106 GTi Turbo

    #15 19th July 2010, 12:07

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by maddison_vts any time i've ever killed a box is when it has lost and then regained grip suddenly and then stripped the gear. another favourite was the casings breaking which often happened on launch or when going into the lower gears (2nd, 3rd) i've changed the way i drive to hopefully extend the life of the gearbox, if the car loses grip, i'll back off to re-gain traction so it doesn't just suddenly get traction by hitting anti skid etc. and i don't really ever launch it now either. if i continue to drive it with a bit of mechanical sympathy like how i am doing now, what bhp/toque do you think i can put through the standard transmission? i want to get more power out of mine, but not if it will make a massive effect to the reliability!

    usually the casings break down to excessive movement of the engine due to extreme torque, i broke a couple where it ripped the studs or casing off the top of the gearbox - so yes, on and off the throttle, launching etc can cause this - but i found casings survived once grp A mounts were fitted all round.
    
    regards to physical gear breakages on launch, can happen if people dont take up the slack in the driveline, i.e hold the revs and sidestep the clutch. the car should be held on the clutch with the transmission ready to go "take up the slack" and usually they jsut wheelspin in 1st and second anyway so there is very little stress on the gears. 3rd, 4ths and 5ths were prime candidates for breaking in my experience - obviously once there was enough traction to warrant any torque through the gearbox and driveline.
    
    backing off the throttle is the correct (and faster) way to drive if the car loses traction, or you bump a wheel over a rumble strip etc. rally cars suffer a lot because the wheels are constantly going airborn, speeding up then hitting the ground again - so major strain there - something has to give! either a shaft or a gear (our custom shafts for the BE kits are designed to twist in this kind of environment so they dont snap ) so yes your doing the correct thing by backing off the power until the tyres are settled on the road again, including wheelspin or tyre hopping. its the rapid "bang bang bang bang" of the gears driving and losing drive that will cause them to shatter, i had it happen on one of my boxes when i had a misfire problem, trying to locate it on the dyno and it ended up breaking 5th gear lol.
    
    to be honest i think its more "correct" driving than being sympathetic.
    
    we have done cars with around 250 lb ft that have survived (so far) on an MA box. others have blown up very quickly with only around 200lb-ft. so theres no real answer other than its not a case of will it blow up, its a question of when lol. as mentioned before though going back to original topic of supercharging, the gearbox will survive much better supercharged than than turbocharged due to the way it applies its power and torque.
    
    i used to cross my fingers everytime i applied full power - would be a good night out if i managed to get home after a night driving about without it breaking a gear lol. always in the back of your mind "will it break this time?" im pleased to say now im on the BE box i dont have to worry, i can just drive and a$$ about and enjoy my car
    
    - colin.

    2 users thanked this post: bluenotesmiley, maddison_vts
16. user_15989 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: May 2007 Posts: 4857

    #16 19th July 2010, 12:09

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by maddison_vts any time i've ever killed a box is when it has lost and then regained grip suddenly and then stripped the gear. another favourite was the casings breaking which often happened on launch or when going into the lower gears (2nd, 3rd) i've changed the way i drive to hopefully extend the life of the gearbox, if the car loses grip, i'll back off to re-gain traction so it doesn't just suddenly get traction by hitting anti skid etc. and i don't really ever launch it now either. if i continue to drive it with a bit of mechanical sympathy like how i am doing now, what bhp/toque do you think i can put through the standard transmission? i want to get more power out of mine, but not if it will make a massive effect to the reliability!

    Many use a LSD to help maintain traction and reduce the chance of this happening. A few people have also welded up there diffs. I would imagine it would be appealing for the road but if your only driving in a strait line it should be fine. There are also some using traction control to help reduce the shock upon losing and regaining traction.
17. xxo0pko0xx Established Member Joined: May 2009 cleethorpes, Lincolnshire Posts: 1830 Astra 2006 (55) 1.9 cdti 150 sri 192hp 322ftlb

    #17 19th July 2010, 12:15

    I think th
18. xxo0pko0xx Established Member Joined: May 2009 cleethorpes, Lincolnshire Posts: 1830 Astra 2006 (55) 1.9 cdti 150 sri 192hp 322ftlb

    #18 19th July 2010, 12:16

    IMO ask raunchz he building a supercharged vts. Isn't most bits to get max power is a high peromace rotrex, intercooler, 2 oil coolers( one for car and one for charger), diesiel rad and a complete engine rebuild including ph3/4 cams, forged pistons and a baffled sump?? For transmission do people still use quafle setups?? Oh don't forget a more stronger clutch to hold the power. Not cheap bud if your pockets arnt deep just deal with a low boost turbo
19. VTSTomE Established Member Joined: Apr 2008 Hereford Posts: 1381 Indigo 16v Rallye + 2 VTS's

    #19 19th July 2010, 12:24

    Some good info in there!
20. atspeedracing Frequent Poster Joined: Aug 2008 ESSEX Posts: 727 106 GTi Turbo

    #20 19th July 2010, 14:05

    with regards to welding diffs on FWD. NOT FOR ROAD USE. you WILL snap shafts when trying to turn a tight corner or reversing. we do a lot of short circuit oval race cars with welded diffs, have to be so careful manouevering them around, cant apply hardly any steering input when reversing - its like a 30 point turn! lol.
    
    only welding i have done on stock diffs is weld the crownwheel to the diff itself, as these have a tendancy to spin off!! bit of a poor design that.
    
    

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by xxo0pko0xx IFor transmission do people still use quafle setups?? Oh don't forget a more stronger clutch to hold the power. Not cheap bud if your pockets arnt deep just deal with a low boost turbo

    in my own opinion i found ATB type differentials not particularly successful on big power FWD - cornering was ok, it was just keeping it in a straight line that was the issue. a plate type diff works MUCH better - especially when it comes to straight line stability.
    
    the clutch we have had good results with is a large single plate helix clutch, direct fitment, and costs around £325+vat. we have used these over 350bhp for road use - seem ok on track too. still using one on my own car and appears successful
    
    - colin.

    1 user thanked this post: bluenotesmiley
21. maddison_vts Established Member Joined: Sep 2008 Torbay Posts: 1565 2000 phase 2 Saxo VTS Turbo 2000 Nissan 200sx S14a

    #21 19th July 2010, 16:38

    thanks for that, i'm using a quiafe atb and with what i spent on that i'll keep rather than going for a plated diff, even if they are better!
    
    was just looking into going bigger power to take in over 300bhp, realistically it will cost me about an extra 1k to get the car to this and have the engine reliable too.
    
    however, there will be no point in doing this if the ma box with atb diff won't take it! so do you have no issues with the be gearbox?
    
    how much money am i looking at to put a be box in there?